OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Nimbus125]

phantom
Noun
a person or thing of merely illusory power, status, efficacy, etc.

Adjective
of, relating to, or of the nature of a phantom; illusory

Palpatine's not the title character. The phantom menace is the Trade Federation: the thing of illusory status (as a villain, in this case). Palpatine's a real menace, not a phantom one; and the main antagonist of the series to boot.

Lucas has confirmed that Palpatine is the phantom menace, as (I think) the phantom part refers to the persona of a well-meaning senator that he puts on while secretly being a sith lord.

[Blatherskite]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

The other thing I hated about ESB was the entire "Luke I am your father" reveal. When I saw it when it first came out, I assumed Vader was lying, as did everyone else in my family. It wasn't until ROTJ came out that we conceded, reluctantly, that Vader WAS Luke's father, as ridiculously unbelievable as that was.

V: hey Siddy guess what happened with that Luke guy
S: I assume you must be contacting me to report he’s joined us, or failing that, died
S: since I seem to recall you promising something along those lines
S: also if you call me Siddy one more time I am officially changing your name to Darth Vaddy on all the official documents
V: nah the Luke guy fell down a shaft and my Force senses tell me he’s still alive
S: how did you manage to accomplish this particular military outcome using the tens of thousands of troops under your command
V: not important
V: the important part is
S: oh no
V: just before he fell down the shaft
S: please tell me you didn’t
V: I was like “Obi-Wan never told you the truth”
S: Vader what is WRONG with you
V: “I am your father!”
S: do you HAVE to try to convince every Jedi that you’re their father

V: and Luke was like “No! That’s not true! That’s impossible!”
S: very clever of him
S: not really
S: it just shows he’s smarter than a dead womprat
V: and I said, “Search your feelings, you know it to be true.”
S: damn it Vader we’ve TALKED about this
S: one of the biggest advantages we have is the Jedi’s religious attitude towards the Force
S: the way they talk about the Force like it’s a benevolent deity and train to fight blindfolded based on only their Force senses
S: most Jedi believe anything the Force tells them
S: not because they explicitly believe that’s a good idea but because it’s a reflex they don’t even notice
S: you’ve got to be subtle when you use that against them or it stops working
S: if Luke is next to a Sith Lord and suddenly his mystical connection to the universal life force tells him that Darth Vader is his daddy, he’s going to start wondering whether Sith can spoof his Force senses
V: nah he won’t question it
V: seriously Sids I think he bought it
V: he went “No, no” and let himself fall down the shaft
S: sounds like how people usually indicate they believe things
V: you had to be there I guess
S: look I had plans for this kid
S: plans that involved saying things to him that maybe, just maybe, he might have believed
S: now I’m going to tell him how dysfunctional the Republic was and he’s going to say back “yeah, right, and Vader told me he was my dad”
V: lol
S: Vader this isn’t funny
V: it’s totally funny
V: remember when I told Yoda I was his father?
V: green dude got this look on his face like he had absolutely no idea how to handle the situation
S: yes Vader
S: I remember the expression on Yoda’s face
S: because I was wearing exactly the same expression
S: we were in the middle of a god-damned lightsaber battle when my apprentice pulls this
S: I couldn’t look Yoda in the eyes
S: he yelled at me to realize what my service had done to you
S: how the Dark Side twists all those who use it
S: and I was like “YODA I DID NOT DO THIS HE WAS ALREADY LIKE THIS WHEN I FOUND HIM”
V: lol
S: Vader
S: I am considering reviving an old Sith tradition
S: even though it makes very little sense from the standpoint of accruing loyal human resources
S: and telling this Luke guy he can have your job if he kills you
V: he’s not gonna kill me
S: I’m not joking here
S: I will hit the remote kill switch on your lightsaber and be like “Do it! Do it!”
V: he’s still not gonna kill me
S: yeah and why wouldn’t he
V: he thinks I’m his Dad

[Emanick]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

Hilarious. Magnificent. Exquisite.

[Sir_Norbert]

phantom
Noun
a person or thing of merely illusory power, status, efficacy, etc.

That's definition #3 from dictionary.com. However, the primary definition is "an apparition or specter", and that's what Palpatine is here: a shadow manipulating things from behind the scenes without allowing himself to be seen.

[pendell]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

Spectacular first post. I'd say it's 100% made of win except that it doesn't have anything to do with the OP of the thread, so I'd say only 99% full of win. Still the best I've seen in awhile.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

Nah, it's cool. Proper etiquette, by the way, is to sacrifice a peach tree, make a pie from its fruits and bake that with its own wood, then deposit 5 million USD, GBP, or EUR into a tropical tax haven account in my name, then inform me. And also mail me the pie.

I'll let it slide this time, but make sure you comply eventually.

[littlebum2002]

I may think those movies are a mess, but I still love em

I think this is the perfect way to describe the Prequels

[Fish]

Today I learned the shark is the protagonist of Jaws.

Today you can learn something else: protagonists have goals. The shark has no discernible goals. Even if we credit the shark with the nebulous goal of "eat" or "survive," the shark is not the protagonist. Brody is the protagonist; the shark (as well as the ineffective mayor) is the antagonist. That's because the overarching goal of the story itself is something like Keep The Beaches Safe. Jaws starts with a shark attack; the attacks continue; at the end, the attacks are resolved. (Or are they? Musical sting, cue inane sequel.)

Qui-Gon is not the protagonist, in my view; he is simply the Main Character — the perspective through which the story is viewed. There is a difference between the MC and the protagonist (outlined here), and I think it's an important distinction to make.

Shawshank Redemption. Protagonist: Andy Dufresne. Main character: Red.
To Kill a Mockingbird. Protagonist: Atticus Finch. Main character: Scout.
The Hound of the Baskervilles. Protagonist: Sherlock Holmes. Main character: Dr Watson.

The MC is the character we follow, even if their actions do not necessarily drive the plot, and through whose perspective we view the story. And speaking of story, we have to look at what the story itself is really about because stories have goals too (which is different from simply "what the protagonist wants"). The Story Goal of The Phantom Menace might be viewed as Resolve The Naboo Crisis or perhaps Replace Our Ineffective Leadership (in order to resolve the Naboo crisis). After all, that's where we start (Naboo is under threat) and where we end (the threat to Naboo is ended).

Framed this way, the antagonist is clearly Nute Gunray, who works against any solution to resolve the crisis. Nute pursues the crisis, although he is not behind it (or at least he is not alone).

So who is the protagonist? It's not Qui-Gon, who only pursues the Resolve goal at the beginning, and pursues the Replace Our Leadership goal not at all. Also, Qui-Gon is basically following orders (Valorum's, Yoda's, then Padme's) and doesn't have his own personal goals until he meets Anakin. Halfway through the movie Qui-Gon gets sidetracked by his own B Plot (called We Must Train The Boy), which calls into question his role as protagonist.

The protagonist is not Obi-Wan, for many of the same reasons as Qui-Gon; also, he is apolitical. Padme kinda sorta pursues the Resolve goal (somewhat ineffectively, because she "will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war"). She doesn't pursue the Replace Our Leadership goal until a) Qui-Gon suggests she come to Coruscant and b) Palpatine suggests the vote of no-confidence to her.

Only one character actively pursues the story goal throughout the entire film, never wavering in his dedication to it, and that's Palpatine. He's actually the one behind the Naboo crisis ("this scheme of yours has failed, my lord") and Palpatine is doing it for his own reasons ("Un-lim-i-ted-pow-er!") but he never changes his focus to something else. He started the crisis so he would be justified in pursuing power to "resolve" it.

The shark would only be the protagonist of Jaws if he was secretly trying to Keep The Beaches Safe and was attacking the beaches (like a white-hat hacker?) to prod the authorities into improving their beach safety.

[Peelee]

Today you can learn something else: protagonists have goals. The shark has no discernible goals. "

You do the shark a great disservice, sirrah!

Oh, also, the only goals Palpatine has are antagonostic, unless you view him and Sidious as different characters, in which case he has no goals (or at least none that drive the plot). So he's either an antagonist or a metaphorical shark, by your own definition.

Lastly, fun fact, if you play Jaws in reverse you get a movie about a shark who keeps throwing up people until they open a beach.

[Resileaf]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

For a first post, this was absolutely glorious. Thanks for sharing.

[Snails]

I agree with the gist of Fish's point. There is always a degree of fuzziness between Main Character and Protagonist. They certainly do not have to be one and the same, the example of Watson and Holmes is a good illustration of that.

A story does not need to have exactly one protagonist. It is certainly normal for every scene to have a specific protagonist, which does not have to be the overall primary protagonist. So when you tally things up, there is a lot of subjectivity on who the primary one is.

The "heroes" of Phantom Menace are racing around trying to defend the status quo. That does count as a goal, just like the samurai defending the village in The Seven Samurai better fit the protagonist hat than the literally nameless bandits. But in this case, Palpatine is really the one pulling the strings with a plan, so naming him as the primary protagonist makes sense to me.

BTW, I would argue that the One Ring is primary protagonist of specifically the director's cut of The Fellowship of the Ring, for similar reasons. Yes, I understand that seems weird.

[Kish]

Today you can learn something else: protagonists have goals. The shark has no discernible goals.

*raises a finger*

Even if we credit the shark with the nebulous goal of "eat" or "survive," the shark is not the protagonist.

Oh, if eating isn't a goal, never mind then.

(Don't take anything I say about Jaws too seriously. I've never seen it; everything I know about it is stuff I've heard. Not at all interested in horror movies.)

[mjasghar]

The prequels were let down by the wrong actor being chosen for the teenager anakin - if you don’t believe the relationship it falls flat
With the boy anakin it’s more difficult - getting a western child actor who physically looks like a slave isn’t going to be possible
The result is both castings take you out off the movie universe - whcuh is a shame when there are scenes that immerse you in it
Of course as with rotj there’s the issue that they deliberately added stuff to appeal to small kids for merchandising and that compromises the vision

[Peelee]

*raises a finger*

Oh, if eating isn't a goal, never mind then.

(Don't take anything I say about Jaws too seriously. I've never seen it; everything I know about it is stuff I've heard. Not at all interested in horror movies.)

For what it's worth, I wholly recommend it. I also hate horror movies, but it's not like typical horror movies (at least, not like most of the ones I've seen and how I imagine most others are). It's very character-driven, and mostly is a horror movie because it's a frightening scenario the characters are put in, especially the last third. Not to mention it's just an incredibly well-made film, and the terror is less immediate like jump-scares or being chased by a monster; the fear is a lot less visceral and just more chilling, especially with the lack of supernatural elements. I haven't seen Vertigo, but I would be impressed if even Hitchcock could use the dolly zoom as effectively as Spielberg did with Chief Brody. Those five seconds impart more emotional weight than some entire movies. And Quint's speech, especially after they've spent so long on the boat hunting the shark, is one of the most terrifying than several scenes with the shark, because it creates a profound sense of dread. It's arguably the best part of the movie. It's just a guy talking, telling a story from his past, no other sounds than the odd board creaking and the water lapping against the side of the boat, and it just chills you to the bone.

I hate horror movies, but damned if that's not a masterpiece.

[Fyraltari]

The prequels were let down by the wrong actor being chosen for the teenager anakin - if you don’t believe the relationship it falls flat

Hayden Christensen is pretty good actually. It's the dialog and directing that is terrible.

With the boy anakin it’s more difficult - getting a western child actor who physically looks like a slave isn’t going to be possible

Why? Slaves don't look like anything in particular, it's a social class not an ethnic group.

[Snails]

The prequels were let down by the wrong actor being chosen for the teenager anakin - if you don’t believe the relationship it falls flat

Yes and no.

I have no opinion about Hayden -- I simply have not seen him in other work.

I resist faulting the actor, when he was so completely set up for failure. There are just so many clear faults with the scenes he was supposed to carry, that I doubt success was possible for anyone. To my eye, Portman, a fine actress with significant experience under her belt already, was working so really hard to not fail at her own less demanding half.

Anakin's dialogue never rises above crude melodrama, except when stuff is exploding and he is allowed to make an attempt at humor. Carrying melodrama is harder than it looks, especially when a movie's pacing is all over the map.

A better actor than Christensen would tell the director he knows someone who can write even melodramatic dialogue that doesn't suck, and throw the script into the air.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why? Slaves don't look like anything in particular, it's a social class not an ethnic group.

To be fair, slaves aren't typically bright-eyed and rosy-cheeked with perfectly-coiffured hair. But that's a failure of makeup, not casting.

[Jasdoif]

Oh, also, the only goals Palpatine has are antagonostic, unless you view him and Sidious as different characters, in which case he has no goals (or at least none that drive the plot). So he's either an antagonist or a metaphorical shark, by your own definition.

But probably not a metantagonishark.


More seriously, Palpatine (and Sidious, just to clear I'm not separating them) isn't even an antagonist in The Phantom Menace; he's a background character. Sure, he's pulling all sorts of strings and stuff outside the story, but that's...well, outside the story. What does he actually do in the story? Unless my recall is way off, he says things to Nute Gunray and Darth Maul...who actually do the opposing against the characters we're following.

It's not that different from Hel in...whatever the current OotS book ends up being called. She's got the driving plan and goal, to be sure; but HPoH is the one who's been actively opposing the Order in pursuit of carrying it out.

[Peelee]

But probably not a metantagonishark.


More seriously

What is more serious than a metantagonishark? Do you not remember the Indianapolis?!?

[Fyraltari]

Yes and no.

I have no opinion about Hayden -- I simply have not seen him in other work.

I resist faulting the actor, when he was so completely set up for failure. There are just so many clear faults with the scenes he was supposed to carry, that I doubt success was possible for anyone. To my eye, Portman, a fine actress with significant experience under her belt already, was working so really hard to not fail at her own less demanding half.

Samuel Jackson as Windu also delivers some pretty wooden lines and come on, it's Sam Jackson!

Anakin's dialogue never rises above crude melodrama, except when stuff is exploding and he is allowed to make an attempt at humor. Carrying melodrama is harder than it looks, especially when a movie's pacing is all over the map.

A better actor than Christensen would tell the director he knows someone who can write even melodramatic dialogue that doesn't suck, and throw the script into the air.

Harrison Ford actually cut the middle man and rewrote a lor of his lines in the OT and he encouraged Hamill to do the same.

To be fair, slaves aren't typically bright-eyed and rosy-cheeked with perfectly-coiffured hair. But that's a failure of makeup, not casting.

That I can get behind.

But probably not a metantagonishark.


More seriously, Palpatine (and Sidious, just to clear I'm not separating them) isn't even an antagonist in The Phantom Menace; he's a background character. Sure, he's pulling all sorts of strings and stuff outside the story, but that's...well, outside the story. What does he actually do in the story? Unless my recall is way off, he says things to Nute Gunray and Darth Maul...who actually do the opposing against the characters we're following.

He talks Padmé into removing Valorum from power. That's literally it and is only important in the sequels.

It's not that different from Hel in...whatever the current OotS book ends up being called. She's got the driving plan and goal, to be sure; but HPoH is the one who's been actively opposing the Order in pursuit of carrying it out.

Yeah.

[Peelee]

Samuel Jackson as Windu also delivers some pretty wooden lines and come on, it's Sam Jackson!

While I agree with the overall point, that example is not as good as you think it is.

[Ruck]

I am tired of these mother-[BLEEP]ing Sith on this mother-[BLEEP]ing spaceship!

[Fyraltari]

While I agree with the overall point, that example is not as good as you think it is.

Tell me that Sam Jackson doesn't usually bring much more emotion* in his acting, I dare you, I double dare you!


*Yes I know, Jedi, but Windu is about to betray his principles there so that doesn't hold water.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, but the other side of the argument has an out-of-touch ruling class effectively saying "let them eat cake." C'mon, you know you want to make a wry commentary about that!

You can have BOTH! The force can be malevolent, and the Jedi can ALSO be an out of touch ruling class.

I wonder what the record for "most consecutive comic discussion threads derailed into Star Wars discussions" is around here.

I would offer 1154 as a possible number, except that IIRC the threads used to be monthly rather than one for every strip.

I mean, i'd argue Qui-Gon was an awful Jedi, whose poor decision making, and inability to find a currency exchange, is indirectly responsible for, like, every bad thing that happens across the saga, but i'm pretty sure that wasn't intentional.

I just assumed at the time that the Republic currency was not fully convertible, and wasn't worth the paper it's printed on outside of the reach of the Republic's guns.

I've been in plenty of foreign countries, I've never had trouble converting my money. But old Soviet Rubles wouldn't easily convert back when. This assumption did not improve my opinion of the Old Republic, but did make the existence of a large separatist movement far more understandable.

"Literally the first store we went into, which is already one of the smaller establishments, had exactly what we needed, and the incredibly sketchy shopkeep gave me the oldest sales trick in the book by trying to convince me it was the only place that'd have what we need.

Time to stop lookin'!" - QGJ

" Best thing to do is bet our ride against the part needed to fix it. Someone is getting a completely functioning ship, even if we have to be stranded on this planet!"

This also did not help the case of the Old Republic as being a good government, remember, he's one of their primary diplomatic agents.

To be fair, slaves aren't typically bright-eyed and rosy-cheeked with perfectly-coiffured hair. But that's a failure of makeup, not casting.

IMAO slave children should usually be badly malnourished or show other signs of mistreatment.

Slavery makes little sense unless (a) the minimum living conditions/pay for the free are far above subsistence, (b) slaves are given living conditions that are not adequate to reliably raise a family, or (c) the primary motivation of owning a slave is something other than simple economics (such as the slave owner getting to enjoy having total power over someone else).

(a) is not the truth on Tatooine. (b) and (c) both lead to slave children being expected to show serious visual effects in terms of malnutrition or scarring from being slaves.

Given the availability of droids, we can largely eliminate economic reasons for owning non-droid slaves in the SW universe, so I'd tend to think owning living slaves in the SW universe is a reliable indicator of a power mad sadist as an owner. I expect someone who's spent years as the property of a power mad sadist in a society that doesn't care if the sadist leaves visible scars to have visible scars.

Ergo, Anakin does not look like a slave, but then, this doesn't bother me. I've seen plenty of productions where one or more actors don't really look like their role.

[Peelee]

Tell me that Sam Jackson doesn't usually bring much more emotion* in his acting, I dare you, I double dare you!

Look, dude gets great roles, but he's not that amazing. I'd call him good, not great.

[Jasdoif]

What is more serious than a metantagonishark?

First thing that comes to mind: suplexing a shark wearing a bolo tie.

He talks Padmé into removing Valorum from power. That's literally it and is only important in the sequels.

Hm, that's right, he did....Maybe I need to should watch The Phantom Menace again, it's been close to two decades at this point. I'm not Winter.

[Peelee]

This also did not help the case of the Old Republic as being a good government, remember, he's one of their primary diplomatic agents.

He's not, though. Everyone is surprised that Jedi were brought in to deal with this. Jedi were unofficial government agents, and not actually a part of the Republic government.

First thing that comes to mind: suplexing a shark wearing a bolo tie.

Wait, which one is wearing the bolo tie?

[Fyraltari]

I've been in plenty of foreign countries, I've never had trouble converting my money. But old Soviet Rubles wouldn't easily convert back when. This assumption did not improve my opinion of the Old Republic, but did make the existence of a large separatist movement far more understandable.

There is no paper in the Galaxy far far away. Except for extremely old books apparently.

IMAO slave children should usually be badly malnourished or show other signs of mistreatment.

Slavery makes little sense unless (a) the minimum living conditions/pay for the free are far above subsistence, (b) slaves are given living conditions that are not adequate to reliably raise a family, or (c) the primary motivation of owning a slave is something other than simple economics (such as the slave owner getting to enjoy having total power over someone else).

(a) is not the truth on Tatooine. (b) and (c) both lead to slave children being expected to show serious visual effects in terms of malnutrition or scarring from being slaves.

Given the availability of droids, we can largely eliminate economic reasons for owning non-droid slaves in the SW universe, so I'd tend to think owning living slaves in the SW universe is a reliable indicator of a power mad sadist as an owner. I expect someone who's spent years as the property of a power mad sadist in a society that doesn't care if the sadist leaves visible scars to have visible scars.

Ergo, Anakin does not look like a slave, but then, this doesn't bother me. I've seen plenty of productions where one or more actors don't really look like their role.

You are ignoring the other historical reason people used to have slaves: status symbol. Having well-fed slaves you don't actually need screams "I'm rich enough to afford it". Watto uses Anakin as a secondary vendor and a mechanic (and occasional pilot) and doesn't seem to use Shmi at all. He provides them with a several-room house and allows Anakin some considerable degree of free time. He isn't a power mad sadist so the idea that it's unrezalistic for a slave to be healthy is kind of baffling.

Look, dude gets great roles, but he's not that amazing. I'd call him good, not great.

Fine by me.

[Peelee]

You are ignoring the other historical reason people used to have slaves: status symbol. Having well-fed slaves you don't actually need screams "I'm rich enough to afford it".

In a world with droids, wouldn't high-end droids or civilian droid armies be an equivalent to that, though?

[Fyraltari]

In a world with droids, wouldn't high-end droids or civilian droid armies be an equivalent to that, though?

Not really? People don't really seem to care about droids that much in SW.

EDIT: Also both slavery and luxury items are inherently illogical.