Total War - Recommendations?

[Resileaf]

Actually, maybe it's just my not having played a Total War in such a long time, but it feels like the AI in general is more proactive in this one than in the older games. The early turns were just a whirlwind of "this faction has been destroyed" messages as early wars all across the map resulted in tons of extinctions, whittling things down already to a single-digit number of factions, which I don't think was the norm when I was playing Rome or Medieval 2. And really, it's mainly two major powers that have emerged at this point - myself in the west, and the Ikko Ikki in the center of the main island. Everybody else is more modestly sized, and I'm pretty sure the three out on the far east are in losing wars with the Ikko Ikki.

That's actually because every major faction begins at war with one or more neighbors, which means that they will begin fighting quickly. And some minor factions start in a very advantageous position over their rivals, so they are likely to wipe them out, if not in the first turn, definitely in the first few. Then things will just snowball, because those wars will have caused other clans to take notice of it and create militaries to contest their now stronger rivals.

The game is very much set up to erupt in war all across the country from the beginning to make sure that you yourself are forced to get stronger as well lest you be destroyed by your rivals who have never stopped conquering.

[Inarius]

Which meanwhile leaves me with two factions to deal with between me and them - and somewhat surprisingly, I won't be dealing with the one that swooped up half of the territory I was planning to conquer first. The other faction, the Chosokabe, who control the other western island, Shikoku, were in an alliance with me, but all of a sudden decided to call that off and then, not two turns later, declare war on me. With no apparent game plan either since all they did was start harassing my sea trade routes. So yeah, going to conquer myself Shikoku and then turn my attention back to the main island.

Thats a pretty good place to expand to for your faction. I think its the only place on the western third of the map that has the stone resource which is used to upgrade your castles to the last 2 tiers.

[Crow]

You're in the position now where you better start gearing up for total war. From this point out, you need to treat your expansion strategy as if you will be at war with every faction you border- and have a plan for it.

[Resileaf]

Keep a particularly close eye on your fame meter. It will get up with every battle you win and every province you conquer, and the moment it's filled up, the entire country will declare war on you. Do not let it take you by surprise, you'll have to make sure your economy is up to snuff before you jump into the realm divide.

[Zevox]

That's actually because every major faction begins at war with one or more neighbors, which means that they will begin fighting quickly. And some minor factions start in a very advantageous position over their rivals, so they are likely to wipe them out, if not in the first turn, definitely in the first few. Then things will just snowball, because those wars will have caused other clans to take notice of it and create militaries to contest their now stronger rivals.

The game is very much set up to erupt in war all across the country from the beginning to make sure that you yourself are forced to get stronger as well lest you be destroyed by your rivals who have never stopped conquering.

Eh, that'd explain all the faction wipes early on, but enemies still seem more proactive even given that, with things like the Bessho coming in and grabbing half of that other faction's territory once I had their armies' attention, or just the way I'm seeing a lot more enemy armies maneuvering about than I recall in older games. (Actually, I find it odd that the AI doesn't seem to like letting armies sit in cities in this one - I've had far more battle out in the open than I have at cities, just because they seem to like parking their armies outside for some reason.)

You're in the position now where you better start gearing up for total war. From this point out, you need to treat your expansion strategy as if you will be at war with every faction you border- and have a plan for it.

Keep a particularly close eye on your fame meter. It will get up with every battle you win and every province you conquer, and the moment it's filled up, the entire country will declare war on you. Do not let it take you by surprise, you'll have to make sure your economy is up to snuff before you jump into the realm divide.

Well, I'm pretty much ready for that anyway. I only border two factions, one of which, the Chosokabe, I'm at war with anyway, and the other, the Bessho, I've been worried could declare war on me at any time (we've been harassing each other with ninja and metsuke for a little while now), so I have had an army left behind to guard my borders with them. And I'm assembling another army on those borders so that I can hit them with two at once when I start my war with them, which is coming up soon.*

I have recently gotten the warning that the Shogun is getting nervous about my faction, so yeah, I guess that's coming up. Annoying to hear that literally everyone will declare war on me, but eh, I should be in good shape. Might have trouble on the seas if the Ikko Ikki become a problem before I've purged the Bessho navies, but otherwise it'll mostly be annoying that I can't take a couple of turns to recover from my war with the Bessho before I go to war with the Ikko Ikki.

*As far as my status goes, I've got control of most of Shikoku now. The Chosokabe surprisingly put up more of a fight than the other factions I've fought so far despite having only five provinces, I had to kill three good size armies during the war on Shikoku. And almost a fourth, but I took care of that one by assassinating the general and then bribing most of the army to switch sides** - which cost a pretty penny, but my economy is really good right now. But now they've got only token defenses at their last two cities and I have two armies to crush them with, so it's just a matter of a couple of turns of travel time before they're wiped out. Then I go after the Bessho, which will complete my control of the north-western corner of the main island, and then it's final boss battle with the Ikko Ikki, who are by far the biggest faction at this point, and Kyoto.

**Speaking of, holy hell agents are even more useful than I was expecting. I swear my Ninjas have killed more generals than my armies, and bribing armies is insanely powerful even if it is expensive, and surprisingly easy when there's no general. They might just have made them a bit too good, honestly.

[Blackhawk748]

Have you used a Geisha yet? Cuz Geisha are straight up BUUUUUULLLLLLLLSSSSSHHHHH************!!! Seriously, Geisha are flipping nuts, but I am gladthat the agents are so much better than they were in M2. I mean, I love M2, but the Diplomats are kinda meh (but thats more of the Diplo system sucking in general) Princesses are sporadic in usefulness, Spies are always solid and Assassins get used too much which make your King an evil jerk.

But ya, the whole contry will come down on you like the hammer of god, but thankfully half of them will ignore you as you're on the other side. Try doing it when you're the Oda. Its so much fun!! There's no sarcasm there, none at all.

[Crow]

You're going to love how this is the one Total War where the AI launch competent amphibious assaults.

[Zevox]

Have you used a Geisha yet? Cuz Geisha are straight up BUUUUUULLLLLLLLSSSSSHHHHH************!!! Seriously, Geisha are flipping nuts, but I am gladthat the agents are so much better than they were in M2. I mean, I love M2, but the Diplomats are kinda meh (but thats more of the Diplo system sucking in general) Princesses are sporadic in usefulness, Spies are always solid and Assassins get used too much which make your King an evil jerk.

But ya, the whole contry will come down on you like the hammer of god, but thankfully half of them will ignore you as you're on the other side. Try doing it when you're the Oda. Its so much fun!! There's no sarcasm there, none at all.

I have not used Geisha yet, no. I'm not far enough into the tech tree to have them, and the areas I've been focusing most on are the economics and katanas/archery trees, not the agents-related ones.

As for Medieval 2 agents, eh, to my recollection spies were the only really reliable ones. Diplomats were, well, the way diplomacy always has been in Total War, Princesses I don't even recall what they did, and assassins were one you tried to use but that often didn't work out. I recall it being very hard to raise an effective assassin in past games because they tended to have a high chance of dying if they failed - or at least a much higher one than ninja seem to have in Shogun 2 - so it was often difficult to get them past their first star or two and up to a level where they could actually be useful more than once in a blue moon. By comparison, the ninja in Shogun 2 escaping with their lives so much more often and getting to pick what bonuses they gain when they level up makes them so much more reliable it's not even funny.

You're going to love how this is the one Total War where the AI launch competent amphibious assaults.

Hm, well, the Chosokabe didn't exactly give me that impression, considering they started a war with me and then didn't send any troops over to my lands. But eh, my navies are pretty strong at this point, between having been built up to combat the Chosokabe's navy and all of the ships I captured from them. (Aside: it's very nice that auto-resolve is giving good results pretty reliably, often including capturing half or more of the enemy fleet.) As long as I can get the Bessho navy taken care of before the Ikko Ikki get on my case, I'm pretty confident I'll be good there.

[snowblizz]

Hm, well, the Chosokabe didn't exactly give me that impression, considering they started a war with me and then didn't send any troops over to my lands. But eh, my navies are pretty strong at this point, between having been built up to combat the Chosokabe's navy and all of the ships I captured from them. (Aside: it's very nice that auto-resolve is giving good results pretty reliably, often including capturing half or more of the enemy fleet.) As long as I can get the Bessho navy taken care of before the Ikko Ikki get on my case, I'm pretty confident I'll be good there.

Oh now I have to bring up one of the coolest moments in all of the Total Wars I've played.

I was playing Date up in the North and conqured my way half-way to Kyoto. About. My armies are all close to the front. When the Mori, out of nowhere, land an army (a big one, might been 2 even) a couple days' march from my capital. The Mori are based on the tip of the main island so literally other end. I have nothing assembled that can meet them but I start building units. And remember I can sap movement by attacking. So I send wave after wave of 1 unit spear ashigaru in a gerilla war that attack, run around and retreat from the battle when I can. Takes about 3 of those to pin down the enemy for their next turn. They also attack them and again I run around effctively losing but saving the unit. This means that for 5-6 rounds the enemy can't get anywhere. Whereupon first one, then another son of the Mori clan deem their leaders to be honourless (that's what they said) and join my clan with some troops. After 2 such defections I join them with some newly raised troops and crush the invasion about when I get enough troops to the area to challenge it anyway.

I don't know what in the game system that allowed it but it was absolutely awesome. So yes the enemy AI can do amphibious invasions.

[Zevox]

Well, the Chossokabe have fallen, and Shikoku is now fully mine. I quickly started my war with the Bessho, and it looks like they won't put up much of a fight. I took three provinces from them in the space of two turns.

And the moment I took the third, I triggered the Realm Divide. It's definitely a little intimidating have the entire world - or country in this case, but same thing as far as a Total War game is concerned - declare war on you at once, but considering my situation, I think I can handle it. It did hurt my economy, dropping my income per turn by a few grand from all the lost trade, but I'm still getting a good sum despite that.

The Bessho hit back with the one big army they had, but I managed to shatter it on defense despite being outnumbered. I liked the castle defense a bit better with the slightly bigger castle I had this time, but the spiderman-climbing thing still bugs me. Anyway, they don't look like they have much left to put up a fight with, so I might just mow them over quickly from here and be on to fighting the Ikko Ikki for dominance.

And actually, the other factions out east might have softened them up a bit for me. One of them that was almost extinct, the Takeda, has had a resurgence, and conquered a chunk of five or so of the Ikko Ikki provinces right out of the middle of their territory, effectively splitting it in two. That could be awfully convenient for me if it makes it hard for their western provinces to get any support from their eastern ones, which, as long as they don't agree to a truce due to the Realm Divide to focus on me, I'd hope it should.

[snowblizz]

the spiderman-climbing thing still bugs me.

This is an essential historical feature of Japanese castles. If the game "fixed" it it'd be like not being able to tear down castle walls in Medieaval.

[Resileaf]

Fair warning, the other nations will ally against you sooner than later. You can't expect them to fight one another for long, so take advantage of the few turns you have before they fully focus you down.
Keep as many agents as you can spare in enemy territory. You don't want to be surprised by the sudden appearance of a full stack somewhere you're not expecting. Especially because the AI is known to cheat and spawn armies in provinces they shouldn't be able to train units in. I think having line of sight on where they spawn their troops will keep them honest.
Furthermore, you can expect a lot of attempts at sending troops by ship. Keep your navies strong so they don't sneak past and start wrecking your undefended lands.
Finally, the Shogunate will spawn a few free armies when you attack Kyoto. Consider this their final boss battle.

[Zevox]

This is an essential historical feature of Japanese castles. If the game "fixed" it it'd be like not being able to tear down castle walls in Medieaval.

I might be willing to just accept that, had another poster not told me earlier that it carries over into Total War games that came after Shogun 2.

Fair warning, the other nations will ally against you sooner than later. You can't expect them to fight one another for long, so take advantage of the few turns you have before they fully focus you down.
Keep as many agents as you can spare in enemy territory. You don't want to be surprised by the sudden appearance of a full stack somewhere you're not expecting. Especially because the AI is known to cheat and spawn armies in provinces they shouldn't be able to train units in. I think having line of sight on where they spawn their troops will keep them honest.
Furthermore, you can expect a lot of attempts at sending troops by ship. Keep your navies strong so they don't sneak past and start wrecking your undefended lands.
Finally, the Shogunate will spawn a few free armies when you attack Kyoto. Consider this their final boss battle.

So I see. I must admit, I'm less fond of the Realm Divide concept after finding that it makes the other factions all set aside their other wars an ally against me. And significantly less fond if it's true that it also just lets the AI straight-up cheat and spawn armies they shouldn't be able to - at that point it's less of an extra end-game challenge and more just annoying BS.

Still, going well for me so far. The Bessho are dead, they pretty much rolled over and got conquered without any trouble after that opening series of attacks destroyed their only real armies. After that I had to dig in to face a couple of big armies the others sent after me though - one from the Ikko Ikki, one from the Takeda, both with a whole stack of generals leading them. My ninja managed to kill or wound their leadership (including both Daimyos, though they were the ones I only wounded) and sabotage them a couple of times to buy me time, which ultimately allowed me to shatter the armies themselves when they were leaderless or down to just one 1-star General. Now I just need to give my armies time to recover from those big battles, and I can start conquering Ikko Ikki territory. I'm at 27 provinces now, so I need another 12 provinces plus Kyoto to win. I already have one province adjacent to Kyoto conquered, but I think I should save them for last, particularly since it looks like the Shogun's faction is content to sit and just defend Kyoto rather than attack me directly.

My navies have managed to fight off enemy navies quite effectively too - and with all the captures, I'm only getting more and more control of the seas. Unless the Honma (the faction at the other end of the map, which I have yet to see any forces from) turn out to have invested heavily in naval technology and have a force of more advanced ships, I'm pretty sure I have little to worry about there.

[Crow]

I might be willing to just accept that, had another poster not told me earlier that it carries over into Total War games that came after Shogun 2.

Except that it really doesn't. Unless we're talking about Warhammer's themepark walls and quantum ladders.

There was no such ninja wall scaling in Rome 2 or Attila so far as I can remember.

[Zevox]

Except that it really doesn't. Unless we're talking about Warhammer's themepark walls and quantum ladders.

There was no such ninja wall scaling in Rome 2 or Attila so far as I can remember.

Really? Narkis said this back on page 1, in response to my initial reaction to finding out about the wall-climbing mechanic:

Unfortunately that's the case with all modern Total War games and one of the reasons I prefer the older ones. At least the units who climb walls get tired, so the defender still has some sort of advantage.

I was surprised to hear that, since I'd been assuming it was something specific Shogun 2 and Japanese-style castles, but nobody contradicted him, so I thought that he must be correct. Is that not the case?

[Crow]

Units in Warhammer have ladders that they pull from their asses. It also didn't have an entire settlement, but rather a section of wall you attack in siege battles. I don't know if that changed in Warhammer 2 because I frankly found Warhammer to be awful for me.

In Rome and Attila the lesser settlements have weak spots you can get units in; but heavily-fortified locations can't be climbed into.

[Resileaf]

Units in Warhammer have ladders that they pull from their asses. It also didn't have an entire settlement, but rather a section of wall you attack in siege battles. I don't know if that changed in Warhammer 2 because I frankly found Warhammer to be awful for me.

In Rome and Attila the lesser settlements have weak spots you can get units in; but heavily-fortified locations can't be climbed into.

To be fair, the ladders in Warhammer only appear if you have siege weapons built to assault a city. If you don't have siege weapons, you can't attack at all, even if you would have ladders otherwise.
Ladders are more intended to be a kind of anti-frustration measure for siegers so the loss of all their siege weapons is not an instant loss for their assault.

[veti]

Infantry units in Empire, three years before Shogun 2, come equipped with grappling hooks and ropes as standard.

But the thing is, the attackers can only climb so fast, and they get very tired doing it, so walls are still powerful even in the age of universal cannon.

[caden_varn]

@Zevox: You mentioned that you like to build up and slowly but surely paint the map your color- For Shogun 2, you may want to download a mod to remove the time restrictions on the campaign then. The time limits can be quite restrictive, and in the short victories in particular, you're going to have to rush near the end if you wait too long. Rome 2 was really bad with this at first, but eventually CA greatly relaxed the restrictions to the point I didn't so much notice it.
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What mods would you suggest for this? I tried Shogun 2 many years ago, but I could never get into it - if I remember correctly I just felt far too rushed to enjoy it & pretty soon gave up.

[Crow]

What mods would you suggest for this? I tried Shogun 2 many years ago, but I could never get into it - if I remember correctly I just felt far too rushed to enjoy it & pretty soon gave up.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think modding this may be as easy as changing one value in the desc_strat (or equivalent) file.

[caden_varn]

I'll have a play with this, thanks for the info...

[Zevox]

Well, the end is in sight. I've taken a big chunk of Ikko Ikki territory, almost the entire western half of their empire, and basically have Kyoto surrounded. I've had to fight off a number of Ikko Ikki and Takeda armies, but after the first few they've tended to consist mostly of Ashigaru units, so they've been much less trouble. The Ikko Ikki and Takeda daimyos are dead, one killed by my Ninja and the other slain in battle when I conquered his capital city, depriving them of their best generals. And my navies have easy control of the seas at this point. The only real complication I'm facing is trying to keep religious unrest from the Ikko Ikki's religion in all these territories I've conquered down.

I'm at 35/40 provinces in 1570, so plenty of time to spare, and there's two more lightly-defended Ikko Ikki provinces that I should be able to grab quickly. Time to begin preparations to take Kyoto and finish this up.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would it be okay to ask about other Total War games here, or should I start my own thread for that? I've been struggling with Thrones of Britannia after the final DLC and updates basically rewrote the game's rules.

[The Jack]

You killed a daimyo with a ninja?
It defo wasn't shingen, and was just their 1/2 star replacement after a series of takeda defeats, right?

[Kadesh]

Would it be okay to ask about other Total War games here, or should I start my own thread for that? I've been struggling with Thrones of Britannia after the final DLC and updates basically rewrote the game's rules.

Sure, what's the issue you are having?

[Zevox]

You killed a daimyo with a ninja?
It defo wasn't shingen, and was just their 1/2 star replacement after a series of takeda defeats, right?

Not sure what "shingen" means, but no replacement as far as I'm aware. He was a full 6 star general, so I assume it was their first daimyo. Even my best ninja had only around a 50-50 shot of success, but after a few tries (and having wounded him instead of killed on a couple of previous attempts), I won that coinflip.

[Resileaf]

Not sure what "shingen" means, but no replacement as far as I'm aware. He was a full 6 star general, so I assume it was their first daimyo. Even my best ninja had only around a 50-50 shot of success, but after a few tries (and having wounded him instead of killed on a couple of previous attempts), I won that coinflip.

He speaks of Takeda Shingen, the starting Daimyo of the Takeda clan in the game. He's in disbelief that you managed to kill one of the most powerful Daimyo with a ninja. XD

[The Glyphstone]

He speaks of Takeda Shingen, the starting Daimyo of the Takeda clan in the game. He's in disbelief that you managed to kill one of the most powerful Daimyo with a ninja. XD

He tripped on a banana peel while walking down the stairs?

[Zevox]

He speaks of Takeda Shingen, the starting Daimyo of the Takeda clan in the game. He's in disbelief that you managed to kill one of the most powerful Daimyo with a ninja. XD

Oh. Well, hey, like I said earlier, agents are powerful in this game. The ninja who did it was maxed out, with an effective assassination rating of 12 stars and several bonuses to his critical success chance, and even he was a coin flip to do it and only managed after multiple tries, some of which only wounded him, so it's not like it was easy.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sure, what's the issue you are having?

It's more how to juggle a host of issues, especially in the early game. Back before the updates and stuff, shortly after the game's release, I had a quite successful campaign as Mide, and I wanted to go back and play it "properly" now that it looks like CA is "done" with Thrones of Britannia, and I'm finding the beginning much more difficult despite playing on Normal difficulty like last time. My expansion options always seem frustrated by Airgialla, since they swoop in and take territory from my immediate neighbors that I wanted (Brega in one playthrough, where I helped them against Dyflin, and in another where I conquered them instead they marched into Breifne, my next conquest target, because Breifne had started a war with Ailech, Airgialla's master and my ally). And my army building seems to be going a lot slower than that of my rivals, who are deploying stacks of 14 or even 19 while I'm struggling to get even one stack up to 10 troops.

I'm also having difficulty keeping my populace fed and my nobles happy at the same time, since a lot of them are asking for agricultural estates. When I have Agricultural estates, they provide extra food that my army needs, but when I give them to my nobles, that bonus flips to a penalty, and before I know it I'm dealing with a food shortage on top of rebellions in my conquered regions that take food-producing towns from me and making the shortage worse. Add to that the fact that my Legitimacy keeps tanking and it creates a snowball effect where I can't keep my realm under control and am spending more time defending what little I have while other territories fight each other around me, something I eventually can't keep up when I finally become targeted from outside.

In short, I'm sort of struggling with my opening moves, as with these updates the game is much more challenging than it was at launch (and for the record I do think the changes they've made ARE for the better, I'm just really having a hard time relearning the game). I'm certain there's a way to get "over the hump" so to speak and get to a point where my own progress snowballs into me conquering Ireland and beyond, but I'm having a hard time figuring out that way...and Mide is supposed to be one of the easier factions to start as!