What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

why, in this universe... would they not have a plan for her?

For the same reason most dog owners don't have a plan for their eldest puppy.

What kind of putzes would the Gods have to be to not think that she is important?

The intelligent kind that recognise a fanatic that can't be trusted not to jump to conclusions on flimsiest of evidence, hovering so close to the "good" line (and the mental breakdown line) that expecting her to do anything other than fall is indeed a putz move, and they aren't that stupid.

Grey Wolf

[Aquillion]

I think most of the OOTS gods simply aren't that competent, alert, or intelligent. Remember the godsmoot - the vast majority of them voted based on really terrible criteria (even the nay votes.) Even if they ultimately voted no, there's no real reason to think the Southern Pantheon is any better. I suspect they had only a bare understanding of who Miko was up until she screwed up badly enough to require their direct attention.

Keep in mind that gods are permitted to give instructions to people who pray for guidance - we saw that with Loki. Miko, for all her faults, prayed for guidance constantly. Yes, we can blame her for thinking that she was so important and special that the gods would have a specific plan for her, but, well... she's the most powerful Paladin in the entire region and was dealing with a direct threat to the gates.

It's not a stretch for her to expect that one of the twelve gods would maybe devote some tiny modicum of attention and direction to their most powerful paladin when she's dealing with a situation that does, in fact, threaten the world itself. All it would have taken is one message saying something along the lines of "despite their irreverence, the OOTS is trustworthy; work with them to defend the gates." Or "if you get the chance, you need to destroy Xykon's phylactery." Or anything like that. Miko expecting that sort of direction was not arrogance - if anything, while she ultimately screwed up, her constant attempts to get direction from her deities was humility.

Her real mistake was assuming that the gods cared more about the fate of this individual world than, in fact, they actually did. That's arrogance of a sort, I guess?

The intelligent kind that recognise a fanatic that can't be trusted not to jump to conclusions on flimsiest of evidence, hovering so close to the "good" line (and the mental breakdown line) that expecting her to do anything other than fall is indeed a putz move, and they aren't that stupid.

If they were aware of all that, it would have been more important for them to have a plan for her, not less! They don't need a plan for, say, O-Chul, whose judgment can generally be trusted. But if they gave their divine blessings to Miko, knowing that she's Miko, it seems like it would have been reasonable for them to occasionally respond to her prayers with a gentle (or not-so-gentle) nudge to ensure that she stayed on-task.

And, again, to her credit, she asked them for direction constantly, and we know gods are permitted to answer such prayers to an extent. So I feel like the most logical answer (knowing what we know about the gods) is that they genuinely didn't care and didn't see the mission of the Sapphire Guard as worth their direct attention, because they've gone through so many worlds in the past that the survival of this one in particular isn't a huge deal to most of them.

They didn't expect Miko to screw up that badly, mind. That's why they revoked her powers. But they didn't really care much beyond that.

Another indicator: The one action we saw them take during that plot arc, aside from making Miko fall, was preventing Thor from helping Durkon... in a situation that, again, risked the death of this entire world if his team lost. This suggests to me that they cared more about their turf and pride and so on than whether this world survives or not. Miko fell because she violated her oaths so severely that it insulted the gods themselves, not because they cared about the long-term impact of what she did.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The pickiest of nits: (humanoid).

Nope. Humans are Humanoid (human); human liches are Undead (augmented humanoid, human).

Oh, NoHax, you sweet summer child.

Let me ask you a question. In a universe where the Gods are objectively real, and objectively manifest miraculous powers, and objectively have this vast celestial bureaucracy that monitors their mortal followers' every word, thought and deed, and where Miko just so happens to be second-in-command of a major religious organisation charged with safeguarding both all mortal souls and the Gods themselves, and is perhaps the single most powerful paladin currently in their service... why, in this universe... would they not have a plan for her? What kind of putzes would the Gods have to be to not think that she is important?

I can't tell if you're serious or not. In case you are, let me point out that A. the gods have different priorities than what mortals would expect (exhibit A, if only by virtue of being one of the first in the comic) and B. the gods are not all that good at executing on the plans they do make (exhibit A for being the most extreme).

-snip-

You're right, there are a lot of things the Twelve Gods could do to stop Miko from going completely around the bend. Rather than quibbling over whether or not this would work, I'd like to point out that there are lots of things the gods could do to prevent all sorts of tragedies.
Do I think the gods should be criticized for not bothering to use their divine powers to do more than empower a handful of mortals, apparently with minimal psychiatric evaluation? Yup. Do I think it's out of character for them? Nope. And until the case of Dragon vs. Azure City finally gets filed, I don't think we need to worry about much else.

[Aquillion]

You're right, there are a lot of things the Twelve Gods could do to stop Miko from going completely around the bend. Rather than quibbling over whether or not this would work, I'd like to point out that there are lots of things the gods could do to prevent all sorts of tragedies.
Do I think the gods should be criticized for not bothering to use their divine powers to do more than empower a handful of mortals, apparently with minimal psychiatric evaluation? Yup. Do I think it's out of character for them? Nope. And until the case of Dragon vs. Azure City finally gets filed, I don't think we need to worry about much else.

But:

1. They have a greater degree of responsibility for Miko, because they empowered her.

2. The gods are restrained in what they can do in many ways - they can't just act freely. But one of the few ways we know they can act is by answering prayers from the faithful. And Miko constantly asked them for direction.

3. Most of those other tragedies weren't world-threatening. This one potentially was. Not only that, it was exactly the specific threat that Miko was supposedly empowered and sworn to deal with as their champion.

She made a lot of mistakes, but I think it was reasonable of her to expect the gods to take thirty seconds of their time to give her at least some vague guidance as to how to protect the gates, given how serious the crisis was and given her role as their champion.

[Ruck]

Incredible that Lacuna manages to be condescending in a post that's basically "Actually, Miko was right to think she was Special and Chosen and could do no wrong."

[factotum]

At the time. Now, O-Chul and Lien probably have a level or two on him.

No "probably" about it, Hinjo confirms it in this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html

Fifth panel: "I'm more useful organising things here than I would be as another sword arm...especially since both O-Chul and Lien managed to gain a few levels once we left Azure City, and I didn't..."

[NoHaxJustPi]

Incredible that Lacuna manages to be condescending in a post that's basically "Actually, Miko was right to think she was Special and Chosen and could do no wrong."

I was actually trying to figure out how it could be sarcasm, because I thought there was no way someone could be serious when saying Miko was right about that.

[Squire Doodad]

No "probably" about it, Hinjo confirms it in this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html

Fifth panel: "I'm more useful organising things here than I would be as another sword arm...especially since both O-Chul and Lien managed to gain a few levels once we left Azure City, and I didn't..."

Did O-Chul get some sort of experience bonus for enduring all of the traps and torture and whatnot from Xykon and RC? Or is it that he actually beat up a couple of the monsters and so that gave him massive experience in combination with the circumstances?

[Peelee]

Did O-Chul get some sort of experience bonus for enduring all of the traps and torture and whatnot from Xykon and RC? Or is it that he actually beat up a couple of the monsters and so that gave him massive experience in combination with the circumstances?

He's a Saiyan.

[hamishspence]

Did O-Chul get some sort of experience bonus for enduring all of the traps and torture and whatnot from Xykon and RC? Or is it that he actually beat up a couple of the monsters and so that gave him massive experience in combination with the circumstances?

He may have gotten Roleplaying Experience for all his conversations with the MitD - especially considering the result of the MiTD turning away from loyalty to Xykon and Redcloak.

[Squire Doodad]

He may have gotten Roleplaying Experience for all his conversations with the MitD - especially considering the result of the MiTD turning away from loyalty to Xykon and Redcloak.

So, I send my character to prison, chat up the jailer for a few months (ultimately convincing them that I'm innocent or wrongly imprisoned), beat up any other prisoner who tries to fight me, and the combination of the two will bring me up a level or two?
And I can - in theory - do that repeatedly?
Low Epic shortly after beating the first major boss, here I come!

[factotum]

Pretty sure surviving all those near-death experiences Xykon put him into (including punching out an acid-breathing shark, let's not forget!) ought to have been worth a bit of experience!

[Keltest]

So, I send my character to prison, chat up the jailer for a few months (ultimately convincing them that I'm innocent or wrongly imprisoned), beat up any other prisoner who tries to fight me, and the combination of the two will bring me up a level or two?
And I can - in theory - do that repeatedly?
Low Epic shortly after beating the first major boss, here I come!

Sure, as long as you can survive being in prison for years at a time. And have the patience to roleplay that.

[woweedd]

Sure, as long as you can survive being in prison for years at a time. And have the patience to roleplay that.

And the DM doesn't listen to your plan, then look at you over his cup of coffee, and say "Dude, come on".

[Peelee]

And the DM doesn't listen to your plan, then look at you over his cup of coffee, and say "Dude, come on".

Or sip their coffee and say, "very well. Of course, your party and the first major boss were actually adventuring and gaining XP much faster, so now you're hopelessly outclassed. So, shall we start over?"

[Squire Doodad]

Or sip their coffee and say, "very well. Of course, your party and the first major boss were actually adventuring and gaining XP much faster, so now you're hopelessly outclassed. So, shall we start over?"

Next thing you are going to tell me that spending 127 hours min-maxing my units before completing Chapter 2 won't make sense!

[Peelee]

Next thing you are going to tell me that spending 127 hours min-maxing my units before completing Chapter 2 won't make sense!

I hope not, I did that in Fable!

[MReav]

At the time. Now, O-Chul and Lien probably have a level or two on him.

I never really got how Lien pulled ahead of him since she was in the same situations Hinjo was for the most part.

[Doug Lampert]

So, I send my character to prison, chat up the jailer for a few months (ultimately convincing them that I'm innocent or wrongly imprisoned), beat up any other prisoner who tries to fight me, and the combination of the two will bring me up a level or two?
And I can - in theory - do that repeatedly?
Low Epic shortly after beating the first major boss, here I come!

It's 3.5, you're supposed to have 4 patrol encounters on average per adventuring day. If you do that and get no quest rewards or roleplaying rewards, you hit level 21 after 67 days of adventuring.

So you're going to go up a level or two every few MONTHS of hazardous living in a dangerous prison where the jailor does stuff like drop you in a tank with an acid-breathing shark and figure that's a significant gain when it takes months to level?

The guy who went to bard camp and came out at level 1 to a life of adventure has a "what I did on my summer vacation report" that includes gaining 20 levels and going epic, and also includes that he had time off for Disney and a beach holiday along the way.

[Vinyadan]

I never really got how Lien pulled ahead of him since she was in the same situations Hinjo was for the most part.

She's a paladin with a shark mount and a ring of waterbreathing, which means that she could go into the sea and look for baddies to smite.

[Squire Doodad]

I hope not, I did that in Fable!

Huh, I remember doing it in FFT more than anything else...
That neat trick where you level as a unit with spectacular stat growths, then level down as a Bard...fun times. Shame it made everything easy when you are literally superhuman.

It's 3.5, you're supposed to have 4 patrol encounters on average per adventuring day. If you do that and get no quest rewards or roleplaying rewards, you hit level 21 after 67 days of adventuring.

So you're going to go up a level or two every few MONTHS of hazardous living in a dangerous prison where the jailor does stuff like drop you in a tank with an acid-breathing shark and figure that's a significant gain when it takes months to level?

The guy who went to bard camp and came out at level 1 to a life of adventure has a "what I did on my summer vacation report" that includes gaining 20 levels and going epic, and also includes that he had time off for Disney and a beach holiday along the way.

Point taken. I assume this is from level one? So 4*67=268 roughly same level random encounters to reach level 21, meaning one level per 12.7619 encounters, though I imagine it will start with fewer encounters and slowly gets higher. That actually makes sense, though playing any JRPG will make you be completely flabbergasted by the encounters per party level. Speaking of which...
🎵208 Zombie Hydra heads on the wall, 208 heads, take 'em all out, get to level 41, 289 MORE Zombie Hydra heads on the wall🎵

[Kish]

Not restricted to JRPGs. Any console or computer RPG has massively more random enemies than any real RPG.

(The Kingmaker module series for Pathfinder: The Stag Lord is followed by seven (7) bandits above and beyond his half-dozen or so named lieutenants, not more or less. The recent Kingmaker computer game: The Stag Lord has dozens of random bandit mooks.)

[woweedd]

Not restricted to JRPGs. Any console or computer RPG has massively more random enemies than any real RPG.

(The Kingmaker module series for Pathfinder: The Stag Lord is followed by seven (7) bandits above and beyond his half-dozen or so named lieutenants, not more or less. The recent Kingmaker computer game: The Stag Lord has dozens of random bandit mooks.)

"real RPG"? Come on. You never struck me as the condescing...Well, you never struck me as the elitist type, Kish .

[Kish]

I greatly enjoy a number of CRPGs, but in none of them can I truly make up a character rather than choosing from a limited list of options the game designers thought of, nor can I take any action that the DM did not anticipate and expect them to improvise rather than telling me, in effect, "There's an invisible wall there. Choose from this list of options instead."

So yes: a CRPG might be better or worse than what I consider a real RPG (I enjoy the aforementioned Kingmaker computer game much more than I've ever been interested in anyone running the Kingmaker adventure path, for example), but I'd never call it, or any other computer game, an RPG without some appendage (the letter C, the letter J, quotation marks...).

[Peelee]

"real RPG"? Come on. You never struck me as the condescing...Well, you never struck me as the elitist type, Kish .

New theory, Kish has the Elite Array.

[Doug Lampert]

Point taken. I assume this is from level one? So 4*67=268 roughly same level random encounters to reach level 21, meaning one level per 12.7619 encounters, though I imagine it will start with fewer encounters and slowly gets higher.

Nope. Based on DMG guidelines D&D 3.x uses 13.3333 standard encounters to level, that's true from level 1 to level arbitrarily high epic.

Reaching level 21 only requires leveling 20 times, 268/20 is 13.4, which is more than 13.3333 by exactly enough to make up for "losses" due to part of the XP from some lower level encounters being spent on higher levels.

[Aquillion]

Not restricted to JRPGs. Any console or computer RPG has massively more random enemies than any real RPG.

Not always true! Torment: Tides of Numenera, for instance, has fewer encounters than most tabletop games.

[Squire Doodad]

Nope. Based on DMG guidelines D&D 3.x uses 13.3333 standard encounters to level, that's true from level 1 to level arbitrarily high epic.

Reaching level 21 only requires leveling 20 times, 268/20 is 13.4, which is more than 13.3333 by exactly enough to make up for "losses" due to part of the XP from some lower level encounters being spent on higher levels.

Whoops flubbed my math there.
So if it scales into obscenely high Epic, why don't the deities get into monthly fights among their pantheon where each of them is put into a team, they go into a fight, and then they achieve a non-lethal victory? They'd level up every few years or so, and that would make them be thousands if not millions or even billions of levels high! Of course, the Snarl seems to have a specific kind of immunity to anything that isn't from a particular source of damage, meaning they can't actually do much more after the first thousand levels or so except for +1 chance of dying in two rounds against the Snarl instead of one...
Also it'd probably get boring somewhere around level 256.

New theory, Kish has the Elite Array.

Kish still can't be MitD though, even with the Elite Array.

[woweedd]

Whoops flubbed my math there.
So if it scales into obscenely high Epic, why don't the deities get into monthly fights among their pantheon where each of them is put into a team, they go into a fight, and then they achieve a non-lethal victory? They'd level up every few years or so, and that would make them be thousands if not millions or even billions of levels high! Of course, the Snarl seems to have a specific kind of immunity to anything that isn't from a particular source of damage, meaning they can't actually do much more after the first thousand levels or so except for +1 chance of dying in two rounds against the Snarl instead of one...
Also it'd probably get boring somewhere around level 256.


Kish still can't be MitD though, even with the Elite Array.

The first part: The answer is, you only gain much XP if it's a genuine fight. Staging it won't do much.

As for kish...Medium-sized, but only above-average Strength, not horrific ugly, and cannot teleport, so far as we know.

[woweedd]

I never really got how Lien pulled ahead of him since she was in the same situations Hinjo was for the most part.

Yeah, except she actually got to go on field missions more often, I assume, due to being less valuable.