What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Lacuna Caster]

There is no reason in the comic why Thor should not have answered Durkon anytime Durkon prayed for advice, nor any stated reason why the Twelve Southern Gods COULD not answer Miko's prayers.

We see Thor DECLINING to speak to Durkon once, because he is fighting Surtur, but EVEN THEN he eventually takes the phone.

Not that I find it particularily disturbing or anything (this being a fantasy PARODY and all), but if you took the time and took the story seriously (which I advice against, PARODY!!!), I would call this a plot inconsistency (not mentioning he evil word, I won't) unless someone gives a convincing explanation.

If that were true, it would be far easier to suggest other fixes (e.g. Hel not talking to the vampire) than to suggest that Miko, the rest of the Sapphire Guard, and most other clerics and paladins in the world similarly get regular and frequent video calls to the heavens.

To be clear, in the specific case of Thor vs. Surtur, this is obviously a throwaway gag that could be deleted from continuity and basically nothing would change, at a time when the events of the strip were pretty much totally inconsequential.

The problem is that things like Miko's belief system, the invasion of Azure City, Odin's prophecy or the IFCC's fiendish couriers have enormous narrative consequence and can't really be excised without the story falling apart, and "it's a stick-figure webcomic, don't take it so seriously" is often not the tenor of the arguments I hear.

Something logical within thy framework of the story: paladins lack any spells that let them contact the gods, while clerics do have access to such spells (eg Commune). Durkon, to the best of our knowledge, never cast Commune.

It's pretty consistent. Gods only "directly" intervene by giving their servants certain powers, and sending them visions when strictly necessary.

Yeah, but the pattern of non/intervention here is pretty baffling. I mean, the Twelve can contrive to send Sangwaan a vision where Belkar saves Hinjo's life, but they somehow manage not to advertise the hobgoblin army which was everywhere in the city at the time? Miko couldn't ask her to contact the Twelve and request proactive guidance on her behalf? At no point do her future-visions or divination skills pick up on Shojo's massive and ongoing duplicity?

Even things like the Guard summoning celestial beings, at a modest cost to XP, provides a fairly direct way to relay messages between Gods and mortals, so it's not like the Twelve couldn't give their senior personnel performance feedback now and then. One would expect Miko to be pen-pals with her own bureaucratic deva quite quickly.

As for Durkon- well, he does complain "ach, ye never answer those", so presumably he tried Commune at least a couple of times and never got any response. But in principle, at least in the early story, I could imagine some version of Thor that doesn't answer Durkon's texts simply because he doesn't yet grasp the importance of the Gates or got temporarily distracted or didn't see Durkon as all that important, etc. The Twelve don't really have that excuse, given that Xykon was prepping his army for months, and it is the literal job-description of the Guard to defend against threats to the Gates.

[Aveline]

I see your general point, but it seems to rely on the assumption that the Twelve Gods guide the Sapphire Guard. I just don't think they do.

I've gotten a consistent message that the gods, including the Twelve, were taking a strictly hands-off approach to the Gates until just now, when a handful of Northern gods are scrambling in response to Hel's unexpected presence. It was only "scant decades" ago that the gods voted collectively to "let the mortals patch this on their own", according to Heimdall. Not only were the Twelve not doing anything between that Godsmoot and the present one, the Twelve were specifically bound not to do anything, except grant and fulfill cleric spells.

Importantly, Miko does not have access to cleric spells. As a paladin, she receives powers not from the Twelve but from, like, her virtue or something. I'm not particular on the metaphysics of paladins. (Sangwaan also was a wizard and not a cleric.) Anyway, as long as there are no Sapphire Guard members with significant ranks in cleric, they simply cannot receive guidance from the Twelve, because the only thing the Twelve can do is grant and fulfill cleric spells.

Furthermore, Miko did not have her powers revoked by the gods - they never gave her any to begin with. When she fell, it was because she was no longer Lawful Good; it was not a divine judgment call. Why they showed up for her fall is an open question, but maybe they were just very interested in what was transpiring and... watched? Their presence at her fall is the only thing to suggest any special relationship between the Twelve Gods and the Sapphire Guard. Since contradictions follow from that reading, I recommend reading it differently. One possible interpretation could be that Miko's superiority complex shifted to full megalomania, and she deluded herself that the Twelve Gods had chosen her as their champion (when in fact they simply could not interact with her in any way).

[Peelee]

The problem is that things like Miko's belief system, the invasion of Azure City, Odin's prophecy or the IFCC's fiendish couriers have enormous narrative consequence and can't really be excised without the story falling apart, and "it's a stick-figure webcomic, don't take it so seriously" is often not the tenor of the arguments I hear.

Milo's belief system, at least, had a very simple explanation: she was wrong.

[Lacuna Caster]

I've gotten a consistent message that the gods, including the Twelve, were taking a strictly hands-off approach to the Gates until just now, when a handful of Northern gods are scrambling in response to Hel's unexpected presence. It was only "scant decades" ago that the gods voted collectively to "let the mortals patch this on their own", according to Heimdall. Not only were the Twelve not doing anything between that Godsmoot and the present one, the Twelve were specifically bound not to do anything, except grant and fulfill cleric spells.

Importantly, Miko does not have access to cleric spells. As a paladin, she receives powers not from the Twelve but from, like, her virtue or something. I'm not particular on the metaphysics of paladins. (Sangwaan also was a wizard and not a cleric.) Anyway, as long as there are no Sapphire Guard members with significant ranks in cleric, they simply cannot receive guidance from the Twelve, because the only thing the Twelve can do is grant and fulfill cleric spells.

No, Sangwaan uses a combination of both divine and arcane magic for scrying/forecast purposes, IIRC, and azurite paladins definitely get their powers from the Twelve.

Besides, all the Twelve need to do is 'grant and fulfill cleric spells' in order to set up regular channels of communication with their senior followers. Commune, Planar Ally and (most drastically) Raise Dead can all serve that purpose. A D&D universe assumes, by default, that senior clergy are going to be in semi-regular contact with their patron deity, in the same way it assumes that magical healing will expedite recovery and assassins will turn themselves invisible. This isn't cheating or breaking or bending the rules, it's simply how the game is played.

I mean, I can understand in narrative terms that this rather has the effect of turning mortals into mobile chess-pieces shoved around the board by their celestial patrons, and then the latter would then effectively become the real stars of the show. But if the Gods really really really have these hard-and-fast rules against talking to their followers under any and all circumstances, even when it seems both urgent and justified, then... that kind of has to be enforced throughout the story.

Milo's belief system, at least, had a very simple explanation: she was wrong.

Okay, fine, but my broader point is that this implies a universe where the belief-systems of the devout can significantly diverge from the True Religion, due to, say, memetic drift over time and barriers to communication between the Gods and their faithful. And... OOTSverse, particularly as depicted in the later segments of the story, is just not that universe.

[Aveline]

No, Sangwaan uses a combination of both divine and arcane magic for scrying/forecast purposes, IIRC, and azurite paladins definitely get their powers from the Twelve.

I would like sources for these points, other than an offhand figure of speech such as "thank the Twelve" or "the will of the Twelve".

Besides, all the Twelve need to do is 'grant and fulfill cleric spells' in order to set up regular channels of communication with their senior followers. Commune, Planar Ally and (most drastically) Raise Dead can all serve that purpose. A D&D universe assumes, by default, that senior clergy are going to be in semi-regular contact with their patron deity, in the same way it assumes that magical healing will expedite recovery and assassins will turn themselves invisible. This isn't cheating or breaking or bending the rules, it's simply how the game is played.

I mean, I can understand in narrative terms that this rather has the effect of turning mortals into mobile chess-pieces shoved around the board by their celestial patrons, and then the latter would then effectively become the real stars of the show. But if the Gods really really really have these hard-and-fast rules against talking to their followers under any and all circumstances, even when it seems both urgent and justified, then... that kind of has to be enforced throughout the story.

It is consistently enforced. The gods can only discuss the matter of the Snarl with people already familiar with the matter. Sangwaan? Nope. Any High Priest within their pantheon? Nope. Low-level civilian clerics in Azure City? Certainly not. Sapphire Guard members? They know about the Snarl but do not have personal access to clerical spells.


Any action a god could take with respect to the Snarl needs to pass two checks: Do I have a cleric involved? Does this cleric of mine know about the Snarl? The only topic not directly related to the Snarl they could warn Azure City about is Xykon's imminent invasion - but it's highly possible they themselves didn't see it coming, since Xykon makes constant use of epic-level divination blockers.

[Lacuna Caster]

I would like sources for these points, other than an offhand figure of speech such as "thank the Twelve" or "the will of the Twelve".

I think Sangwaan's abilities are spelled out in the 'Spoiler Alert' short story.

It is consistently enforced. The gods can only discuss the matter of the Snarl with people already familiar with the matter. Sangwaan? Nope. Any High Priest within their pantheon? Nope. Low-level civilian clerics in Azure City? Certainly not. Sapphire Guard members? They know about the Snarl but do not have personal access to clerical spells.

No, the author mentions that the Guard consists of both paladins and clerics devoted to the Twelve, and Sangwaan is pretty certainly a member herself, given she testifies at the Order's trial. We also know that senior clerics must be members of the Guard because Planar Ally would be required to summon extraplanar beings to act as judges and counsel for the defence, during the same trial.

So there really is nothing, within the standard rules, that should prevent the Twelve from being in semi-regular contact with senior members of the Guard.

[CriticalFailure]

At first I assumed Saangwaan was a divination school wizard, but with more info I began to wonder if she was some sort of divine caster - is there a d&d3.5e version of the oracle class that exists in Pathfinder, because I thought that seemed like a good fit.

[hamishspence]

I think Sangwaan's abilities are spelled out in the 'Spoiler Alert' short story.

Sangwaan's statement:

Spoiler

Show

"I'm a diviner. I use a combination of wizard magic and numerology to make predictions. Though, some mornings, Lord Rooster blesses me with true visions of what is to come. They are fleeting though. I cannot control them."

[Kish]

The D&D 3.5 counterpart to the Pathfinder oracle would be the favored soul, what Veldrina is.

Sangwaan's "gift" from Lord Rooster (more a sadistic curse, apparently, and tied to one of the Twelve Gods) no more makes her a divine caster than the Oracle's vastly more useful and reliable visions mean he has class levels other than Expert.

[Mightymosy]

Sangwaan's statement:

Spoiler

Show

"I'm a diviner. I use a combination of wizard magic and numerology to make predictions. Though, some mornings, Lord Rooster blesses me with true visions of what is to come. They are fleeting though. I cannot control them."

In other words:

A god CAN send information to a follower, even if that one is NOT a cleric and DOES NOT use a "Commune Spell".
Right?

Milo's belief system, at least, had a very simple explanation: she was wrong.

I think you are way simplifying stuff here.

Yes, Miko ultimately was wrong, no question.

But she DID ask for guidance. She asked the gods for guidance. Gods who she thought deemed her special. Gods who DID deem her special enough to grant - and to withdraw - paladin magic powers.

If you do take this whole affair seriously, you need to allow the question why the heck the Twelve Gods behaved so incompetently. Yes, there may be a reason that is not shown in the comic (yet). But the "reasons" stated so far here don't convince me.

So, for me it's either
A) Don't take this too seriously - as a FANTASY PARODY, the OotS story does not TRY to go into such deep details. Anyone who finds plotholes can keep them - because this story is not designed to have none whatsoever, it's just designed so that superficially, it works on a basic level well enough.
B) Plot inconsistency (minor)

So far, I go with A), and see no convicing reason to change.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

you need to allow the question why the heck the Twelve Gods behaved so incompetently.

What? The gods didn't recruit her, anymore than the CEO of the company does the interviews for new hires. If the CEO needs extra workers, he sends the word down the chain of command and some HR person takes care of it (that'd be another paladin or priest in this metaphor). Every so often, a hire turns out to be a bloody moron, and it can get that bad that the CEO decides to fire them in person, as per the Giant's example, but that doesn't mean the CEO acted incompetently - indeed, their job is to stop the problem from escalating, so they acted competently by firing the moron.

Same here: the gods don't recruit and vet the paladins personally, because by and large mortals are not worth their time or their attention. Yes, they pay the salaries (i.e. grant them spells), but especially the committee-run 12 Southern gods are going to have rather hands-off approach to all this since they can probably only agree on the big picture like "have a bunch of paladins preventing idiots form messing with the rifts", but not just how LG the paladins need to be.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Sangwaan's "gift" from Lord Rooster (more a sadistic curse, apparently, and tied to one of the Twelve Gods) no more makes her a divine caster than the Oracle's vastly more useful and reliable visions mean he has class levels other than Expert.

Okay, sure, fair point, but the phrasing that hamish is talking about suggests that Lord Rooster is actively sending information her way unbidden. In which case... why not send information that might actually save a ton of lives?

In other words:

A god CAN send information to a follower, even if that one is NOT a cleric and DOES NOT use a "Commune Spell".
Right?

Well, it's conceivable that Sangwaan has some kind of unique genetic aptitude that just happens to be... badly botched relative to either Veldrina or the Oracle proper. But yeah, this isn't exactly narrowing the Gods' range of options here.

What? The gods didn't recruit her, anymore than the CEO of the company does the interviews for new hires. If the CEO needs extra workers, he sends the word down the chain of command and some HR person takes care of it (tat' be another paladin or priest in this metaphor). Every so often, a hire turns out to be a bloody moron, and it can get that bad that the CEO decides to fire them in person, as per the Giant's example, but that doesn't mean the CEO acted incompetently - indeed, their job is to stop the problem from escalating, so they acted competently by firing the moron.

Same here: the gods don't recruit and vet the paladins personally, because by and large mortals are not worth their time or their attention...

Maybe at the ground floor, sure, but once you get far enough up the chain of command- particularly the chain of command within an organisation specifically tasked with safeguarding the planet containing all their current worshippers- those mortals really should be worth their time and attention, for reasons that the story itself makes abundantly clear. The Sapphire Guard obviously had persistent problems with dysfunctional leadership, and given that the Twelve have absolute veto over who gets installed in senior admin positions, and have various channels for providing feedback and intelligence, they do bear a large measure of responsibility for those problems.

This would be like the CEO of your company not bothering to vet who becomes vice-president of operations, not issuing them any specific directives about how to do their job, not sharing information vital to their decision-making, and not providing any mentoring, performance evaluation, or prior warnings until you fire them for the mess you essentially created, despite the VP constantly and explicitly asking for input from the CEO. There's a "moron" in this situation, alright, but it's not the VP.

[Kish]

Okay, sure, fair point, but the phrasing that hamish is talking about suggests that Lord Rooster is actively sending information her way unbidden. In which case... why not send information that might actually save a ton of lives?

I kind of thought this concept was implied in "more a sadistic curse," but sure, I'll spell it out:

Maybe Rooster's evil.

[Resileaf]

I kind of thought this concept was implied in "more a sadistic curse," but sure, I'll spell it out:

Maybe Rooster's evil.

If you are modeled after an animal which's sole purpose is to wake people up in the morning, then yes, you are definitely evil.

[CriticalFailure]

What class does The Oracle of Sunken Valley have anyway?

[Vinyadan]

No, Sangwaan uses a combination of both divine and arcane magic for scrying/forecast purposes, IIRC.

I don't think this is accurate, although it isn't completely clear; there is some about it in O-Chul's Book.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

S. is a diviner. She uses a combination of wizard magic and numerology for her predictions. However, she sometimes is granted visions in the morning from the Rooster god; they are fleeting and she cannot control them. The impression I got was that this was not the result of a divine spell. Also, if she is a literal D&D diviner, she should be a specialist wizard, and she explicitly states that she isn't an oracle, which, again, taken as RAW, would mean that she isn't a Divine Oracle, although it more likely simply means that she isn't like the Oracle of the Sunken Valley.

What class does The Oracle of Sunken Valley have anyway?

What class does The Oracle of Sunken Valley have anyway?

Page 566: "I'm what you would call "naturally gifted". The Dragon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future without requiring me to earn a bunch of cleric class levels first. It's sort of like getting an honorary Ph.D.

Page 571: He says he lost a level of Expert when he died.

[hamishspence]

What class does The Oracle of Sunken Valley have anyway?

Not cleric:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html

"Expert" is the class for fairly typical NPCs.

[Keltest]

What class does The Oracle of Sunken Valley have anyway?

Expert, which is an NPC class designed to allow for a variety of non-combat trades and professions.

[Peelee]

I think you are way simplifying stuff here.

Yes, Miko ultimately was wrong, no question.

But she DID ask for guidance. She asked the gods for guidance. Gods who she thought deemed her special.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... Bullhonkey.

Miko had no reason to think she was special any more than any other cleric or paladin. She heard the same words Hinjo did, but Hinjo didn't believe he was above the law. She saw a flaw in a cage like O-Chul did, but O-Chul didn't think the gods were personally giving him a sign to break out immediately. Miko believed she was special because she wanted to be special.

It's a world where gods demonstrably exist. You know who else asks them for guidance? Sure, Miko asks them for guidance. Her and everyone else in the world. It's pretty clear when the gods actually give guidance, and stains on shirts or cracks in bars aren't their style, from everything we've been shown. If Miko misread things, that's 100% on her.

[hamishspence]

Miko had no reason to think she was special any more than any other cleric or paladin.

Shojo, at least, may have contributed somewhat to her belief:

Shojo dies because of a lifetime of lies and deceptions, the most important of which was telling a random orphan girl that she was Special and Chosen.

[CriticalFailure]

oh yeah I forgot that but now I remember at time I was surprised it wasn't "adept" or somethign

[Peelee]

Shojo, at least, may have contributed somewhat to her belief:

Fair point. Miko isn't wholly at fault, then. Seems like it was an induced case of the mother of all superiority complexes. That kind of sucks for her.

[Keltest]

Fair point. Miko isn't wholly at fault, then. Seems like it was an induced case of the mother of all superiority complexes. That kind of sucks for her.

Objectively speaking, Miko was special. She was raised by the lord of the city and was at the time the most powerful paladin in the Guard. Miko's problem wasnt thinking that she was special, because she was. Her problem was thinking that specialness translated into automatically being right. She believed her specialness was the cause of, rather than the result of, her circumstances and actions.

[Peelee]

Objectively speaking, Miko was special. She was raised by the lord of the city and was at the time the most powerful paladin in the Guard. Miko's problem wasnt thinking that she was special, because she was. Her problem was thinking that specialness translated into automatically being right. She believed her specialness was the cause of, rather than the result of, her circumstances and actions.

Miko was not special so far as the gods felt, which was what she believed. Her social status and power level are irrelevant; the Oracle has NPC classes and Samgwaan wasn't terribly powerful, but they were divinely special. Miko wasnt.

[Keltest]

Miko was not special so far as the gods felt, which was what she believed. Her social status and power level are irrelevant; the Oracle has NPC classes and Samgwaan wasn't terribly powerful, but they were divinely special. Miko wasnt.

I would argue that being a paladin does make her special... just not more so than, say, Hinjo. Again, the problem was not the conclusion "I am special", the problem was that she then went on to decide that meant whatever she did would automatically be the correct thing to do.

[hroþila]

I would argue that being a paladin does make her special... just not more so than, say, Hinjo. Again, the problem was not the conclusion "I am special", the problem was that she then went on to decide that meant whatever she did would automatically be the correct thing to do.

But she didn't mean that she was special as in "statistically special, more powerful than most and part of a social and martial elite", she meant it as in "the gods have taken a special interest in me and they've chosen me specifically to carry out their will."

[Keltest]

But she didn't mean that she was special as in "statistically special, more powerful than most and part of a social and martial elite", she meant it as in "the gods have taken a special interest in me and they've chosen me specifically to carry out their will."

I mean, it sounds like youre agreeing with me, and are just quibbling about the wording? Miko was special, in a lot of different ways. Her problem was that she concluded from that specialness that she was therefore infallible.

[Peelee]

I would argue that being a paladin does make her special... just not more so than, say, Hinjo.

And specifically less so than, say, Clerics, who actually get spells that let them talk directly to their gods.

[Mightymosy]

To get this straight: did Miko get her powers from the gods or not?

Also what is a bullhonkey?

[Vinyadan]

Miko actually asked Shojo whether he was lying to her when he told her she was special. So, in a way, she was working under the assumption to be very special independently from Shojo's words, although the first idea was the result of his little talk. It then took its own wings.