What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[King of Nowhere]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

On the other hand, redcloak may or may not have been repelled at the walls, but he surely would have been delayed more. So xykon would have been destroied in the throne room, but with redcloak away the philactery would have been lost. And since we know xykon can talk out of the philactery (he did it when he was destroyed by roy), first thing he'd have done after destruction was telling redcloak to gtfo from the battle.

So, azure city may or may not have resisted, the main villains would have taken a beating but would have likely survived to rebuild. Certainly a more favorable outcome, though.

[factotum]

So, azure city may or may not have resisted, the main villains would have taken a beating but would have likely survived to rebuild. Certainly a more favorable outcome, though.

Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies. Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy? We could well end up in a situation where Xykon and Redcloak have all the time in the world to perform their rituals at Girard's Gate while the Order struggle to get across the ocean from the ruins of Azure City.

[woweedd]

Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies. Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy? We could well end up in a situation where Xykon and Redcloak have all the time in the world to perform their rituals at Girard's Gate while the Order struggle to get across the ocean from the ruins of Azure City.

It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing. That said, The Order now has access to Shojo’s resources, which, even given a battle, is no small thing, especially since Azure City has allies, who, yes, weren’t much help in canon, but may be more willling to help in a world where Azure City didn’t get decimated. All the Order needs is a Teleport and they’re on their way. And all this is assuming both Xykon and Redcloak survive the battle: no safe assumption.

[RatElemental]

I'd bet a few quatloos that the draketooth clan had non illusion spells they could cast or at least knew of the existence of shadow conjurations. Adding to that, the final double bluff is entirely mundane, Xykon and RC might have fallen for it.

In fact, I'd bet Xykon would blow up the pillar in his anger, which may also destroy the gate given his penchant for overkill.

[dps]

Ok, let's think this through:

Miko wouldn't have killed Shojo, so she wouldn't have fallen.

Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.

Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not. Either way, Xykon would have likely been destroyed, and she would have had no reason to destroy the Gate.

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

[Synesthesy]

Ok, let's think this through:

Miko wouldn't have killed Shojo, so she wouldn't have fallen.

Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.

Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not. Either way, Xykon would have likely been destroyed, and she would have had no reason to destroy the Gate.

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

So my curiosity now is: the Ghost Martyr of the Sapphire Guard would have been locked into the throne room, while around them the city is conquered by Redcloak.... Or could them go Dead Army rampage led by Hinjaragorn? Because in this case, I can see them win the battle...

[factotum]

It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing. That said, The Order now has access to Shojo’s resources, which, even given a battle, is no small thing, especially since Azure City has allies, who, yes, weren’t much help in canon, but may be more willling to help in a world where Azure City didn’t get decimated. All the Order needs is a Teleport and they’re on their way. And all this is assuming both Xykon and Redcloak survive the battle: no safe assumption.

No it doesn't? In 3.5 edition, a lich regenerates 1d10 days after being destroyed--that could be a week and a half (which is still not a "few weeks") or it could be the next day. Certainly considerably less time than was occupied with searching for the phylactery in the sewers. As for Xykon surviving the battle, he doesn't have to, as already pointed out, because of the phylactery, and so long as Redcloak escapes before the final assault he's good too.

[Resileaf]

There are two places that Miko could be at this point: In the throne room to die to Xykon with the rest of the paladins (Although she'd probably do more damage to him than O-Chul did), or on the walls since she'd insist that the Order is untrustworthy and she wants to watch them (Hinjo didn't have to stay in the throne room with the rest of the paladins, so it's likely the Miko could also be allowed to stay out of the throne room).

Either place she is, she can turn the tide of battle, either as a ghost-martyr to whack Xykon, or to fight Redcloak when he does his final push. She's already proven to be stronger than Redcloak during their duel at the tower (although part of it could be because he was holding back so they'd have a paladin go back to Azure City), so it's likely that she could stop him with the aid of the rest of the Order. Depending on where she is on the walls, she might even stop the death knight from killing the majority of the soldiers and the general, which would go a long way to keep the breach holding.

Wherever she would be, she'd be a potent weapon for Azure City's defenses.

[dps]

There are two places that Miko could be at this point: In the throne room to die to Xykon with the rest of the paladins (Although she'd probably do more damage to him than O-Chul did), or on the walls since she'd insist that the Order is untrustworthy and she wants to watch them (Hinjo didn't have to stay in the throne room with the rest of the paladins, so it's likely the Miko could also be allowed to stay out of the throne room).

Either place she is, she can turn the tide of battle, either as a ghost-martyr to whack Xykon, or to fight Redcloak when he does his final push. She's already proven to be stronger than Redcloak during their duel at the tower (although part of it could be because he was holding back so they'd have a paladin go back to Azure City), so it's likely that she could stop him with the aid of the rest of the Order. Depending on where she is on the walls, she might even stop the death knight from killing the majority of the soldiers and the general, which would go a long way to keep the breach holding.

Wherever she would be, she'd be a potent weapon for Azure City's defenses.

Actually, if Shojo had still been alive, it's likely that Hinjo would have been in the throne room, too. The reason he wasn't there was because he was in overall charge of the defense of the city

[Resileaf]

Actually, if Shojo had still been alive, it's likely that Hinjo would have been in the throne room, too. The reason he wasn't there was because he was in overall charge of the defense of the city

Hinjo would most likely still be in overall charge of the defenses due to being the best military commander. Shojo is an aristocrat, he doesn't necessarily have a lot of military experience of his own, and he definitely cannot fight. Since half of a battle is morale, the troops need a leader to look up to and there is no better leader than the son of the current leader of the city, valiantly fighting on the front lines.
It's not a coincidence that the troops at the breach deserted when their general went down.

Edit: Also Shojo will probably want to send his heir where he is less likely to die.

[woweedd]

No it doesn't? In 3.5 edition, a lich regenerates 1d10 days after being destroyed--that could be a week and a half (which is still not a "few weeks") or it could be the next day. Certainly considerably less time than was occupied with searching for the phylactery in the sewers. As for Xykon surviving the battle, he doesn't have to, as already pointed out, because of the phylactery, and so long as Redcloak escapes before the final assault he's good too.

Once Xykon's gone, capturing his soul jar shoots up to the top of priority, and i'd be shocked if Shojo doesn't have a plan.

[Aquillion]

Let's review how well pointing to the laws of the land worked in the actual comic...

That was very different, since she'd just heard Shojo declare that he'd been manipulating the courts and lying to her.

Earlier, when she was about to kill Belkar, Shojo was able to talk her down by invoking the laws - the reason it didn't work that time was because now she knew that the person in charge of the laws had no respect for them.

If she says eg. "we'll keep a close eye on Roy so he can't betray us or escape during the battle, and arrest him if and when we have solid evidence, as the laws require", I think she would have (grudgingly) accepted it, just like she accepted that Belkar had the right to a trial. She only completely broke when it was clear that the man who raised her was lying to her the entire time.

[RatElemental]

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city. Yes, Xykon would have gone back to his phalactery, and might have told Redcloak to bug out, but even if Redcloak himself had left, the army was already within the city--he couldn't just pull them out at that point. And with the city fallen, the question becomes whether or not the castle itself could hold out. It couldn't indefinitely, so I think Hinjo would have made the decision to blow the Gate anyway. So probably the end result wouldn't have changed much. The biggest differences in the long run would have been that O-Chul wouldn't have been captured and wouldn't have had the chance to influence the MitD, and probably Haley and Belkar would have recovered Roy's corpse soon enough to get him raised right away.

The thing about ghosts, is that they don't need to sleep, eat, drink or rest. The ghost martyrs definitely could have kept the keep indefinitely from just the hobgoblins, and that is exactly what Soon planned to do once Xykon was taken down.

And for that matter, we know that even if Xykon and Redcloak come back, Soon and the remaining martyrs can hold the keep from them too, barring Miko destroying the gate.

[factotum]

Once Xykon's gone, capturing his soul jar shoots up to the top of priority, and i'd be shocked if Shojo doesn't have a plan.

I would be shocked if he *did* have a plan, considering he didn't know Xykon was going to attack any sooner than anyone else did. Furthermore, in the scenario we're talking about, Redcloak quite probably never makes it to the throne room, and when the Ghost-Martyrs kill Xykon he can warn Redcloak (through the phylactery) to leave the field before anyone has a chance to try and capture him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The thing about ghosts, is that they don't need to sleep, eat, drink or rest. The ghost martyrs definitely could have kept the keep indefinitely from just the hobgoblins, and that is exactly what Soon planned to do once Xykon was taken down.

And for that matter, we know that even if Xykon and Redcloak come back, Soon and the remaining martyrs can hold the keep from them too, barring Miko destroying the gate.

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

[Fyraltari]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

The other ghost-martyrs were all banished by this point, so it's possible Soon just wouldn't risk leaving the thing alone. He could not pick it up in this state, could he?

[Resileaf]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

Miko had suggested that Soon pursue Xykon and Redcloak, but he only protested that he was about to disappear, not that he couldn't leave the throne room, so I assume he could have moved around if he wanted.

[Fyraltari]

Miko had suggested that Soon pursue Xykon and Redcloak, but he only protested that he was about to disappear, not that he couldn't leave the throne room, so I assume he could have moved around if he wanted.

At this time there was no more throne room. The magic that binded him to the Sapphire was gone and he was making an effort to stay and talk with her. It's possible that he couldn't pursue before because he was bound to the Sapphire and he couldn't pusruse after because the magic that binded him was also the one that allowed him to manifest.

If he could leave the throne room, I feel like he would have intervened before Xykon reached it.

[RatElemental]

This one's on me, guys. By 'keep' I meant pretty much just the throne room/gate. Whether or not the castle itself is over run, my point was the hobgoblins wouldn't be securing the gate itself, and neither would RC and Xykon if/when they returned.

[Resileaf]

At this time there was no more throne room. The magic that binded him to the Sapphire was gone and he was making an effort to stay and talk with her. It's possible that he couldn't pursue before because he was bound to the Sapphire and he couldn't pusruse after because the magic that binded him was also the one that allowed him to manifest.

If he could leave the throne room, I feel like he would have intervened before Xykon reached it.

That depends on what the rules are for him to manifest. I imagine he can only appear in times of great need and when the situation is desperate, or perhaps he needs... Well, reinforcements.

I wouldn't assume that once he appears, he can just go anywhere, I assume that he would work like most ghosts who have a favorite haunt and don't move away from it, but I assume that he can get up to a certain distance from the throne room without instantly poofing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Before the End

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That was very different, since she'd just heard Shojo declare that he'd been manipulating the courts and lying to her.

Earlier, when she was about to kill Belkar, Shojo was able to talk her down by invoking the laws - the reason it didn't work that time was because now she knew that the person in charge of the laws had no respect for them.

If she says eg. "we'll keep a close eye on Roy so he can't betray us or escape during the battle, and arrest him if and when we have solid evidence, as the laws require", I think she would have (grudgingly) accepted it, just like she accepted that Belkar had the right to a trial. She only completely broke when it was clear that the man who raised her was lying to her the entire time.

I'm not convinced that "Work with these guys who you 'know' are traitors working for the enemy" is closer to "Don't kill that guy who you 'know' we're probably going to condemn regardless" than "Listen to the authority figure who you 'know' is a traitor working for the enemy".

Shojo probably would have been able to keep at least some of the nobles from bailing before the battle, but without knowing how many troops they could have actually contributed, I'm not sure it would have made all that much of a difference.

Not as much as the noble houses not near-openly rebelling during the battle would.

Miko would have been sent to the Throne Room with the other non-low levell Paladins. I assume that she would have been affected by the ball with the Symbol of Insanity, but maybe not.

I dunno, does it have any effect on people who are already crazy?

OTOH, at that point, the city's walls had already been breached--the hobgoblin army would still have taken the city.

Assuming that the actions made by the nobles' soldiers and retainers had no effect, yes.

Spoiler: The Aftermath

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Is it? The most dangerous enemies have escaped, and even if Azure City succeeds in holding off the hobgoblin attack, they're critically weakened for years if not decades to come--easy meat for their other enemies.

1. What other enemies? The only enemies I can remember coming up in the comic are goblin tribes and themselves, both of which would be weakened after that battle.
2. Azure City would have a lot more high-level characters alive if the Gate didn't blow up. The Sapphire Guard would mostly be gone, but that's just the paladins and whatnot; there are plenty of spellcasters, guards, etc who could hold out until the Sapphire Guard can train some new rookies up to a decent level. (Or recall paladins who were out of town in the hour of need.)

Spoiler: Girard

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Meanwhile, once Xykon has regrown himself he teleports over to Girard's pyramid. Now, since Familicide hasn't been cast in this timeline, it's entirely unclear what happens when he gets there. The fact he knows exactly where the pyramid is means most of the illusions hiding it will be useless, and how well will a bunch of illusionists do in a straight-up fight with an epic sorcerer lich and his cleric buddy?

Most of the illusions hiding the pyramid will be useless, but there are other illusions guarding the Gate. We know at least one incapacitating illusion (the Corridor of Erised), and we know there were other spells being cast at regular intervals by the Draketooths while they were alive. (Also, even if Xykon has the coordinates, the last few illusions are going to
Also, there are a good number of illusions which can turn the tide of battle, ranging from greater invisibility to phantasmal killer.

It takes Xykon a few weeks to regenerate. Granted, The Draketooths would have fallen easily before him, given A. Undead are immune to illusions and B. Cleric capable of casting True Seeing.

A. Undead aren't immune to illusions. They are immune to mind-affecting effects, and I think intelligent undead are affected even by those. Not all illusions are mind-affecting; I think that's just glamours and maybe shadows. Even if my memory's faulty, we have canonical proof that at least some of the Draketooths' illusions affect mindless creatures.
B. That would be a problem, but the illusions would still slow Xykon down. Not to mention that a return to impotence would be one dispel magic away, and I'd be shocked if an epic-level sorcerer trying to make a perfect defense for an artifact holding the world together wouldn't have considered true seeing.

[dps]

I do believe the Ghost Martyr's are trapped within the throne room, specifically, as Soon planned on instructing the first friendly to enter the room to destroy the Phylactery. If they could leave the room (but remain within the keep/castle), it been prudent to send any Martyr to search for someone capable of destroying the thing within whatever restriction they have on their movement.

What Soon actually said is "Our oaths to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world", which doesn't address at all where they could move or manifest. It's left completely unanswered.

BTW, just noticed that grammatically, it actually should be "Our oaths to defend the Gate were all..."

[factotum]

BTW, just noticed that grammatically, it actually should be "Our oaths to defend the Gate were all..."

I think it's more likely that "Oaths" being plural is the error, since why would they need to take more than one oath to defend the gate? So, "Our oath to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world" makes perfect sense.

Spoiler

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1. What other enemies? The only enemies I can remember coming up in the comic are goblin tribes and themselves, both of which would be weakened after that battle.

Spoiler

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See the O-Chul prequel story, where Azure City is on the brink of war with another civilisation and the hobgoblins are, at best, a minor distraction.

[Anymage]

If it's just about defending the gate, something that caused two gates to be destroyed would likely lead to a threat against Soon's at some point down the road and would be nice if some epic level ghost paladin could head out and try to stop the threat. I assume that he's not limited to the specific confines of the throne room. Both his parting scene outside its confines and the simple fact that someone plinking arrows from outside the door would be totally safe from so strictly limited ghost mean that such restrictions make no sense. But the ghost martyrs do seem to require an immediate threat to the gate-gem itself in order to activate.

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

[RatElemental]

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

What does charisma have to do with this? Wisdom is what builds will saves, not charisma. As for what Xykon would do...

Mass Hold Person

[factotum]

If it's just about defending the gate, something that caused two gates to be destroyed would likely lead to a threat against Soon's at some point down the road and would be nice if some epic level ghost paladin could head out and try to stop the threat.

An epic level paladin who swore an oath not to interfere with the other gates, remember, and even in life he would never have broken such an oath.

[Resileaf]

What does charisma have to do with this? Wisdom is what builds will saves, not charisma. As for what Xykon would do...

Mass Hold Person

Paladins get a bonus on all their saves equal to their charisma bonus.

[dps]

As far as the throne room showdown, I do wonder one point of trivia. Between her level, the boost to saves from being a monk, and having a better Cha than O'Chul (Miko may be obnoxious, but she is shown to use Lay on Hands and you do need a positive charisma modifier to do that), I see her handling the bouncy ball onslaught at least as well as O'Chul did. One moderately leveled paladin almost broke the gate before being paralyzed. Would a sane Miko as a second high level paladin in the room have potentially pulled that off as a reasonable seeming strategic decision, or how would Xykon have confidently stopped two paladins who were good at resilience?

I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.

[woweedd]

I suppose that you may be right that Miko, like O-Chul, would have been unaffected by the Symbol of Insanity, but I don't think it matters. Some of the other Paladins were unaffected, but were killed by those who were affected. And if she wasn't killed by the other Paladins, she would have probably been killed by Xykon, or paralyzed like O-Chul.

O-Chul wasn't immune, although his Will save may or may not have been good enough. He wasn't in range at all.

[hroþila]

But Miko should be better equipped than O-Chul to resist the Symbol of Insanity, right?

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken O-Chul was well equipped to resist the Paralyzing Touch, but bad rolls happen.