What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[CriticalFailure]

Eh, Redcloak was able to deal with the lower level ghost martyrs pretty quickly after he knew what they were. Xykon had a pretty rough time with them because he didn't know what he was doing, had they been able to poof the lower level ones from the start I think they'd be a lot better off in the fight and have a better chance against Soon.

[Kelenius]

Even better, TDO's new high priest would be in an even weaker position then.

Would he have level 9 spells? The current plan for stopping the Snarl hinges on that.

[hroþila]

Would he have level 9 spells? The current plan for stopping the Snarl hinges on that.

Of course not (which would weaken TDO's bargaining position even more because his new priest can't expect to get the Plan going again on their own). But without Xykon, there's time to nurse a new priest to higher levels.

[Fyraltari]

Of course not (which would weaken TDO's bargaining position even more because his new priest can't expect to get the Plan going again on their own). But without Xykon, there's time to nurse a new priest to higher levels.

Is there, though?

[RatElemental]

Is there, though?

I'm not sure what we're meant to glean from a broken gate not holding the snarl back, when with Xykon out of the picture one could free the souls of the two who originally built the gates and resurrect them, as well as (at the time) there being only two broken gates to begin with and no one poking around inside either of them.

[Ruck]

Well I mean, at that point she couldn't smite evil anymore, and that would have basically been kill stealing. She totally could smash the phylactery though, but I've never been clear on why Soon couldn't do that if he was just fine smashing Xykon to begin with.

I'm not either, but I just assumed Soon knows the rules governing what ghost-martyrs can and can't do better than I do.

[Resileaf]

Xykon did say that the phylactery was protected by the strongest abjurations he could have. Most likely Soon wouldn't be able to beat those abjurations, whereas he could instruct a physical person to take the phylactery and take the necessary steps to destroy it.

[Squire Doodad]

Xykon did say that the phylactery was protected by the strongest abjurations he could have. Most likely Soon wouldn't be able to beat those abjurations, whereas he could instruct a physical person to take the phylactery and take the necessary steps to destroy it.

It probably needs a multi-step process, or perhaps Soon can only affect entities with a mind as opposed to physical objects. Like, he can slice a rabbit in half if he needed to, and can fight automatons and stuff, but he can't do anything on sand or bricks unless its part of a sentient building that seeks to criticize every major architect's work.

[factotum]

Without Xykon, they repair the rifts and work on getting TDO on board at their leisure.

Repair the rifts? If that were possible, why wouldn't the gods already be doing it rather than debating if they're going to destroy the world or not? Even the Order of the Scribble didn't actually repair the rifts, they just put the equivalent of a patch over them and the rifts are tearing open worse now the patches are gone.

[HorizonWalker]

Personally, I am of the firm opinion that, given Order Of The Stick is pretty low-optimization, an Epic-Level Undying Paladin is absolutely going to win any fight a Lich Sorcerer and an Evil Cleric pick with him. That's what Epic-Level Paladins do. From... pretty much the beginning, when the Ghost-Martyrs arose, it was pretty clear Xykon and Redcloak were screwed. Oh, sure, they tried some things that kinda worked, but even after Xykon switched to Magic Missile, and even after Redcloak Turned Undying, Soon Kim still beat them up and took their lunch money.

I don't think that fight was ever gonna go any other way.

[Kelenius]

I'm not sure what we're meant to glean from a broken gate not holding the snarl back, when with Xykon out of the picture one could free the souls of the two who originally built the gates and resurrect them, as well as (at the time) there being only two broken gates to begin with and no one poking around inside either of them.

The thing is, the gates don't really hold the Snarl, being made of only three colors. Plus, resurrecting Lirian and Dorukan requires a high-level cleric and very specific in-character knowledge. I'm not sure if there's anyone who knows about these souls other than Xykon and Redcloak.

[hroþila]

Repair the rifts? If that were possible, why wouldn't the gods already be doing it rather than debating if they're going to destroy the world or not? Even the Order of the Scribble didn't actually repair the rifts, they just put the equivalent of a patch over them and the rifts are tearing open worse now the patches are gone.

Obviously I meant repair the Gates.

[factotum]

Obviously I meant repair the Gates.

We have no evidence that will even work, given the rifts are far larger now than they were when the gates were constructed.

[Worldsong]

We have no evidence that will even work, given the rifts are far larger now than they were when the gates were constructed.

If Xykon was permanently deaded during the battle of Azure City (courtesy of Soon or whoever followed Soon's instructions) there might have been an opportunity to start containing the rifts with new gates before they grew out of control.

Also we have no evidence that there's a limit to how big a gate can be.

[hroþila]

We have no evidence that will even work, given the rifts are far larger now than they were when the gates were constructed.

*shrugs*
We have little reason to believe it won't work. The original rifts came in different sizes and the same spell worked on all of them.

[Squire Doodad]

*shrugs*
We have little reason to believe it won't work. The original rifts came in different sizes and the same spell worked on all of them.

Yes, we have not seen the Redmountain Hill rift, meaning that for all we know the cap for sealing a rift is actually half the size of the world or something.

What if the Snarl got killed by the mountain falling in on its "core", and the scene with Girard's rift is just from leftover tendrils reacting, sort of like a roach that quivers and hits you even though the thing itself is dead.

And so we have all this hubbub about getting to the last rift and everyone finds out that the Snarl is already dead. Killed by a pile of rubble that rolled a lot of natural 20s.
Goodnight everyone :D

[RatElemental]

The thing is, the gates don't really hold the Snarl, being made of only three colors. Plus, resurrecting Lirian and Dorukan requires a high-level cleric and very specific in-character knowledge. I'm not sure if there's anyone who knows about these souls other than Xykon and Redcloak.

The gates held the snarl back for a few decades already at least, time enough to work out a deal with the Dark One once all his plans have gone up in flames. As for the character knowledge needed for that, the OotS already knew about the Scribblers before the invasion even happened, and all it would take would be V and Durkon applying detect magic to Xykon's possessions to find out he had a gem with two active soul bind spells on it.

Also, Durkon is a high level cleric, and was at the time too.

[Kelenius]

The gates held the snarl back for a few decades already at least, time enough to work out a deal with the Dark One once all his plans have gone up in flames. As for the character knowledge needed for that, the OotS already knew about the Scribblers before the invasion even happened, and all it would take would be V and Durkon applying detect magic to Xykon's possessions to find out he had a gem with two active soul bind spells on it.

Also, Durkon is a high level cleric, and was at the time too.

They hold Snarl back to a degree, but can't hold him forever. We don't know how long the new gates would work. Rifts are now much bigger than they were when the old gates were placed.

And even if Durkon got his hands on the gem, he still needs a portion of their bodies (who knows where they are now), and they need to be willing to return (not guaranteed).

[RatElemental]

They hold Snarl back to a degree, but can't hold him forever. We don't know how long the new gates would work. Rifts are now much bigger than they were when the old gates were placed.

And even if Durkon got his hands on the gem, he still needs a portion of their bodies (who knows where they are now), and they need to be willing to return (not guaranteed).

The gates as they are now, with even more of them destroyed, have managed to hold for the better part of a year by this point. With no bargaining chips at all the Dark One would have to be phenomenally stubborn to continue to refuse contact with the other gods, it's possible they wouldn't even need to rebuild the gates until after he'd already worked out some kind of deal with them.

As well, assuming the corpses aren't just ashes in the ocean somewhere, Locate Object, Greater Scrying (surely literally holding someone's soul in your hand is enough for the -10 to the will save?), and Discern Location all exist. A long way to go to bring two dead people back to life, but when it's two dead people who know how to keep reality itself from unraveling, even for a few more months or even weeks, I think it'd be worth the effort.

Admittedly, they very well could refuse to be raised. I think that's highly unlikely if the order could somehow communicate with them inside the gem before attempting it, though.

[Kelenius]

The gates as they are now, with even more of them destroyed, have managed to hold for the better part of a year by this point.

We don't know if the ritual can even work at a gate this large. Sealing a rift is what apparently caused Kraagor to die, and that was a small one; and the gates only prevent the rifts from growing bigger. We don't know what is really going on anymore.

With no bargaining chips at all the Dark One would have to be phenomenally stubborn to continue to refuse contact with the other gods

Sounds about right.

it's possible they wouldn't even need to rebuild the gates until after he'd already worked out some kind of deal with them

This isn't very clear. It looks like they'll still need a level 17 cleric to seal the rifts permanently, and there might be no time to raise someone to that level.

As well, assuming the corpses aren't just ashes in the ocean somewhere

They might easily be disintegrated or burned to ashes and scattered. Xykon isn't very careful about his undead.

Locate Object

Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Greater Scrying

Dead body is an object. And it's been established that you can't scry on dead people.

and Discern Location

That's a level 8 spell, people who can cast it are rare. I'm not even sure if there are any. V just got level 8 spells.

[Kish]

That's a level 8 spell, people who can cast it are rare. I'm not even sure if there are any. V just got level 8 spells.

Not addressing the rest, but I kind of think "at the beginning of Blood Runs in the Family" is stretching it to call "just."

[Squire Doodad]

Not addressing the rest, but I kind of think "at the beginning of Blood Runs in the Family" is stretching it to call "just."

Timewise, V basically got them a few weeks ago I think.

[factotum]

Would he have level 9 spells? The current plan for stopping the Snarl hinges on that.

The specific clause was that the amount of power the gods needed was equivalent to one ninth level spell. They never said it actually had to *be* a spell--presumably if they could get the message to TDO that they needed a bit of his power, and he believed in the need, he could provide it directly.

[a_flemish_guy]

Eh, Redcloak was able to deal with the lower level ghost martyrs pretty quickly after he knew what they were. Xykon had a pretty rough time with them because he didn't know what he was doing, had they been able to poof the lower level ones from the start I think they'd be a lot better off in the fight and have a better chance against Soon.

my impression was that the lower lever ghost martyrs were essentially chaff, it were only the higher level palladins and especially soon who's epic level that could do the damage

[Vemynal]

this has got to be the longest running Miko thread not to get locked lol

[Squire Doodad]

This isn't very clear. It looks like they'll still need a level 17 cleric to seal the rifts permanently, and there might be no time to raise someone to that level.

Actually, if the comic stops there then even though we would now know the world is doomed, in so far as everyone else is aware nothing bad will happen. So in a strange, circuitous way Tarquin would appreciate, the world would be saved by virtue of no one recognizing that the world is doomed.

[hamishspence]

this has got to be the longest running Miko thread not to get locked lol

One managed to get to 51 pages, get locked specifically for being too long, a second thread being created which went to 34 pages and never got locked.

So - that puts the record at 85 pages and no locking for reasons other than length.

[Fyraltari]

Was it about Miko from the start or did the subject creep in midway through the thread?

[HorizonWalker]

I think this one lasted so long because Miko was the original subject, and therefore we've gotten bored of her and derailed multiple times. Meaning, we weren't constantly talking about Miko.

[hamishspence]

Was it about Miko from the start or did the subject creep in midway through the thread?

Was about Miko (and Roy) from the start. Was the cause of the "no more Morally Justified threads" rules, as the first of those threads.