What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Lacuna Caster]

My impression was that the only thing Shojo had done that was really a big, magistrate-worthy deal was faking the outcome of a trial.

We know this. Hinjo and Miko don't. What she knows is that Shojo and Roy colluded to, at minimum, release a dangerous serial killer along with a bunch of folks whose last known contribution consisted of blowing up a Gate, and that they most likely lied or at best withheld vital information about destroying Xykon (even true resurrection won't work on the undead). This is legitimately a situation that casts Shojo and the Order in an extremely poor light.

[Peelee]

Okay, if Azurite law has some set of unreasonably specific exception in the case of the liege lord or his immediate associates, fine, maybe then Miko can't arrest him. But we were talking about what Miko might reasonably want to do. Miko has reasonable grounds for suspecting that Shojo, Roy & Co. are and were up to no good, and there's an evil lich about to batter down the city gates. Demanding that they detained until the crisis is past is not an unreasonable thing to expect.

I may have edited the post too late, but the point is that exceptions don't need to be unreasonable or even specific to the lord of the city.

[Kish]

I think the shape of the story is unambiguously "Shojo would have gone to prison, had Miko not killed him," not "Shojo would have waved Hinjo off with 'no matter how much you disapprove of what I've done, Hinjo, I haven't broken the law.'" What he would have been charged with, the details of the trial--I don't know, or see them as particularly relevant.

If I'm wrong, and Belkar was wrong that Hinjo would have thrown Shojo in prison...then it reflects even worse on him that he didn't come back. "I'm not coming back to be thrown in prison, even though that means leaving the people I supposedly did everything for to the tender mercies of a hobgoblin horde" is bad; "I'm not coming back to be frowned at by my nephew even though etc." is worse.

[Peelee]

I think the shape of the story is unambiguously "Shojo would have gone to prison, had Miko not killed him," not "Shojo would have waved Hinjo off with 'no matter how much you disapprove of what I've done, Hinjo, I haven't broken the law.'" What he would have been charged with, the details of the trial--I don't know, or see them as particularly relevant.

Oh, I totally agree that Shojo would have been charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned, but given how his absence in command was influential on the imminent battle, when and how those would have happened I'm not nearly so certain on.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Citation required for Azurite law.

ETA: My overall point isn't to be flippant, it's that you don't know what other factors may play into this. Right off the bat, there may be a wartime provision that exempts the ruler from being detained during an assault. Or Hinjo could choose to wait until detaining Shojo until after the battle, because he's already effectively ROR'd, as the lord of the city. Among many, many other potential factors.

Well, Hinjo told Shojo to "save it for the magistrates," that "it's up to the courts to decide what happens next," which makes it sound like he was planning to at least give him one of those pre-trial hearings where they decide whether or not to go through with a trial. This indicates that Shojo could have been prosecuted. If my brief reread of the strips in question are accurate, this was after Hinjo learned of Xykon's army advancing on Azure City.

Oh, I totally agree that Shojo would have been charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned, but given how his absence in command was influential on the imminent battle, when and how those would have happened I'm not nearly so certain on.

I'm not convinced that his absence in command would actually have been an obstacle, so much as his absence in spirit (and the scandal around how nobody was allowed to know how he died). More closure probably means less scandal, and hence fewer desertions and fewer reasons for nobles to run off or stage a coup-by-ninja.

[Aquillion]

We know this. Hinjo and Miko don't. What she knows is that Shojo and Roy colluded to, at minimum, release a dangerous serial killer along with a bunch of folks whose last known contribution consisted of blowing up a Gate, and that they most likely lied or at best withheld vital information about destroying Xykon (even true resurrection won't work on the undead). This is legitimately a situation that casts Shojo and the Order in an extremely poor light.

Also, they literally walked in right as he was agreeing to toss three other people into jail with no trial and, presumably, hold them indefinitely. That is probably against the law. We're inclined to overlook it because we know that those people were Nale and co, but nobody outside the Order would know that (even Shojo didn't bother to ask).

O-Chul signed off on it, if grudgingly, but he presumably thought Shojo as mad at the time - the fact that Shojo was doing this while lucid as part of a larger political plan changes things.

I... don't see anything unreasonable about insisting on Shojo being, at minimum, forcibly detained at that point. It's not like him being in cahoots with Xykon has exactly been disproven either.

I'm not really talking about whether it's reasonable or unreasonable - that's not the point.

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.

[Rodin]

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.

An interesting thought on this:

It's clear from O-Chul's actions that he was not aware of Soon's final protection for the Gate. He would have fought to delay Xykon while the ghosts were raised instead of racing to destroy the stone (making the protection moot). It's not unreasonable then to assume that Miko didn't know about it either, meaning that the result of Miko being in the throne room is that the gate gets shattered a bit earlier than it did. The bouncy ball of madness goes off, leaving just O-Chul and Miko. One of the two fights Xykon while the other runs to destroy the Gate, or both make the run and Xykon can't stop both of them. Without the presence of the Gate, Soon doesn't appear, and Xykon and Redcloak go on to win the day much as they did before.

[Fyraltari]

An interesting thought on this:

It's clear from O-Chul's actions that he was not aware of Soon's final protection for the Gate. He would have fought to delay Xykon while the ghosts were raised instead of racing to destroy the stone (making the protection moot). It's not unreasonable then to assume that Miko didn't know about it either, meaning that the result of Miko being in the throne room is that the gate gets shattered a bit earlier than it did. The bouncy ball of madness goes off, leaving just O-Chul and Miko. One of the two fights Xykon while the other runs to destroy the Gate, or both make the run and Xykon can't stop both of them. Without the presence of the Gate, Soon doesn't appear, and Xykon and Redcloak go on to win the day much as they did before.

At least five paladins* beside O-Chul were unaffected by Xykon's symbol of insanity. I'm not sure Miko would have made that much of a difference, given that Xykon can fly.


*Not sure if the suicidee in the last panel was never affected or if the spell ended.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm not really talking about whether it's reasonable or unreasonable - that's not the point.

The point is that if he's arrested immediately (before the battle), then Miko not killing him didn't actually change much, at least not up until the point where she shattered the gate-gem.

Well, you remarked that "The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her", which suggests that Miko would have to be unreasonable to some degree to insist on Shojo's immediate detention. Whereas... I find it difficult to come up with reasonable grounds for *not* doing that.

[Lacuna Caster]

At least five paladins* beside O-Chul were unaffected by Xykon's symbol of insanity. I'm not sure Miko would have made that much of a difference, given that Xykon can fly.

Xykon gloats that the only reason why O-Chul got as close to smashing the gate as he did is because he wanted to give him false hope. If several paladins had rushed for the gem at once, Xykon would've used mass-hold-person or resilient sphere or some other fruck-you-I-win spell to end the battle.

[woweedd]

Well, you remarked that "The prompt just posits a non-murderous version of her, not a 100% reasonable version of her", which suggests that Miko would have to be unreasonable to some degree to insist on Shojo's immediate detention. Whereas... I find it difficult to come up with reasonable grounds for *not* doing that.

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.

[hroþila]

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.

The flip side of that is that leaving the guy you're going to arrest in charge for a huge battle offers him a great opportunity to put his own interests ahead of those of the city.

[Lacuna Caster]

I mean... I can some pragmatic logic in “maybe we should hold off on arresting the leader of the city, forcing us to undergo a chaotic transiston of power, until when we don’t have a billion hobgoblins about to murder us.

The flip side of that is that leaving the guy you're going to arrest in charge for a huge battle offers him a great opportunity to put his own interests ahead of those of the city.

Yes, particularly if those interests potentially involve colluding with the evil lich currently leading the hobgoblin horde.

[Keltest]

Yes, particularly if those interests potentially involve colluding with the evil lich currently leading the hobgoblin horde.

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases. Hinjo doesn't really seem on board with those charges, and indeed im not aware that Miko even was suspicious of him, in particular, until after she walked in the room.

[hamishspence]

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases.

Yes - it's fairly safe to say that she's talking about the Order here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html

and has already decided they are liars obstructing the mission of the Sapphire Guard, long before she meets Xykon. She's just using his survival to support conclusions she's already made.

A less biased person would have concluded only that they are mistaken about destroying Xykon, not that they were lying about it.

[Lacuna Caster]

Those particular charges should have been fairly easy to refute, since they were based on Shojo working with the Order and Miko assuming the Order was evil because of her own biases. Hinjo doesn't really seem on board with those charges...

Hinjo is willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt because he and Belkar defend him from Miko. In some hypothetical scenario where Miko overhears Shojo's conversation but doesn't immediately kill him, she can still connect the dots between Xykon, Roy and Shojo.

A less biased person would have concluded only that they are mistaken about destroying Xykon, not that they were lying about it.

Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

[hamishspence]

It's not a case of "giving them the benefit of the doubt" it's a case of "not assuming the worst".

Remember, at the moment she discovered Xykon was alive - she had no idea about the trial. Yet she still jumps to the assumption that they are liars who were somehow magically able to shield their lies from being detected.

[Keltest]

Hinjo is willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt because he and Belkar defend him from Miko. In some hypothetical scenario where Miko overhears Shojo's conversation but doesn't immediately kill him, she can still connect the dots between Xykon, Roy and Shojo.


Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

Its not really the benefit of the doubt so much as recognizing that she has no evidence that theyre actually colluding whatsoever. She reaches that conclusion because she wants it to be true, but she doesn't actually have any proof at all.

[Lacuna Caster]

Its not really the benefit of the doubt so much as recognizing that she has no evidence that theyre actually colluding whatsoever. She reaches that conclusion because she wants it to be true, but she doesn't actually have any proof at all.

It's not a case of "giving them the benefit of the doubt" it's a case of "not assuming the worst"...

As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.

[Keltest]

As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.

The key word there is not suspicion, but reasonable. There was nothing reasonable about Miko's suspicion. As Roy points out, her train of thought is self contradictory.

[GreatWyrmGold]

*Not sure if the suicidee in the last panel was never affected or if the spell ended.

Her last line was Oh Twelve Gods...what have I done?" "What have I done," not "What is going on?" or something. (Also, it looks like she's therein the seventh and eighth panels.)

Why on earth would you conclude that? There is absolutely nothing that the Order have done to make them look particularly trustworthy, and the trial itself appears to have been a fabrication. Why should she, in any way shape or fashion, be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

Even assuming "innocent until proven guilty" isn't in fashion with the Sapphire Guard, I don't think Roy's kept it a secret that his father swore a blood oath against Xykon. We don't get much detail on those oaths, but I'm guessing it's enough to make Roy look distinctly less guilty in working with the guy he needs to try to kill to get into Celestia.

As mentioned earlier, you are allowed to arrest people on the basis of reasonable suspicion. Conviction and sentencing, or even excessively long-term detention, are not the same thing, sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about grounds for arrest. If nothing else, you need to make sure that he doesn't, e.g, literally commandeer a pet wizard and teleport out of the city with his cronies. Arresting Shojo is the baseline minimum precaution here, and him being Lord of the city makes that more important, not less.

Wait, are you talking about "arresting Shojo due to the crimes he admitted to in the throne room," or "arresting Shojo and the Order because Miko's story about them working for Xykon could be true"?

[Lacuna Caster]

Even assuming "innocent until proven guilty" isn't in fashion with the Sapphire Guard, I don't think Roy's kept it a secret that his father swore a blood oath against Xykon. We don't get much detail on those oaths, but I'm guessing it's enough to make Roy look distinctly less guilty in working with the guy he needs to try to kill to get into Celestia.

But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.

Wait, are you talking about "arresting Shojo due to the crimes he admitted to in the throne room," or "arresting Shojo and the Order because Miko's story about them working for Xykon could be true"?

Oh, there's clear and abundant justification for arresting both Shojo and Order, purely on the basis of what was overheard in the throne room about conspiring to rig a trial, liberate belkar, etc.

The question is whether the impending battle with Xykon and his goons would justify suspending arrest until after the battle is conducted, on the basis that Shojo (and perhaps the Order) would be useful to the Azurite cause. I would argue that cloud of suspicion they're under makes them look like more a liability, or at least that they have to be treated as such until a formal investigation clears their name.

[woweedd]

But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.


Oh, there's clear and abundant justification for arresting both Shojo and Order, purely on the basis of what was overheard in the throne room about conspiring to rig a trial, liberate belkar, etc.

The question is whether the impending battle with Xykon and his goons would justify suspending arrest until after the battle is conducted, on the basis that Shojo (and perhaps the Order) would be useful to the Azurite cause. I would argue that cloud of suspicion they're under makes them look like more a liability, or at least that they have to be treated as such until a formal investigation clears their name.

Yes, Miko wouldn't trust his statements, because Miko is a paranoiac, who is very much not reasonable.

[grandpheonix]

I like to think the gate would have been defended, the hobos all killed except for red cloak. Team evil would have fallen back and headed to girards gate, which would have been defended by girard. For like, a minute. By the time the order got there the gate would have been claimed and in mid spell.

Maybe.

[factotum]

Team evil would have fallen back and headed to girards gate, which would have been defended by girard.

No it wouldn't--Girard has been dead for years, they found his tomb in the foyer of the pyramid in the desert.

[zimmerwald1915]

No it wouldn't--Girard has been dead for years, they found his tomb in the foyer of the pyramid in the desert.

I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.

[Jasdoif]

I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.

Does that mean they were hoisted by their own girard?

[woweedd]

I'm sure he would appreciate, however, reference to his descendants as extensions of himself.

Ironically, for someone who claims to be Chaotic, he was oddly authorian.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ironically, for someone who claims to be Chaotic, he was oddly authorian.

I don't think we saw enough of daily life in Girard's guild to say anything more specific than "he's organized".

[Lacuna Caster]

But why would Miko et al think that Roy is telling the truth about the blood oath any more than he told the truth about destroying Xykon in the first place? You can't use Roy's statements to prove his trustworthiness if you can't trust his statements to begin with.

To be fair, there are always Zone of Truth/Discern Lies spells, but if those didn't work during the trial it's not obvious they'd work here.