Is default number of encounters per day in 5E it's biggest flaw?

[MaxWilson]

I was using the threshold for each encounter difficulty. At level 12 you've got 11,500 divided by 1,000, or 11.5 encounters. At level 3 it's 1,200 divided by 75, which is 16.

Okay. I'll merely observe then that the just-barely-Easy threshold is not, in my experience, representative of the typical Easy encounter, and so on for other difficulties. If anything a encounters tend to skew high IME, but maybe I'm just a jerk DM who delights in making "Easy" encounters as difficult as possible while still remaining Easy, etc. Maybe every other DM out there delights in the opposite, making Easy encounters just barely hard enough not to fall off the difficulty table entirely.

[JoeJ]

Okay. I'll merely observe then that the just-barely-Easy threshold is not, in my experience, representative of the typical Easy encounter, and so on for other difficulties. If anything a encounters tend to skew high IME, but maybe I'm just a jerk DM who delights in making "Easy" encounters as difficult as possible while still remaining Easy, etc. Maybe every other DM out there delights in the opposite, making Easy encounters just barely hard enough not to fall off the difficulty table entirely.

This wasn't intended as a commentary on anybody's DMing style. I just wanted to know the actual range of encounters per day that fit within the xp budget given in the DMG if no encounter goes over the minimum threshold for deadly or under the minimum for easy.

[MeimuHakurei]

To answer the title question, I'd say it's close to the problem, but not quite: It's not that there's too many/few encounters per day, it's that the awkward short rest mechanic along with the general lack of tools for time pressure (and noncombat encounters) means that holding up this encounter day is exceedingly difficult. 1 hour is a long time for a break and often in areas where an 8 hour rest is also possible, discouraging short resting most of the time (The gritty rest rules usually don't have this problem, however). The game also doesn't reward pushing on for more encounters like 4e does, either.

That said, handling encounter days has the additional caveat that not always do player want (or in fact, are able to) to complete the encounter day and rest early. While abusing long rests is a problem, so is forcing the group to march forward into a guaranteed TPK due to lack of resources. And interrupting a long rest will only make the group want to long rest even more.

[Pelle]

Then either don't spend them early or play a character like a Rogue who doesn't rely on them.

That's possible to do, but doesn't change that the game would be even more fun (for how my group plays) if the total amount of resources available were halved.

[Benny89]

I have problem with short rests because many times they seem totally out of place from story perspective. For example I had an "adventuring day" where party was chasing a members of cult who kidnapped a young girl. There were pressed by time hard and encounters were designed so they can feel desperation of "not making it" and press on harder to save the girl in time. There were 2 encounters before they reached them + puzzle and then a final fight with dramatic ending.

There is no way in circumstances like, and when narrative is flowing smoothly that someone will say "ok, but let's take a 1 hour short rest". You can't waste hour, even minutes for something like, and you can't waste time for 2 such rests.

Therefore party short-rest member was out of resources most of the chase. You could say it's my fault as DM, but I wanted to make that desperate race with time feeling, and short rest classes are just not suitable for that. Long Rest have to divide their resources but they can, with smart playing, make that in the end they still have some left.

Short rests in general are imo totally counter-narrative many times. "We beaten those enemies here, but the castle is burning, people are dying.... they are for the artifact!! We have to get to Princess!", "Ok, nice, but can we take a 1 hour rest please first?"

It's just....well, stupid in so many cases when you make dynamic events in your story.

Not every story is "Dunegon, Room to Room fight, rest between" as it's well... Not really exciting plot. At least not when it happens too often.

[ad_hoc]

There were 2 encounters before they reached them + puzzle and then a final fight with dramatic ending.

That is right in line with the amount of encounters on average that will be had between short rests.

It's also completely okay to have a day where there were 4+ encounters between short rests. Gives the Rogue a chance to shine.

As is my constant recommendation; play a published adventure to learn how to properly pace the game. There is even a great example of a chase like this in OotA.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That is right in line with the amount of encounters on average that will be had between short rests.

It's also completely okay to have a day where there were 4+ encounters between short rests. Gives the Rogue a chance to shine.

Exactly. As long as on average there's a mix of fights everyone will be fine. Some days the SR people shine. Other days the LR people shine. And on yet others the no-rest people (rogues) shine.

The balance of this edition is not so fragile as to be shattered by variation. In fact, it's improved by variation, by uncertainty. Unless you have munchkins and no concern for in-universe consequences (ie in AL), the story and balance concerns work out fine.

And if you really have a situation that doesn't give time for short rests, consider giving out short-rest tokens--single-use items that they can burn (as long as they have a minute to catch their breath) to get the benefit of a short rest. I gave out literal in-game items (called "Apprentices's Friend", basically magical black coffee). They got 2 of them and not everyone had to use them at the same time. They came with a drawback that occurred if they used too many before they got a long rest (so if they pooled them and one PC chugged them), but they never hit this point.

[Benny89]

That is right in line with the amount of encounters on average that will be had between short rests.

It's also completely okay to have a day where there were 4+ encounters between short rests. Gives the Rogue a chance to shine.

As is my constant recommendation; play a published adventure to learn how to properly pace the game. There is even a great example of a chase like this in OotA.

I don't think you understood what I meant. I meant that in dynamic adventure day a short rest is simple not possible from role play/narrative perspective. I gave examples above.

My point was that short rest itself is many times just not suitable considering events during adventure day. Long rest is much more intuitive.

With all due respect to anyone who likes published adventures, me and my friends find them too banal and simplistic from story perspective. They feel... very artificial, if you know what I mean. They are just not for our taste, no offense.

And if you really have a situation that doesn't give time for short rests, consider giving out short-rest tokens--single-use items that they can burn (as long as they have a minute to catch their breath) to get the benefit of a short rest. I gave out literal in-game items (called "Apprentices's Friend", basically magical black coffee). They got 2 of them and not everyone had to use them at the same time. They came with a drawback that occurred if they used too many before they got a long rest (so if they pooled them and one PC chugged them), but they never hit this point.

I understand I can do many things as DM, but what I am saying is that default/RAW rules of short resting are just...well, bad in my opinion.

Of course I can houserule everything, but that is home solution, the flaw in system still stays.

[sophontteks]

I don't think you understood what I meant. I meant that in dynamic adventure day a short rest is simple not possible from role play/narrative perspective. I gave examples above.

My point was that short rest itself is many times just not suitable considering events during adventure day. Long rest is much more intuitive.

With all due respect to anyone who likes published adventures, me and my friends find them too banal and simplistic from story perspective. They feel... very artificial, if you know what I mean. They are just not for our taste, no offense.



I understand I can do many things as DM, but what I am saying is that default/RAW rules of short resting are just...well, bad in my opinion.

Of course I can houserule everything, but that is home solution, the flaw in system still stays.

From a roleplay standpoint its completely unrealistic for your characters to be rolling through multiple encounters without stopping to catch their breath, stretching, conspiring their next move, bandaging their wounds, and eating some trail mix. Are you roleplaying adventurers or robots?

The only reason it seems unreasonable is because time is frozen while characters make plans, and the time lapse of rounds is unreasonably accelerated.

Combat lasts 18 seconds (3 rounds) on average. You can roll through a dungeon in 1-2 minutes going by rounds. By these standards an hour is long, and an adventuring day is an eternity.

[Skylivedk]

That is right in line with the amount of encounters on average that will be had between short rests.

It's also completely okay to have a day where there were 4+ encounters between short rests. Gives the Rogue a chance to shine.

As is my constant recommendation; play a published adventure to learn how to properly pace the game. There is even a great example of a chase like this in OotA.

You keep mentioning the published adventures and my experience has been uniformly bad (see spoiler in last post) with them when it comes to the rest mechanic. Which ones do you feel do a good job? I'd like to try the best one possible next time I play (1 of my 3 groups is entirely house rule free except for critical rolls, both success and failure).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't think you understood what I meant. I meant that in dynamic adventure day a short rest is simple not possible from role play/narrative perspective. I gave examples above.

My point was that short rest itself is many times just not suitable considering events during adventure day. Long rest is much more intuitive.

With all due respect to anyone who likes published adventures, me and my friends find them too banal and simplistic from story perspective. They feel... very artificial, if you know what I mean. They are just not for our taste, no offense.

I understand I can do many things as DM, but what I am saying is that default/RAW rules of short resting are just...well, bad in my opinion.

Of course I can houserule everything, but that is home solution, the flaw in system still stays.

From a roleplay standpoint its completely unrealistic for your characters to be rolling through multiple encounters without stopping to catch their breath, stretching, conspiring their next move, bandaging their wounds, and eating some trail mix. Are you roleplaying adventurers or robots?

The only reason it seems unreasonable is because time is frozen while characters make plans, and the time lapse of rounds is unreasonably accelerated.

Combat lasts 18 seconds (3 rounds) on average. You can roll through a dungeon in 1-2 minutes going by rounds. By these standards an hour is long, and an adventuring day is an eternity.

This is very true. The vast majority of all adventuring days are not "exciting chases where every second counts". If they are, that's you causing the problem, not the system.

And consider the options.

1. No more SR, everything is LR-based (or at will). This was what 3e did. The (much worse) 5-minute working day was the result. And that's horrible for the story aspect--much worse than having an hour break here and there. This also encourages novas, which leaves out those who can't nova. Or if you do the SRx3 resource hack, you end up with warlocks being able to nova harder than anyone. No wins here.

2. Most things recharge after an encounter (ie 5-minute SR). The 4e way. If you take this too far, it stretches the imagination and makes everybody feel the same without much to differentiate the classes from a resource perspective. But there's a variant for this in the DMG--if you can't take time for a 1hr SR, use the Heroic Rest variant instead. That's what it's there for.

3. No recharging resources at all (ie everything is at-will). Yeah, that's a bit far from the core feel of D&D. D&D has always had a mix of resources styles.

4. Mana/stamina bars. I personally find these obnoxious outside a video game. If they don't regen in discrete chunks after rests, they're a pain to deal with. If they do, then see above.

[Benny89]

From a roleplay standpoint its completely unrealistic for your characters to be rolling through multiple encounters without stopping to catch their breath, stretching, conspiring their next move, bandaging their wounds, and eating some trail mix.

It's very realistic when you are chasing someone, when there is siege going and walls are falling, when you have to stop a ritual from going off, when one of your party members is dying, when they know they have to resolve a plot by the end of the day or culprit will get away or an innocent person will lose their live. When you are running out of dungeon filled with toxic mist that makes you lose your senses. When you need to get an antidote for poisoned NPC, who is a key figure for story etc.

The above story ideas are very normal, standard things in RPG games. I am not saying I do all of this above every session, but those are quite common ideas in RPGs. I am not making anything original here. You never had such adventures?

Of course I am making problems- I am trying to make interesting, good plots and stories that will be remembered and are exciting. Not go from A to B, fight, go from B to C, fight. Not killing yet another dragon in cave or on mountain (at least not all the time). I am saying that this short/long rest system was made totally for different kind of narratives it seems. More artificial, less realistic.

Sometimes I think most people just go from orc band, through couple demons to dragon 9/10 time in DnD resting and relaxing between... No offense.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's a very normal, standard thing in RPG games. I am not saying I do all of this above every session, but those are quite standard ideas in RPG stories. I am not making anything original here. You never had such adventures?

Those adventures are fine, but they're only memorable when they're the exception, not the rule. If every (or even most) quest is on such a rushed timeline, then you should use the Heroic Rest variant instead. That's what it's there for.

In general, good gameplay has a rhythm to it. Slow sessions mixed with frantic sessions. A blend of time spent playing with goblin children and time spent assaulting a Dark Lady's fortress to stop her ritual ascension (that would also kill all life for miles around). And much in between.

Both of those are real examples from my longest-running campaign, both part of the same arc.

5e is adaptable. As long as you're not jamming the stick hard in one direction or the other, things work. And there are published, official variants for exactly the cases you're bringing up. And there's no need to stick with one variant or the other. You can swing back and forth as much as it makes sense in your campaign.

5e works on rulings, not rules. Don't think "oh, but that's homebrew" (and thus "improper" or "to be avoided"). You are the master of the rules, and if you stick to rules that are giving you problems you only have yourself to blame. Because the rules don't say to stick to them if they're giving you problems. They say to do what's best for your table.

On the other hand, those same rules work just fine for me and for many others. So saying that they're an objective flaw is wrong. They don't work for the play-style you've decided to use. That's all. Now you can adapt to that and make your group happy in one of two ways. Change the play-style or change the rules. Both of which are in your power.

[Benny89]

Those adventures are fine, but they're only memorable when they're the exception, not the rule. If every (or even most) quest is on such a rushed timeline, then you should use the Heroic Rest variant instead. That's what it's there for..

Yes of course they are exceptions or a turning/dynamic points during campaign between more slower phased adventures. Nevertheless they usually are most dramatic and challenging and this is where I have problems with short-rest classes.

Heroic Rest variant might be a good idea, thank you. I totally forgot about those. I may try to run this during Heroic part of campaign. Appreciate suggestion.

[ad_hoc]

{Scrubbed}

[sophontteks]

It's very realistic when you are chasing someone, when there is siege going and walls are falling, when you have to stop a ritual from going off, when one of your party members is dying, when they know they have to resolve a plot by the end of the day or culprit will get away or an innocent person will lose their live. When you are running out of dungeon filled with toxic mist that makes you lose your senses. When you need to get an antidote for poisoned NPC, who is a key figure for story etc.

The above story ideas are very normal, standard things in RPG games. I am not saying I do all of this above every session, but those are quite common ideas in RPGs. I am not making anything original here. You never had such adventures?

Of course I am making problems- I am trying to make interesting, good plots and stories that will be remembered and are exciting. Not go from A to B, fight, go from B to C, fight. Not killing yet another dragon in cave or on mountain (at least not all the time). I am saying that this short/long rest system was made totally for different kind of narratives it seems. More artificial, less realistic.

Sometimes I think most people just go from orc band, through couple demons to dragon 9/10 time in DnD resting and relaxing between... No offense.

There is nothing wrong with having moments where the players would go through multiple encounters without short resting, giving the long rest characters a chance to shine, just as there is nothing wrong with having moments where its easy to short rest between encounters, allowing short rest characters a chance to shine.

But you do have to contend with the roleplaying. Its just not realistic for characters to go through fight after fight without resting. That is breaking the immersion. Tension and excitement shouldn't be limited to just throwing combat encounter after combat encounter at your party. Is this creating memorable moments, or creating a slog of endless combat?

[Max_Killjoy]

On long rests being taken too often, why not just say that, like real sleep, you can't just go back to bed for another 8 hours 5 minutes after getting up -- unless you need 16 hours to fully recover anyway, in which case the long rest just needs to be longer anyway to get the recharges/resets.

[Unoriginal]

On long rests being taken too often, why not just say that, like real sleep, you can't just go back to bed for another 8 hours 5 minutes after getting up -- unless you need 16 hours to fully recover anyway, in which case the long rest just needs to be longer anyway to get the recharges/resets.

That's been said, yes. PCs can't rest if they are not tired enough to rest.

Which is why all that coffeelock stuff is nonsense.

[Benny89]

But you do have to contend with the roleplaying. Its just not realistic for characters to go through fight after fight without resting. That is breaking the immersion. ?

This is absolutely off-topic but it's nothing unusual for soldiers to be under extreme pressure for even days of constant combat or long hours before they can really take a proper rest (when adrenaline goes down and body can really rest, not just catch a breath). Same in older times for example during sieges where fights could be going for long hours before both sides had to call it a day and rest. Hell, a proper big scale battles between two armies could last for few hours. Surveillance from cops many times required a 12h without sleep activity.

There is nothing unrealistic in fight after fight without rest. Actually it's quite common during a war or extreme situations (and those are extreme situations during campaign). And since we don't have adventurers chasing for cults and dragons in real life- this is closest comparison you can get when it comes to that.

I don't think it breaks immersion, I actually think it increases it.

But that is off-topic and very table-dependent so let's drop it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

On long rests being taken too often, why not just say that, like real sleep, you can't just go back to bed for another 8 hours 5 minutes after getting up -- unless you need 16 hours to fully recover anyway, in which case the long rest just needs to be longer anyway to get the recharges/resets.

That's in the rules--you can only benefit from 1 long rest per 24 hours.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is absolutely off-topic but it's nothing unusual for soldiers to be under extreme pressure for even days of constant combat or long hours before they can really take a proper rest (when adrenaline goes down and body can really rest, not just catch a breath). Same in older times for example during sieges where fights could be going for long hours before both sides had to call it a day and rest. Hell, a proper big scale battles between two armies could last for few hours. Surveillance from cops many times required a 12h without sleep activity.

There is nothing unrealistic in fight after fight without rest. Actually it's quite common during a war or extreme situations (and those are extreme situations during campaign). And since we don't have adventurers chasing for cults and dragons in real life- this is closest comparison you can get when it comes to that.

I don't think it breaks immersion, I actually think it increases it.

But that is off-topic and very table-dependent so let's drop it.

But do note that doing so for more than a single day is going to cause serious issues. People just don't sustain long stretches of fever pitch/full attention very well at all. You're looking (in game terms) at a level of Exhaustion or so for doing this. Exceptions are exceptional--don't use exceptions to make rules. Adjust the rules when those exceptions come up, leaving the "happy path" un-altered.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's in the rules--you can only benefit from 1 long rest per 24 hours.

Huh. You know, it seems like a lot of these gimmicks that get pushed on this forum, well, are maybe the result of people not reading the actual rules?

[Skylivedk]

This is very true. The vast majority of all adventuring days are not "exciting chases where every second counts". If they are, that's you causing the problem, not the system.

And consider the options.

1. No more SR, everything is LR-based (or at will). This was what 3e did. The (much worse) 5-minute working day was the result. And that's horrible for the story aspect--much worse than having an hour break here and there. This also encourages novas, which leaves out those who can't nova. Or if you do the SRx3 resource hack, you end up with warlocks being able to nova harder than anyone. No wins here.

2. Most things recharge after an encounter (ie 5-minute SR). The 4e way. If you take this too far, it stretches the imagination and makes everybody feel the same without much to differentiate the classes from a resource perspective. But there's a variant for this in the DMG--if you can't take time for a 1hr SR, use the Heroic Rest variant instead. That's what it's there for.

3. No recharging resources at all (ie everything is at-will). Yeah, that's a bit far from the core feel of D&D. D&D has always had a mix of resources styles.

4. Mana/stamina bars. I personally find these obnoxious outside a video game. If they don't regen in discrete chunks after rests, they're a pain to deal with. If they do, then see above.

Re 1. Have you given any thoughts to my proposed version of this? SRx3 with encounter cap of SR? Biggest challenge I've seen with it so far is druids becoming even more versatile.

Re 2. Might try using more of the rest variants for the next campaign I DM.

Re 4. I've considered creating a system based on this inspired by the Witcher games. I struggle with reducing book keeping though. I don't want the logs of 3e

Not understanding how to play the game is not a fault of the game.

You could continue to complain on the internet that the resting rules are broken. Or you could learn how to play. There are excellent resources out there which teach how pacing works. You don't even really need to actually run a published adventure if you can read and understand how they work.

The resources are there, it's all on you.

Do you intend to come across as demeaning, condescending and arrogant? OP, Benny and I have each given polite reasons from different angles as to why the current mechanics can feel very clunky. Broad lines:

A) narrative reasons in high pressure environments (I've seen Malifice have great suggestions for this in other threads)

B) inter party dynamics and OOC perceptions of fun: long rest and no rest classes might both push to other play styles. Also, if you have weeks between sessions (not unusual for those with other commitments), it's not necessarily a great experience to have an entire session with none/few of your fun resources available (goes for both LR and SR based)

C) you keep mentioning the published adventures. I've requested you name them. I've played three and gone through how small a portion of them actually live up to the balanced adventuring days. I'm all ears for better ones

[sophontteks]

This is absolutely off-topic but it's nothing unusual for soldiers to be under extreme pressure for even days of constant combat or long hours before they can really take a proper rest (when adrenaline goes down and body can really rest, not just catch a breath). Same in older times for example during sieges where fights could be going for long hours before both sides had to call it a day and rest. Hell, a proper big scale battles between two armies could last for few hours. Surveillance from cops many times required a 12h without sleep activity.

There is nothing unrealistic in fight after fight without rest. Actually it's quite common during a war or extreme situations (and those are extreme situations during campaign). And since we don't have adventurers chasing for cults and dragons in real life- this is closest comparison you can get when it comes to that.

I don't think it breaks immersion, I actually think it increases it.

But that is off-topic and very table-dependent so let's drop it.

Great argument against long rests, but everyone in all those situations take short rests. How long can boxers go before they are exhausted? Why do you think soldiers in war are any different?

[Unoriginal]

Huh. You know, it seems like a lot of these gimmicks that get pushed on this forum, well, are maybe the result of people not reading the actual rules?

Well yeah. Did you expect otherwise?

Though there are also people who read the book and then claim the book says something very different than what is written.

I'm all for rulings and houserules and changing the game to fit your tastes, but a LOT of the things claim 5e fails to do is actually covered by the rules in an entirely reasonable manner.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well yeah. What did you expect?

Guess it just throws me off when I see vehement, assertive, bold statements of "fact" that turn out to be easily demonstrated to be counterfactual and thus false, especially when someone doubles-down on them as they become less supportable.

I mean, do they just not care about how it makes them look?

If I'm not certain about something, I hedge my statement to make that clear. When I see a bold statement of "fact" that doesn't seem right, I go do some reading, or I phrase my response as a question to get more info, before I respond to make sure I'm not mistaken myself.

[Rukelnikov]

4. Mana/stamina bars. I personally find these obnoxious outside a video game. If they don't regen in discrete chunks after rests, they're a pain to deal with. If they do, then see above.

I find the mystic system to be decent (even though it encourages nova too much) and it is consequent with sorcerery point costs too, so it shouldn't be that hard to adapt for them at least.

[Max_Killjoy]

4. Mana/stamina bars. I personally find these obnoxious outside a video game. If they don't regen in discrete chunks after rests, they're a pain to deal with. If they do, then see above.

I find the mystic system to be decent (even though it encourages nova too much) and it is consequent with sorcerery point costs too, so it shouldn't be that hard to adapt for them at least.

I've been poking at the idea of a caster that has a pool of "spell levels" to cast out of -- that is, if the have 9 "points", they can cast one 9th level spell, or nine 1st level spells, or a 4th and a 5th, or etc.

Looking up the Mystic on UA... my idea isn't going that far, and not Psionics... it's still spells, just more flexible in what can be cast, but less total raw power before they run out.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I find the mystic system to be decent (even though it encourages nova too much) and it is consequent with sorcerery point costs too, so it shouldn't be that hard to adapt for them at least.

I've been poking at the idea of a caster that has a pool of "spell levels" to cast out of -- that is, if the have 9 "points", they can cast one 9th level spell, or nine 1st level spells, or a 4th and a 5th, or etc.

Looking up the Mystic on UA... my idea isn't going that far, and not Psionics... it's still spells, just more flexible in what can be cast, but less total raw power before they run out.

This has all the problems with encouraging 5-minute working days, plus a bunch of balancing issues. Because not all spells of the same "level" are equal. It's also a lot more work to track.

I should be clear. I haven't found one that I really like. The Law of Conservation of Annoyance is in full effect here--the only real differences are in which parts are annoying.

And as for the idea of taking SRx3 = total resources but then limiting the number you can use in a combat (posted above):

For me it's the worst of all worlds.
1) it's totally arbitrary at that point and doesn't fit the fiction in any way. It's a pure game-balance dictate.
2) It still leaves those who can't nova unable to nova while encouraging novas by removing even the idea of taking short rests and having lots of fights.
3) It's more cumbersome to track--you have to track both "how many do I have left" and "how many have I used this fight/how many can I use this fight". Simplicity is a major issue for me (and for the designers).

[Rukelnikov]

This has all the problems with encouraging 5-minute working days, plus a bunch of balancing issues. Because not all spells of the same "level" are equal. It's also a lot more work to track.

This is not much more encouraging of 5 min workday than Sorcs already are, they can burn through most of their allotance with preparation and 3 rounds of combat if they want too.