The Nuclear Mage

[Pippin]

1. Be a sorcerer with as many bonus spell slots as possible.

2. Find a way to get, either permanently or for a long enough time:

• The Dweomerkeeper's Cloak of Mysteries supernatural ability (-1 level adjustment for all metamagic feats, except Heighten Spell)
• The Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic supernatural ability (-1 level adjustment for all metamagic feats, including Heighten Spell)
• The Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion supernatural ability.

Spoiler: With Arcane Fusion only

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3. We need the following feats:

• Twin Spell
• Repeat Spell
• Heighten Spell
• Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
• Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
• Residual Magic
• Earth Sense
• Earth Spell
• Arcane Thesis (Arcane Fusion)
• Arcane Thesis (Celerity)
• Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)

Spoiler

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You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Arcane Fusion with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.
You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Celerity with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.
You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Silent Image with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.

Please note: TR = Twinned, Repeated.

4. Persist Arcane Spellsurge on yourself and prior to combat, find a way to be immune to daze. For example, you could use Limited Wish and cast Favor of the Martyr on yourself.

Spoiler

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Any spell of interest you cast with Twin Spell and/or other metamagic feats now takes 1 standard action, including Celerity.

5. During your first turn in combat, cast a TR Silent Image heightened to the 10th level. This is worth a 7th-level spell slot thanks to Earth Spell, Practical Metamagic and Improved Metamagic.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	+2			2
1st-level spell slots used	0				0
5th-level spell slots used	0				0
7th-level spell slots used	1				1

Please note: a 2nd-level spell slot qualifies as a 1st-level spell slot, and so on.

6. During your second turn, you start with 1 standard action. You can increase this number to n standard actions if you cast a twinned Celerity n - 1 times. Since this quickly gets out of hand, I will only consider the case where you start the round with only 1 standard action, but you can do worse if you wish. The trick is to cast, as much as possible, TR Arcane Fusions (5th-level spell slot) and choose to duplicate a TR Celerity (4th-level spell slot) as well as a TR Silent Image (1st-level spell slot).

You start with 1 standard action. This is what you do next:

• 1 standard action ⇒ 1 TR Arcane Fusion = 2 repeated Arcane Fusions ⇒ 4 repeated Celerities + 4 repeated Silent Images = 4 standard actions + 4 repeated Silent Images.
• 4 standard actions ⇒ 4 TR Arcane Fusions = 8 repeated Arcane Fusions ⇒ 16 repeated Celerities + 16 repeated Silent Images = 16 standard actions + 16 repeated Silent Images.
• 16 standard actions ⇒ 16 TR Arcane Fusions = 32 repeated Arcane Fusions ⇒ 64 repeated Celerities + 64 repeated Silent Images = 64 standard actions + 64 repeated Silent Images.
• This could go on but I'll stop there.

Let me break this down:

• You have just cast 4+16+64 = 84 1st-level Silent Images heightened to the 10th-level for free (thank you Residual Magic).
• You have a spare 64 standard actions to spend, which could all be used to cast 63 TR 1st-level Silent Images, resulting in an additional 126 repeated Silent Images each heightened to the 10th-level for free, plus 1 TR 10th-level Silent Image (without Residual Magic so that you can start again next round), resulting in an additional 2 repeated Silent Images.
• You consumed a total of 1+4+16 = 21 5th-level spell slots (for Arcane Fusions) as well as a total of 63 1st-level spell slots (for Silent Images), plus 1 7th-level spell slot for the last heightened Silent Image.
• You have cast a grand total of 84+126+2 = 212 Silent Images heightened to the 10th-level this round, plus the 2 repeated ones from last round, so that's 214 Silent Images.
• Note that during the process, every single spell was cast with Repeat Spell, so next round you will cast for free: 2+8+32 = 42 Arcane Fusions, 4+16+64 = 84 Celerities and 4+16+64+128 = 212 already 10th-level Silent Images.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	214	+212		216
1st-level spell slots used	0	63			63
5th-level spell slots used	0	21			21
7th-level spell slots used	1	1			2

7. During your 3rd turn, you get:

• 42 Arcane Fusions ⇒ 84 repeated Celerities + 84 repeated Silent Images ⇒ 84 standard actions + 84 repeated Silent Images ⇒ 168+84 = 252 repeated 1st-level Silent Images.
• 84 Celerities ⇒ 84 standard actions ⇒ 168 repeated 1st-level Silent Images.
• 212 already 10th-level Silent Images.
• 1 standard action ⇒ 2 repeated 1st-level Silent Images.

To sum things up:

• You apply Residual Magic to all Silent Images you cast this turn, for a grand total of 252+168+212+2 = 634 Silent Images heightened to the 10th level.
• Doing so requires an additional 84+84+1 = 169 1st-level spell slots to burn.
• You still have another 252+168+2 = 422 already 10th-level Silent Images to cast next round.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	214	634	+422	850
1st-level spell slots used	0	63	169		232
5th-level spell slots used	0	21	0		21
7th-level spell slots used	1	1	0		2

8. During your 4th turn, you first enjoy the free additional 422 10th-level Silent Images, then you cast Plane Shift and leave.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	214	634	422	1,272
1st-level spell slots used	0	63	169	0	232
5th-level spell slots used	0	21	0	0	21
7th-level spell slots used	1	1	0	0	2

Spoiler: With both Arcane Fusion & Greater Arcane Fusion

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3. We need the following feats:

• Twin Spell
• Repeat Spell
• Heighten Spell
• Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
• Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
• Residual Magic
• Earth Sense
• Earth Spell
• Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion)
• Arcane Thesis (Arcane Fusion)
• Arcane Thesis (Celerity)
• Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)

Spoiler

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You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Greater Arcane Fusion with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.
You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Arcane Fusion with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.
You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Celerity with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.
You can now apply Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to Silent Image with a total level adjustment of 0 thanks to Arcane Thesis.

Please note: TR = Twinned, Repeated.

4. Persist Arcane Spellsurge on yourself and prior to combat, find a way to be immune to daze. For example, you could use Limited Wish and cast Favor of the Martyr on yourself.

Spoiler

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Any spell of interest you cast with Twin Spell and/or other metamagic feats now takes 1 standard action, including Celerity.

5. During your first turn in combat, cast a TR Silent Image heightened to the 10th level. This is worth a 7th-level spell slot thanks to Earth Spell, Practical Metamagic and Improved Metamagic.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	+2			2
1st-level spell slots used	0				0
7th-level spell slots used	1				1
8th-level spell slots used	0				0

Please note: a 2nd-level spell slot qualifies as a 1st-level spell slot, and so on.

6. During your second turn, you start with 1 standard action. You can increase this number to n standard actions if you cast a twinned Celerity n - 1 times. Since this quickly gets out of hand, I will only consider the case where you start the round with only 1 standard action, but you can do worse if you wish. The trick is to cast, as much as possible, TR Arcane Fusions (5th-level spell slot) and choose to duplicate a TR Celerity (4th-level spell slot) as well as a TR Silent Image (1st-level spell slot). The best way to pull this off is to cast TR Greater Arcane Fusions instead (8th-level spell slot) and choose to duplicate a TR Arcane Fusion (5th-level spell slot, see previously) and a TR Celerity (4th-level spell slot).

You start with 1 standard action. This is what you do next:

• Converting 1 standard action:
  ⇒ 1 TR Greater Arcane Fusion = 2 repeated Greater Arcane Fusions
  ⇒ 2 TR Arcane Fusions + 2 TR Celerities = 4 repeated Arcane Fusions + 4 repeated Celerities
  ⇒ 4 TR Celerities + 4 TR Silent Images + 4 repeated Celerities = 12 repeated Celerities + 8 repeated Silent Images
  ⇒ 12 standard actions + 8 repeated Silent Images.

• Now converting 12 standard actions:
  ⇒ 12 TR Greater Arcane Fusions = 24 repeated Greater Arcane Fusions
  ⇒ 24 TR Arcane Fusions + 24 TR Celerities = 48 repeated Arcane Fusions + 48 repeated Celerities
  ⇒ 48 TR Celerities + 48 TR Silent Images + 48 repeated Celerities = 144 repeated Celerities + 96 repeated Silent Images
  ⇒ 144 standard actions + 96 repeated Silent Images.

• This could go on but I'll stop there.

Let me break this down:

• You have just cast 8+96 = 104 1st-level Silent Images heightened to the 10th-level for free (thank you Residual Magic).
• You have a spare 144 standard actions to spend, which could all be used to cast 143 TR 1st-level Silent Images, resulting in an additional 286 repeated Silent Images each heightened to the 10th-level for free, plus 1 TR 10th-level Silent Image (without Residual Magic so that you can start again next round), resulting in an additional 2 repeated Silent Images.
• You consumed a total of 1+12 = 13 8th-level spell slots (for Greater Arcane Fusions) as well as a total of 143 1st-level spell slots (for Silent Images), plus 1 7th-level spell slot for the last heightened Silent Image.
• You have cast a grand total of 104+286+2 = 392 Silent Images heightened to the 10th-level this round, plus the 2 repeated ones from last round, so that's 394 Silent Images.
• Note that during the process, every single spell was cast with Repeat Spell, so next round you will cast for free: 2+24 = 26 Greater Arcane Fusions, 4+48 = 52 Arcane Fusions, 12+144 = 156 Celerities and 8+96+286+2 = 392 already 10th-level Silent Images.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	394	+392		396
1st-level spell slots used	0	143			143
7th-level spell slots used	1	1			2
8th-level spell slots used	0	13			13

7. During your 3rd turn, you get:

• 26 Greater Arcane Fusions:
  ⇒ 26 TR Arcane Fusions + 26 TR Celerities = 52 repeated Arcane Fusions + 52 repeated Celerities
  ⇒ 52 TR Celerities + 52 TR Silent Images + 52 repeated Celerities = 156 repeated Celerities + 104 repeated Silent Images
  ⇒ 156 standard actions + 104 repeated Silent Images

• 52 Arcane Fusions:
  ⇒ 52 TR Celerities + 52 TR Silent Images = 104 repeated Celerities + 104 repeated Silent Images.
  ⇒ 104 standard actions + 104 repeated Silent Images.

• 156 Celerities ⇒ 156 standard actions.
• 392 already 10th-level Silent Images.
• 1 standard action (at last).

To sum things up:

• You have to expend 156+104+156+1 = 417 standard actions, which you convert into 417 TR Silent Images, ergo 834 repeated Silent Images.
• You apply Residual Magic to all Silent Images you cast this turn, for a grand total of 104+104+392+834+2 = 1,436 Silent Images heightened to the 10th level.
• Doing so requires an additional 156+104+156+1 = 417 1st-level spell slots to burn.
• You still have another 834 already 10th-level Silent Images to cast next round.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	394	1,436	+834	1,832
1st-level spell slots used	0	143	417		560
7th-level spell slots used	1	1	0		2
8th-level spell slots used	0	13	0		13

8. During your 4th turn, you first enjoy the free additional 834 10th-level Silent Images, then you cast Plane Shift and leave.

Spoiler

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	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Total
Silent Images cast	2	394	1,436	834	2,666
1st-level spell slots used	0	143	417	0	560
7th-level spell slots used	1	1	0	0	2
8th-level spell slots used	0	13	0	0	13

Any thoughts? My apologies for the poor grammar.

[Rebel7284]

I mean, assuming that you can use Arcane Fusion to cast spells with Metamagic (which is unclear imo), this works. With that many feats and 23 class levels worth of prestige class features, it takes some shenanigans to get this to work though.

[thethird]

The only way of specifically doing this preepic, that comes to mind, would be to be an illithid savant.

Alternatively, you will benefit from using invisible spell (or other +0 level metamagic), to not need dweomerkeeper (or incantatrix). Since you are focusing on twin and repeat you could use 4 levels of halruan elder instead of dweomerkeeper (or incantatrix).

You could alternatively use tainted sorcerer, and just have fun with taint.

[ben-zayb]

What's the goal that you are aiming for?

Yes PO/TO does amazing stuff like that, if not much more.

[Uncle Pine]

I mean, assuming that you can use Arcane Fusion to cast spells with Metamagic (which is unclear imo), this works. With that many feats and 23 class levels worth of prestige class features, it takes some shenanigans to get this to work though.

When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.

It's clearly specified that you can apply metamagic feats to spells chosen with Arcane Fusion. However, if the goal is to get a bunch of free spell slots via Arcane Fusion, one could skip a whole lot of class levels, feats, and prep and simply nest unlimited sanctum Arcane Fusions within a single Arcane Fusion. This also works with the greater version of the spell.

Phenomenal arcane power!!! Itty bitty spell slot spent.

[Pippin]

The only way of specifically doing this preepic, that comes to mind, would be to be an illithid savant.

Alternatively, you will benefit from using invisible spell (or other +0 level metamagic), to not need dweomerkeeper (or incantatrix). Since you are focusing on twin and repeat you could use 4 levels of halruan elder instead of dweomerkeeper (or incantatrix).

You could alternatively use tainted sorcerer, and just have fun with taint.

You could also do that if you eat the right people as a Greater Doppelganger, or with the Ability Rip spell. We've discussed those recently in the Psionic Tricks & Tactics thread.

Thanks for pointing out the Halruan Elder PrC, I had completely forgotten! I'm not showcasing any particular build though, I leave that to anyone who wants to try it.

What's the goal that you are aiming for?

Yes PO/TO does amazing stuff like that, if not much more.

Oh sure! I've never come across anything that disastrous though.

I suppose the goal was to pull off the end of the world in just a couple of rounds.

It's clearly specified that you can apply metamagic feats to spells chosen with Arcane Fusion. However, if the goal is to get a bunch of free spell slots via Arcane Fusion, one could skip a whole lot of class levels, feats, and prep and simply nest unlimited sanctum Arcane Fusions within a single Arcane Fusion. This also works with the greater version of the spell.

I believe this does not work by RAW because Sanctum Spell changes the effective level of the spell, but its level remains the same.

[AvatarVecna]

You have three necessary metamagic feats for this build. Incantatrix will give you four bonus metamagic feats, and requires that you have one metamagic to enter (plus Iron Will), while Dweomerkeeper requires one item creation feat and the ability to cast arcane and divine spells, and ScM requires Spell Focus (Illusion). This means the "necessary feats" section also includes +2 metamagic, Spell Focus, Iron Will, and an item creation feat (largely for just filling out prereqs and bonus feats), to figure out when those feats are possible. 15 feats, with four of them coming from Incantatrix...those feats can all be gained by lvl 30 from just HD/Incantatrix, with each additional bonus feat reducing that lvl by 3 (human, flaw, flaw, etc). However, getting more than one such bonus feat is purely extra, because you can't pull this build off sooner than lvl 28 without essentially cheating (Sorcerer 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Dweomerkeeper 10/Incantatrix 10/ScM 3).

If you're not cheating on levels, this kinda thing isn't particularly impressive to pull off by lvl 28 because you could be doing much better by level 24; if you cut out dweomerkeeper, your build can be Human Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/ScM 5/Sorcerer +3 with two flaws; this build gives you 16 feats (which covers your ten necessary, your one slot filler, and your three prereqs, with two feats left over). Make those two extra feats in epic, taking Improved Metamagic and Improved Heighten Spell, and you've saved 10 levels while also having the ability to heighten beyond lvl 9. If you really wanna up the ante, instead of ScM 5/Sorcerer +3, go ScM 3/Red Wizard 5 (or Halruaan Elder 5) for playing around with Circle Magic.

If you are cheating on levels, this kinda thing isn't particularly impressive because you're already essentially cheating via ability stealing - why not steal more abilities and pump things even more ridiculous? Pun-pun's the limit.

[Pippin]

The last thing I wanted when I submitted this was to upset other people, or to be accused of cheating, or both.

Again I'm not offering any build, I'm not interested in epic games. You find a way to get the abilities you need, or you don't. It's really up to the reader at some point, but it's feasible.

[Uncle Pine]

I believe this does not work by RAW because Sanctum Spell changes the effective level of the spell, but its level remains the same.

That isn't how it works: metamagic feats normally increase the spell slot required to prepare and/or cast a spell, but don't actually raise the effective level of it (this means that DCs are unaffected by them). Since in these cases the spell slot used is higher than their effective level, Arcane Fusion specifies that you need to use the modified level.

Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.

That's how metamagic normally works, but then there's Heighten Spell:

Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

In this case, the spell slot used to cast the spell is equal to its level instead of being greater: Ray of Frost heightened to 1st level can be cast through Arcane Fusion along with Black Tentacles, but a Ray of Frost heightened to 2nd level cannot. This is because in the second case, the adjusted level of the spell (which is equal to the effective spell level) is greater than 1st.
Just like Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell changes the effective level of a spell - with the caveats that it does so at the moment of casting and it can adjust it by +1 or -1. In this case, the adjusted level of a sanctum Arcane Fusion cast outside a sanctum is 4th, which is equal to its effective level (also 4th), which is one level lower than the spell slot used to cast it (which is 5th).

[Anthrowhale]

Using Residual Magic for nova purposes is nice---I hadn't quite realized the potential of lingering metamagic to be multiply applied in the second round.

The biggest issue with this build is that you have to wait a combat round for it to come online. In high level combat it's generally assumed that you lose if you lose initiative, and certainly if you don't act in the first round. Have you considered starting out with a Maximized Time Stop and then initiating the Heightened Silent Image in the last round of apparent time?

A second issue with this build is that it requires to many prestige class levels. You can significantly reduce the number of required levels by picking up Invisible Spell and Cooperative Spell instead to drop the metamagic cost of Arcane Thesis spells via alternative means.

A third issue is that you burn up to many spell slots to fast. Getting Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion] could help substantially.

A fourth issue is that the Astral Plane is Timeless w.r.t. Age, Thirst, Hunger, Poison, and Natural Healing, but not w.r.t. Magic. Needing fewer spell slots will help here.

A fifth issue is: what do you do with your heightened silent images? The traditional solution is to get Arcane Disciple[Luck] so you can Shadow Illusion[Miracle] unlocking most possibilities.

[Pippin]

That isn't how it works: metamagic feats normally increase the spell slot required to prepare and/or cast a spell, but don't actually raise the effective level of it (this means that DCs are unaffected by them). Since in these cases the spell slot used is higher than their effective level, Arcane Fusion specifies that you need to use the modified level.

In this case, the spell slot used to cast the spell is equal to its level instead of being greater: Ray of Frost heightened to 1st level can be cast through Arcane Fusion along with Black Tentacles, but a Ray of Frost heightened to 2nd level cannot. This is because in the second case, the adjusted level of the spell (which is equal to the effective spell level) is greater than 1st.
Just like Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell changes the effective level of a spell - with the caveats that it does so at the moment of casting and it can adjust it by +1 or -1. In this case, the adjusted level of a sanctum Arcane Fusion cast outside a sanctum is 4th, which is equal to its effective level (also 4th), which is one level lower than the spell slot used to cast it (which is 5th).

Well I'm not that familiar with Sanctum Spell, but it was my belief that this reading was quite liberal and not the general consensus. Understand that I try to give the DM as little leverage as possible, and Sanctum Spell might not help in this regard.

A second issue with this build is that it requires to many prestige class levels.

Again I'm not submitting any build, I'd rather find a way to get the abilities I need.

You can significantly reduce the number of required levels by picking up Invisible Spell and Cooperative Spell instead to drop the metamagic cost of Arcane Thesis spells via alternative means.

The problem with +0 metamagic feats is, some DMs might not let you convert them into -1 level adjustment with Arcane Thesis. This is why I tried to stay away from all that, and stick to the abilities I mentioned at the beginning.

A third issue is that you burn up to many spell slots to fast.

Agreed, I wrote all this without really looking at the tables. I realize now that a very high Charisma score would be required. But then... Where there is a will, there's a way

Getting Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion] could help substantially.

How would it help?

A fourth issue is that the Astral Plane is Timeless w.r.t. Age, Thirst, Hunger, Poison, and Natural Healing, but not w.r.t. Magic. Needing fewer spell slots will help here.

Fair enough, just Plane Shift to a more appropriate place, or use the Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect supernatural ability.

A fifth issue is: what do you do with your heightened silent images? The traditional solution is to get Arcane Disciple[Luck] so you can Shadow Illusion[Miracle] unlocking most possibilities.

I would not want to start a world war but I have never read any convincing evidence that this might be possible. Miracle is not a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell, and Arcane Disciple will never change that. Again, I try to give the DM as little leverage as possible. Plus, Shadowcraft Mages don't need Miracle to be absolutely overpowered. Here's a few spells that might be problematic, if cast more than a thousand times in very little time:

• Bigby’s Crushing Hand
• Iceberg
• Prismatic Deluge
• Sphere of Ultimate Destruction
• Summon Monster IX

[noob]

Time stop does not have a duration but instead a number of virtual turns you act for.
so since the actual duration is not indicated it could be easily be considered as having a duration of instantaneous or that the duration have no relation with the virtual duration thus making the astral plane trick pointless.
However you can probably find a way to cast enough time stops to rest and recover your spell slots or just go to the far realms(or create a planar bubble of far realms) or whatever you like to do.

[Rebel7284]

Lingering Metamagic: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level.

There is also something to be said about Residual Magic only applying to ONE spell on the next round. I could see a DM rule it either way.

Also, if you want to abuse Residual Magic, may I suggest Echoing Spell? I have been considering writing a post about that interaction, especially with Shadowcraft Mage. :)

[noob]

Wait

Lingering Metamagic: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level.

Do not that mean that you can with casting a spell with the repeat spell metamagic once have a spell cast itself over and over for free?
It is even the same spell in fact we could argue it is the only valid application of the feat because otherwise it is not really the same spell.

[AvatarVecna]

The last thing I wanted when I submitted this was to upset other people, or to be accused of cheating, or both.

Again I'm not offering any build, I'm not interested in epic games. You find a way to get the abilities you need, or you don't. It's really up to the reader at some point, but it's feasible.

I'm not accusing you of cheating - indeed, what you're attempting to do is legal, it's just a question of when, and how hard you need to cheese. My post is more just pointing out that what you're trying to do is either something you can only do a good way into epic, or that you can only do cheesing out feature-stealing abilities...and this achievement is not particularly impressive by either the standards of epic casters or illithid savants.

Like yeah, it's a cool legal thing, but the ways to pull it off require a set-up where you can do literally anything anyway, so if the "anything" you choose to do is this, you're still limiting yourself as far as how ridiculous an effect you can pull off. What you've done is impressive by the standards of non-epic casters who don't have "every ability", but the only away to achieve this is to break either or both of those limitations, at which point it's now operating on a scale where it's just not very impressive compared to what you could do.

[Pippin]

I'm not sure I see how much worse I could do with the same level of optimisation though. I'm not using Manipulate Form here. Although Illithid Savants are known to steal whatever ability they want, I wasn't thinking about using them either.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not sure I see how much worse I could do with the same level of optimisation though. I'm not using Manipulate Form here. Although Illithid Savants are known to steal whatever ability they want, I wasn't thinking about using them either.

"The same level of optimization" is a meaningless qualifier. Anything that takes more resources than you put in to accomplish the same thing is clearly less optimal, while anything that takes the same amount of resources to accomplish something better is more optimal. Neither is at "the same level of optimization". Optimization is an observation of the overall process, not of the relative cheesiness of the bits and pieces that went into it, when the only truly measurable parts are the resources put in, the resulting capabilities, and the limits imposed. Is metamagic reduction abuse and ScM cheesier than feat loops, or vice versa? How do those two compare to genie-Wishing for arbitrarily powerful items, or Hivemind abuse, or feature-sniping illithids, or epic magic? Depends on how far you take them.

Anything after 21st level is competing with epic magic...and, because that's just how epic magic rolls, losing to epic magic. But even if we don't go with epic magic, you could just do Human with two flaws, Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/ScM 3/Red Wizard 5, and that leaves you with two feats at lvl 24 beyond what's needed for prereqs and the trick you've set up (which I'd use on Improved Metamagic and Improved Heighten Spell). The exact same thing, but at lvl 24 instead of lvl 28 the way you pull it off, with lvl 11 Silent Images instead of lvl 10 (and the option of maximized empowered lvl 21 Silent Images via Circle Magic). But none of that even matters if I decide to use Delay Spell, Planar Bubble, and Time Stop to put out NI Silent Images per round instead.

[Menzath]

I had a similar idea, with a completely different route taken.
The build was more of a selfsplosion, it did have considerable prep work needed as well.

But it capitalized on body outside body, that clones could still use standard use magic items, just not wands/staffs/scrolls.
The clones used items to give the caster celerity and heals as well as stun immunity, the caster cast more body outside body from a staff, with an item creation trick he could single action make another staff, or just about any other magic item.

In one round he could fill the multiverse with himself. Like I said though, lots of planning.

And then he needed a trick to Rez himself in 17ish rounds, since most of the clones would be on elemental planes with no immunity, or in a vacuum, or some other deadly locale.

[The Kool]

Wait

Do not that mean that you can with casting a spell with the repeat spell metamagic once have a spell cast itself over and over for free?
It is even the same spell in fact we could argue it is the only valid application of the feat because otherwise it is not really the same spell.

Lingering Metamagic: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level. The second spell doesn't count as being affected by a metamagic feat for the purpose of this benefit (that is, it doesn't entitle you to apply the metamagic feat to a spell you might cast in the following round).

As you can see by the bolded portion, if you cast a Repeating spell and this takes effect, the first repeat would also gain the Repeating effect, leading to one additional casting, but the lingering metamagic would not apply from there out. However.

A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your turn in the following round.

Note the two key phrases: "... spell is automatically cast ..." and "If you cast a spell ..." These two phrases lead me to believe that the repeated spell is just nebulously automatically cast, not specifically cast by you, and therefore doesn't qualify for lingering metamagic.

Also, last time I build an Arcane Fusion Reactor, it output Fell Drain Magic Missiles.

[Pippin]

You apply Residual Magic as you cast the Twinned, Repeated spell for the first time. When the spell is cast again next round, it is heightened already. I never applied Residual Magic at that time.

[Anthrowhale]

Well I'm not that familiar with Sanctum Spell, but it was my belief that this reading was quite liberal and not the general consensus. Understand that I try to give the DM as little leverage as possible, and Sanctum Spell might not help in this regard.

Personally, I agree with Pippin's interpretation here. Arcane Fusion depends on the spell slot level which Sanctum does not adjust.

The problem with +0 metamagic feats is, some DMs might not let you convert them into -1 level adjustment with Arcane Thesis. This is why I tried to stay away from all that, and stick to the abilities I mentioned at the beginning.

On one hand, I'm sympathetic as the interaction of +0 metamagic and Arcane Thesis is ripe for abuse. On the other hand, the rules are quite clear here, with no wiggle room.

How would it help?

Twin Repeat Greater Arcane Fusion [Twin Repeat Arcane Fusion[Twin Repeat Celerity, Twin Repeat (heightened) Silent Image], Twin Repeat Celerity] gives 64 castings of Silent Image and 80 castings of Celerity over 3 rounds from a single slot.

I would not want to start a world war but I have never read any convincing evidence that this might be possible. Miracle is not a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell, and Arcane Disciple will never change that. Again, I try to give the DM as little leverage as possible.

The rules expressly say that they put domain spells on the sorcerer list (for the sorcerer who takes arcane disciple only of course).

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells.

I have no doubt that there are many other potential spells, but Miracle really stands out.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Just one question. Why silent image of all spells?

[Rebel7284]

Just one question. Why silent image of all spells?

Shadowcraft Mage can convert Silent Image to any Conjuration[Creation], Conjuration[Summoning] or Evocation spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list at one level lower than the level of the Silent Image, essentially treating it like Shadow Evocation and co.

[Pippin]

All in all, I agree that any Psion able to pull off the Mad Minute trick is infinitely superior to the Nuclear Mage above, I just thought this was worth sharing / funny enough.

[Vizzerdrix]

I think I know a class that may make this easier. Metaphysical Spellshaper from BoEF is 3 levels long and can knock metamagic costs down like the incanatrix.

[The Kool]

Don't do it! Don't go down the rabbit hole!

[Pippin]

In case anybody was curious, I updated the OP to see how things would evolve with Greater Arcane Fusion in the loop. The number of spell slots is still a problem. Maybe things would get easier if spell slots were converted into spell points. Anyways, with Arcane Fusion alone, 1 spell point is worth 2.85 Silent Images. With both Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion, 1 spell point is worth 3.41 Silent Images.

[Segev]

What's the purpose of having so many silent images?

And, more importantly, how are you maintaining concentration on all of them when casting any spells breaks them?

[Pippin]

What's the purpose of having so many silent images?

And, more importantly, how are you maintaining concentration on all of them when casting any spells breaks them?

Shadowcraft Mage. The duration becomes that of Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation.

I've been looking for ways to make Arcane Fusion a 4th-level spell, because that way you could cast an infinite amount of Silent Images. The only thing I found that could be relevant was a PrC from Dragonlance that enables you to decrease the spell level by one if you halve the duration, the range or the size of the spell. Sadly for us, Arcane Fusion is Duration: Instantaneous, Range: Personal and has no numeric effect to halve at all.

[Segev]

Shadowcraft Mage. The duration becomes that of Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation.

I've been looking for ways to make Arcane Fusion a 4th-level spell, because that way you could cast an infinite amount of Silent Images. The only thing I found that could be relevant was a PrC from Dragonlance that enables you to decrease the spell level by one if you halve the duration, the range or the size of the spell. Sadly for us, Arcane Fusion is Duration: Instantaneous, Range: Personal and has no numeric effect to halve at all.

Assuming (as I forget) arcane fusion is natively 5th level, making it a Sanctum Spell would cause it to count as 4th level when cast outside the designated Sanctum. But that also makes it take a full-round action to cast for modifying it with a metamagic feat, unless that Arcane Mantle thing fixes that.