Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

[hroþila]

I do not accept this false dichotomy. There's plenty of room for inbetween, and any DM/Worldbuilder can shade it in one direction or the other. Plus, what SlashDash said.

Sure, there can be exceptions, but this was never presented as an anomaly. Everything in the comic would lead me to think that stable families and caring for relatives are absolutely standard black dragon behaviour. Thus, I don't think it was a moral choice, or to the contrary, that dragons not living as a family would necessarily have any bearing on their morality if that was how they were biologically wired.

[Fyraltari]

It's either stable family and protective instincts toward the offspring or making a bajillion babies and hoping two of them make it as far as natural selection is concerned anyway.

Oh and the cuckoos have their trick as well.

[Peelee]

It's either stable family and protective instincts toward the offspring or making a bajillion babies and hoping two of them make it as far as natural selection is concerned anyway.

Oh and the cuckoos have their trick as well.

r/K selection theory is what that's called, if anyone's interested. Reminds me of a presentation that E. O. Wilson gave that I got to see. Yeah, I can pathetically name-drop the father of biodiversity, what up.

[understatement]

Even Evil Has Loved Ones

If goblins and kobolds have been demonstrated loving their family, there's no reason ABD is excluded.

Also, it's her child.

[Kantaki]

I'm surprised someone who is familiar with Forgotten Realms would ask that question.

I mean come on man, all drow are evil but you still have Drizzt, right?

Characters do not behave like their stereotypes all the times. You have exceptions for everything.

And seriously, a very common motif in OotS is that monsters have feelings too.

Isn't Drizzt just a normal elf who got dunked into a ink pot*?

Seriously though, that's the kind of question I would expect from Miko**.
Walking the path of Miko Myazaki you shall not, young paladin.
Only to Fall and an undignified end it leads.

*Struwwelpeter reference.
Great book you want to traumatize your kids.

**Actually no, she wouldn't.
In fact she would smite us all for even contemplating the idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, there can be exceptions, but this was never presented as an anomaly. Everything in the comic would lead me to think that stable families and caring for relatives are absolutely standard black dragon behaviour. Thus, I don't think it was a moral choice, or to the contrary, that dragons not living as a family would necessarily have any bearing on their morality if that was how they were biologically wired.

And black dragons can also have dysfunctional families, like Roy's, Like Elan's, Like Haley's ...

[Peelee]

*Struwwelpeter reference.
Great book you want to traumatize your kids.

I very vaguely remember that from way back when. Dunno if my mom read it to me or if we just had it and I read through it myself, but that's definitely an... interesting collection. She now laughs at how ridiculously terrible that book is for kids.

[Kantaki]

I very vaguely remember that from way back when. Dunno if my mom read it to me or if we just had it and I read through it myself, but that's definitely an... interesting collection. She now laughs at how ridiculously terrible that book is for kids.

The message of those stories is just wonderful, isn't it?
„Dear children, don't act like children or you'll be killed and/or maimed horribly.”
Lessons every kid should learn.

[Peelee]

The message of those stories is just wonderful, isn't it?
„Dear children, don't act like children or you'll be killed and/or maimed horribly.”

Now now, IIRC at least one of the kids didn't really have anything bad happen to him, his parents were just angry. Because in a book about the consequences of one's actions, the consequences should absolutely be arbitrary and wildly all over the place!

[paladinofshojo]

I'm surprised someone who is familiar with Forgotten Realms would ask that question.

I mean come on man, all drow are evil but you still have Drizzt, right?

Characters do not behave like their stereotypes all the times. You have exceptions for everything.

And seriously, a very common motif in OotS is that monsters have feelings too.

To be fair, Drizzt was clearly intended to be an exception to the rule, as his race was still a bunch of unrepentant, genocidal, demon worshipping monsters.

However while the ABD seems to be an exception, she did have some typical D&D black dragon characteristics, such as being a bit “unsure” about her son seeing that green dragon girl when she was away.

Which is a throwaway gag to how chromatic dragons are territorial against one another.

Also, V even assumes that she was initially there for the Starmetal, meaning that there’s at least a stereotype that dragon’s are just greedy monsters.

[Peelee]

However while the ABD seems to be an exception

She doesn't seem to be an exception, because she's not in Forgotten Realms.

she did have some typical D&D black dragon characteristics, such as being a bit “unsure” about her son seeing that green dragon girl when she was away.

She was explicitly welcome to the idea about her kid being with the green dragon. She pretty much expected it.

[Kish]

Also, V even assumes that she was initially there for the Starmetal, meaning that there’s at least a stereotype that dragon’s are just greedy monsters.

Yes, congratulations, you have observed that the character who, as the entire point of the arc, committed a horrifying atrocity as a direct result of thinking exactly like you are thought exactly like you are.

[paladinofshojo]

She doesn't seem to be an exception, because she's not in Forgotten Realms.

She was explicitly welcome to the idea about her kid being with the green dragon. She pretty much expected it.

I meant exception in general to D&D inspired dragons, not to OotS dragons.Seeing as most black dragons in other D&D settings outside of FR still behave the same way in terms of child rearing, or at the very least their ecology is never stated to contradict it.

She also stated that she tried to be “open minded” about it, which to me implies there is some prejudice towards the concept of different chromatic dragons mingling together.

[Resileaf]

I meant exception in general to D&D inspired dragons, not to OotS dragons.Seeing as most black dragons in other D&D settings outside of FR still behave the same way in terms of child rearing, or at the very least their ecology is never stated to contradict it.

She also stated that she tried to be “open minded” about it, which to me implies there is some prejudice towards the concept of different chromatic dragons mingling together.

She also specifically called the green dragon 'nice', showing that she personally has no such prejudice.

[hroþila]

She also stated that she tried to be “open minded” about it, which to me implies there is some prejudice towards the concept of different chromatic dragons mingling together.

I took it as her being open minded about her son pursuing relationships or having sex at the family house. I didn't think about racism until just now. She described the green dragon as "nice", after all.

[Peelee]

I meant exception in general to D&D inspired dragons, not to OotS dragons.Seeing as most black dragons in other D&D settings outside of FR still behave the same way in terms of child rearing, or at the very least their ecology is never stated to contradict it.

Haven't read a lot of D&D inspired stuff, so I'm pretty unfamiliar with this; what stories and sources are you talking about that have black dragon child rearing practices?

I took it as her being open minded about her son pursuing relationships or having sex at the family house. I didn't think about racism until just now. She described the green dragon as "nice", after all.

Seconded.

[Morty]

However while the ABD seems to be an exception, she did have some typical D&D black dragon characteristics, such as being a bit “unsure” about her son seeing that green dragon girl when she was away.

Which is a throwaway gag to how chromatic dragons are territorial against one another.

Or a throwaway gag about a mother being nosy about who her son might or might not be dating. But I get that it doesn't support... whatever it is you're arguing for.

Besides, the ABD is hardly an exception to black dragons being evil, seeing how she was willing to subject innocent children to a fate worse than simply dying. It just doesn't in any way imply she wouldn't care about her own child's death.

[hamishspence]

Haven't read a lot of D&D inspired stuff, so I'm pretty unfamiliar with this; what stories and sources are you talking about that have black dragon child rearing practices?

This:

Yeah I was going by the SRD. I am not sure what you are taking about but when I searched it this wiki page came up. Notably it has this paragraph:

"Black dragons were not noted as good parents, relying more upon disguise and hiding to protect their eggs than upon guarding them personally. Black dragon eggs must be submerged in strong acid while growing, which helped protect the dragon as well.[citation needed] Black dragons would only protect their young so long as that responsibility didn't threaten their own life. If they had to choose between saving their own life or those of their clutch or spawn, they would most certainly choose the former; though they would assuredly seek revenge afterwards.[5]".

appears to draw from 3e's Draconomicon.

[Fyraltari]

This looks like a good place to drop this :

I'm going to save this thread and link to it the next time someone tells me that the themes I put in the comic are so simple and obvious that I shouldn't be bothering expressing them, because everyone already knows that you shouldn't kill people for being different than you.

Needless to say, I disagree with every single word of the opening post, as I would have thought was obvious from reading the actual story.

[Peelee]

This looks like a good place to drop this :

Two different links when a single button will suffice. Tsk tsk tsk.

I'm going to save this thread and link to it the next time someone tells me that the themes I put in the comic are so simple and obvious that I shouldn't be bothering expressing them, because everyone already knows that you shouldn't kill people for being different than you.

Needless to say, I disagree with every single word of the opening post, as I would have thought was obvious from reading the actual story.

Further, this thread is 1.) continuing a topic that is already under discussion elsewhere, 2.) has included mentions of real-world politics, and 3.) has included flaming. Thread locked, scrubbing and infractions forthcoming.

[Fyraltari]

Two different links when a single button will suffice. Tsk tsk tsk.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah I checked the SRD and didn't see anything about this.

Generally speaking, the SRD doesn't contain much fluff, if any at all. Nothing more to add to the actual topic.

[Peelee]

[Fyraltari]

[paladinofshojo]

I took it as her being open minded about her son pursuing relationships or having sex at the family house. I didn't think about racism until just now. She described the green dragon as "nice", after all.

Well to be fair, in D&D Lore, the territories of green and black dragons overlap, leading to a bit of fighting and disputes. But since green dragons are usually more powerful they will usually have the upper hand, however, greens will occasionally allow black dragons to remain in their forests, so long as they remain in the swamp lands.

I would assume that if inter-chromatic relations amongst black and green dragons are the same that it probably wouldn’t be a good idea to support this, hence the term “open minded” in my opinion at least.

[GrayGriffin]

To be fair, Drizzt was clearly intended to be an exception to the rule, as his race was still a bunch of unrepentant, genocidal, demon worshipping monsters.

Don't the Drizz't books end up with more and more good "exception" drow constantly showing up? I remember seeing some of my RP friends joking about that before.

[mjasghar]

1) good Drow is a feature of FR as seen by elistraee
2) I’m not entirely a fan of the normalisation of evil that Rich does - cf real life horrific people whose apologists show them being nice to their pets or own family
What she planned to do to Vs kids shows she was evil

[woweedd]

1) good Drow is a feature of FR as seen by elistraee
2) I’m not entirely a fan of the normalisation of evil that Rich does - cf real life horrific people whose apologists show them being nice to their pets or own family
What she planned to do to Vs kids shows she was evil

I have good news...It seems Rich agrees with you:

I can't think of anything more boring than a character who always wins and never gets emotionally impacted by anything.

Also, undercutting that so-called "redefinition of evil" is sort of the point. Because it's bull****. It's not a real thing. You can't be a torturing, mass-murdering rapist and then go home and turn your Evil Switch to the "off" position to spend time with your kids. It doesn't work that way. If you are the sort of person that can commit the acts that Tarquin does daily, then that will find its way into every aspect of your existence. It's who you are. This idea that Tarquin was this perfectly rational actor despite being a complete monster at his Day Job is a pipe dream. Tarquin wants you (and Elan) to think that what he does is separate from who he is—that he's a fundamentally decent man who just so happens to murder a bunch of people here and there—because that's how he tricks you into slowly accepting his blatant Evil as a valid life choice that needs to be respected. Which it is not.

Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.

[Fyraltari]

1) good Drow is a feature of FR as seen by elistraee
2) I’m not entirely a fan of the normalisation of evil that Rich does - cf real life horrific people whose apologists show them being nice to their pets or own family
What she planned to do to Vs kids shows she was evil

It's a false dichotomy to think people willing to do terrible hurt to people are incapable of coaring about other people. This is the kind of black and white reasoning that leads to the worst crimes.

[Lacuna Caster]

1) good Drow is a feature of FR as seen by elistraee
2) I’m not entirely a fan of the normalisation of evil that Rich does - cf real life horrific people whose apologists show them being nice to their pets or own family
What she planned to do to Vs kids shows she was evil

I have good news...It seems Rich agrees with you:

It's a false dichotomy to think people willing to do terrible hurt to people are incapable of caring about other people. This is the kind of black and white reasoning that leads to the worst crimes.

Well, hang on a second. If apologists for real-life horrific people can nonetheless point to documented instances of them being nice to pets or family members, then this actually contradicts Rich's assertion that you can't "go home and turn your Evil Switch to the off position". Now, I don't know if this assertion "leads to the worst crimes", but it does seem to be the intended point of Tarquin's arc.

I happen to agree that there are certain forms of moral pathology that tend to result in both external cruelty and the incapacity to form intimate relationships (i.e, psychopathy), but psychopaths do not account for any and all forms of destructive human behaviours. (Although I will say, in this regard, I find Belkar's arc to be far more disturbing and misinformative than Tarquin's.)