Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A question that will never be answered

Spoiler: Headcannon

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Time travel

I'm heacannoning that time travel in MCU works like in Discworld: traveling in time is possible, but Time really dislikes it, and it tries to bend the changes back things to what they were supposed to be. In the MCU, that's the job of the time stone - thus The Ancient One's worry that if the Time stone is removed from the timeline and not returned, her future won't be re-merged with the Hulk's timeline, but branch out and be lost.

Under this headcannon, the Universe/Time Stone conspires to minimise the impact of Rogers staying. He probably retired, not even being an active member of SHIELD. He does have the occasional lunch with Stark Sr, but does not try to right the wrongs he knows are coming, because he knows that the chances of screwing up the timeline are at least 14 million to 1, and any ripples his presence would cause are smothered by the Time Stone.

Grey Wolf

[Zalabim]

Well, one out of three ain't bad

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Vision is most definitely dead. But Gamora isn't (as indeed you point out later in the post), and I fully expect the next GotG movie to be "the Quest for Gamora". And Loki... well, Loki now escaped with the Tesseract following the battle for New York, which means he too could be back, if the writers need him. I'm less certain about him than I am about Gomora, but the option is there.

Grey Wolf

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There's at least one alternate universe (which Loki's escape from New York could fit into, or could be a second) where Thanos travels to the future and gets erased, and in that universe, Gamora left to a different future, but Thanos can't go on to kill Loki (assuming he really did, Loki gonna Loki) and Vision and get Black Widow killed in a quest to undo a snap he can't snap.

That is, unless part of Cap's mission to put everything back in place included preventing Thanos in that timeline from traveling to their timeline, which seems unlikely considering how it turns out for Thanos, but is maybe possible if he intervenes with Nebula/WM early, for example.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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There's at least one alternate universe (which Loki's escape from New York could fit into, or could be a second) where Thanos travels to the future and gets erased, and in that universe, Gamora left to a different future, but Thanos can't go on to kill Loki (assuming he really did, Loki gonna Loki) and Vision and get Black Widow killed in a quest to undo a snap he can't snap.

That is, unless part of Cap's mission to put everything back in place included preventing Thanos in that timeline from traveling to their timeline, which seems unlikely considering how it turns out for Thanos, but is maybe possible if he intervenes with Nebula/WM early, for example.

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There are no alternate universes, since Cap put the stones back in the times where they took them from. How that works is not explained, but that's what we were told, in the conversation between the Ancient One and Hulk

Grey Wolf

[Kyberwulf]

You mean the one wear thanks isn't around to look for the stones?

[Starwulf]

I don't know if this has been asked(or answered) and if it has, I apologize:

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So they return all the soulstones at the end. Would that give them back Black Widow? If not, why would they ever return the soul stone? Makes pretty much no sense, and it would prevent anyone in the past from ever gathering all 6 stones again.

Also, speaking of all 6 stones, I was rather annoyed with them going "Oh yeah, Hulk should totally wield the gauntlet, the radiation they give off is Gamma, and he's a being that exists because of Gamma radiation", but Thor is a literal god, and withstood the full force of a star on his body and came out of it alive(albeit barely). I feel like he would have had the best chance to come out of using it rather unscathed, as compared to Hulks being horrendously burned/partially withered. That was really my only real criticism of the movie.

Oh, and one complaint related to the movie, but not about the storyline or anything:

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I was really annoyed that apparently one of the trailers leading up to the movie was a total red-herring. About a month or two ago I saw a trailer showing the remaining avengers staring down at Fury's beeper, trying to figure out where/who the signal was broadcasting to, and then it stops. They argue for a moment or two about whether or not they should get it working again, and then Black Widow(I think it was her) turns around, and there is Carol Danvers standing right behind her. That scene was not in the movie at all, which had me confused for most of the time. I kept expecting their time travel hijinks to wipe out the future entirely and basically reset their memories so that particular scene could happen, and it never does.

[Erys]

Spoiler

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There are no alternate universes, since Cap put the stones back in the times where they took them from. How that works is not explained, but that's what we were told, in the conversation between the Ancient One and Hulk

Grey Wolf

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There has to be at least one alternate universe/timeline.

Thanos dies, then years later comes to 'their' timeline to capture their borrowed stones and dies again.

Whatever timeline he left is protected against his treachery, and all its stones remain.

I don't know if this has been asked(or answered) and if it has, I apologize:

Spoiler

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So they return all the soulstones at the end. Would that give them back Black Widow? If not, why would they ever return the soul stone? Makes pretty much no sense, and it would prevent anyone in the past from ever gathering all 6 stones again.

Also, speaking of all 6 stones, I was rather annoyed with them going "Oh yeah, Hulk should totally wield the gauntlet, the radiation they give off is Gamma, and he's a being that exists because of Gamma radiation", but Thor is a literal god, and withstood the full force of a star on his body and came out of it alive(albeit barely). I feel like he would have had the best chance to come out of using it rather unscathed, as compared to Hulks being horrendously burned/partially withered. That was really my only real criticism of the movie.

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To keep "their" timeline intact, they have to return all the Infinity Stones, including the Soul Stone. Hiding a stone and preventing Thanos from waging his Infinity War would effectively cause a time paradox of sorts. The event that triggers time traveling always has to happen, otherwise the journey would never be made.

So, he has to return the Soul Stone. Though, on that thought, I hope they include his time-escapades in a directors cut. Him meeting Red Skull again could be very interesting.

On your second point, I think there was a more subtle reason why they didn't want Thor to wear the Gauntlet, Invoking all the stones is akin to a Wish in DnD- you best craft that sucker precise or else their will be unintended consequences and often sheer hell to pay. Bruce is the more qualified Wish maker, and the team knew it.

[Androgeus]

I don't know if this has been asked(or answered) and if it has, I apologize:

Spoiler

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So they return all the soulstones at the end. Would that give them back Black Widow? If not, why would they ever return the soul stone? Makes pretty much no sense, and it would prevent anyone in the past from ever gathering all 6 stones again.

Spoiler

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Cap forgot the receipt and thus couldn’t get a refund for the Soul Stone

Oh, and one complaint related to the movie, but not about the storyline or anything:

Spoiler

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I was really annoyed that apparently one of the trailers leading up to the movie was a total red-herring. About a month or two ago I saw a trailer showing the remaining avengers staring down at Fury's beeper, trying to figure out where/who the signal was broadcasting to, and then it stops. They argue for a moment or two about whether or not they should get it working again, and then Black Widow(I think it was her) turns around, and there is Carol Danvers standing right behind her. That scene was not in the movie at all, which had me confused for most of the time. I kept expecting their time travel hijinks to wipe out the future entirely and basically reset their memories so that particular scene could happen, and it never does.

Because that was Captain Marvel’s post credit scene, not a trailer.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler

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I was really annoyed that apparently one of the trailers leading up to the movie was a total red-herring. About a month or two ago I saw a trailer showing the remaining avengers staring down at Fury's beeper, trying to figure out where/who the signal was broadcasting to, and then it stops. They argue for a moment or two about whether or not they should get it working again, and then Black Widow(I think it was her) turns around, and there is Carol Danvers standing right behind her. That scene was not in the movie at all, which had me confused for most of the time. I kept expecting their time travel hijinks to wipe out the future entirely and basically reset their memories so that particular scene could happen, and it never does.

[/QUOTE]

A similar thing happen in Infinity War, where in the trailer we see Hulk as Hulk but in the movie Banner is in the Hulkbuster. These things happen, and remember the first trailers for these movies often come out 5 to 6 months prior to the movie comming out (and they are still doing editing, re-editing, special effects, etc) and the movie people have to give the seperate trailer people some time prior to that 5 to 6 months to actually make a good trailer. So even without the intention of doing "headfakes" this stuff happens.

Another thing that I remember while typing this, and I am still mad about this 8 years 11 months later, but they cut "you complete me" from Iron Man 2.



So while I am sad to see those 13 seconds go (they were used in the trailer), I am glad / not sad this other alternate start was not used for Iron Man 2 for it is full of cringe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSFjFGUZGIg

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know if this has been asked(or answered) and if it has, I apologize:

Spoiler

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So they return all the soulstones at the end. Would that give them back Black Widow? If not, why would they ever return the soul stone? Makes pretty much no sense, and it would prevent anyone in the past from ever gathering all 6 stones again.

Spoiler

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Because The Ancient One warned Hulk that not returning thestones would cause entire timelines to be spawned and die off.

And no, the Soul Stone is not Walmart. Returning it doesn-t bring the sacrifice back from the dead.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

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Also if there are no more soulstones there are no more wars over them, like Loki/Ronin/Thanos invading and destroying planets.

[Vizzerdrix]

Credits.

Spoiler: spoiler

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So no full on ending scene, but what was that hammering at the very, very end all about? Sounded like metal on metal. 3 or 4 strikes.

[Mechalich]

Credits.

Spoiler: spoiler

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So no full on ending scene, but what was that hammering at the very, very end all about? Sounded like metal on metal. 3 or 4 strikes.

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That's a replay of the sound effect of Tony Stark forging his initial suit of armor in the first Iron Man film. It's an homage/dedication/reflection on the pivotal importance of that character and that film to launch everything that led to this point.

[Rodin]

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That's a replay of the sound effect of Tony Stark forging his initial suit of armor in the first Iron Man film. It's an homage/dedication/reflection on the pivotal importance of that character and that film to launch everything that led to this point.

That's awesome, I wondered what that was all about.

Spoiler

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There are no alternate universes, since Cap put the stones back in the times where they took them from. How that works is not explained, but that's what we were told, in the conversation between the Ancient One and Hulk

Grey Wolf

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All of this rather confused me, because the initial discussion that Banner has with everybody is that Back to the Future shenanigans are right out. We're dealing with multi-verse theory, meaning that nothing they do in the past can destroy their own future. But then, how do you explain taking the Infinity stone creating an alternate timeline? And if there isn't an alternate timeline, how do you explain the MASSIVE changes they caused by stealing the Infinity Stones early and removing Thanos from the picture?

So, my take on it:

The Ancient One's argument is basically that without the Infinity Stones, her own timeline is utterly screwed. Banner would be saving half the universe in his own timeline while dooming the entire universe from her own - and he would be doing that across a number of different universes each time a stone is stolen. Without the stones being around, Dormamu eats the universe, rocks fall, everyone dies. Banner's compromise is that they return the stones to where they found them, meaning that those timelines can progress on their own without being eaten by an Elder God and their welfare is up to the locals.

This is the only way I can make the time travel make sense, because there's otherwise no way to reconcile the differences in the past. Loki escaping destroys Thor's personal timeline. Captain America revealing he knows about Hydra destroys his. Quill getting knocked unconscious means the Guardians of the Galaxy are never formed. Thanos ceases to exist and we get a paradox about why they time traveled in the first place if the Snap never happened.

The ONLY way to deal with the paradoxes is if they created a parallel universe (or more than one) where all the Infinity Stones mysteriously went missing for a few moments before being returned and then universe(s) shoot off in a different direction from the prime timeline due to all the changes.

@Ramza - I'm not going to respond to most of that because it comes down to fundamental differences in, well, ourselves. We enjoy different things, and that's fine.

I will, however, talk about what I meant with Thor Ragnarok. To me, that movie was...weird. It was basically two different movies jammed together - we had Thor 3: Death's Return, and Planet Hulk. The Thor side of things (ironically, Thor himself was not present for most of it) was treated incredibly seriously. Asgard is getting conquered, a bunch of minor characters are getting killed, the civilians are fleeing for their lives. It's all very bleak, and largely it was pretty boring. Hela is basically an anime TV movie villain - never mentioned before, shows up with a power level to smash Thor into the ground, and then gets killed off at the end never to be referenced again.

Meanwhile, there's Planet Hulk. Planet Hulk is awesome, and the comedy is absolutely suited to that portion of the movie. There's a few bits of seriousness to even out the comedy, and it works quite well as a self-contained story.

But then, there's the end of the movie. Where they collide the two together. And it just does not work. Cracking jokes over the explosion of Asgard was a big miss, and Thor having spent "his" portion of the movie entirely separated from it means there's no emotional weight to him reappearing. There's a reason why Hela is one of my bottom MCU villains along with Killian. I would overall have preferred them to split these into two movies - a Thor 3 that could be probably developed in its own right (or not and I just skip that one like Thor 2), and a Planet Hulk movie to give Hulk more than one mostly de-canonized movie to his name.

Spoiler: How this relates to Endgame

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The reason I said I didn't want a GotG or a Ragnarok is that I felt the humor would have been out of place. The original GotG worked because the overall story was very goofy and funny. GotG2, in my opinion, went over the top with it and tried too hard. But Ragnarok was the perfect example of trying to insert over-the-top humor into a very serious story, and it just did not fly. Endgame has the usual MCU comedic beats throughout, but overall it is a much more serious film than most of the franchise. I feel it benefited from that, because the tone matched the story they were trying to tell. The very funny stories have their place (I will always stand up for Ant-Man for this reason), but it was inappropriate for this film.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, even if the soul stones are destroyed. The sacrifices remain that. Sacrifices. No takeys backsy. The are gone.. forever.

[Delicious Taffy]

Is there a part in the movie where the Infinity Stones get duplicated or something? Everyone keeps referring to the Soul Stone in plurals, and I'm worried this movie is gonna be a cluster of timelines, alternate universes, and duplicated McGuffins.

[Razade]

Is there a part in the movie where the Infinity Stones get duplicated or something? Everyone keeps referring to the Soul Stone in plurals, and I'm worried this movie is gonna be a cluster of timelines, alternate universes, and duplicated McGuffins.

They used to be called the Soul Stones in the comics.

[GloatingSwine]

They used to be called the Soul Stones in the comics.

They were called the Infinity Gems in the comics. The Soul Gem was, IIRC, the first one introduced before the idea of the others though.

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But two people have been sacrificed to the Soul Stone now.

I suspect that Peter searching for "his" Gamora is going to be a major focus of GotG3. Given that we know that the new character introduced is Adam Warlock, and he's the individual most integrally connected to the Soul Gem in the comics.

[Razade]

They were called the Infinity Gems in the comics. The Soul Gem was, IIRC, the first one introduced before the idea of the others though.

No, they started being called the Infinity Gems in 1990. Prior to that, they were introduced in 1972, they were called Soul Gems.

[Thrawn4]

Watched the movie yesterday - loved it. While I enjoyed many of the other ones, this one is the only one to give me an inspirational vibe and the only one that has me thinking about it and downloading the soundtrack.
Just so good.

Just a few minor things that bucked me:

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Captain Marvel. We didn't really need her (which is fine, I didn't like her anyway) except as a breakdown service at the beginning and heavy artillery at the end, both of which could have been solved without this character. So you know, kind of a waste of time to have her anyway.
But that's not my main issue. Why did the Avengers not take her with them on the time heist instead of Warmachine? She is much stronger and has a lot of space experience. Don't tell me they couldn't have waited two weeks until she comes back or something. Really annoyed me for a while, but in the end I figured it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, the problem with Thanos only starts once blue-robot-girl malfunctions and her companion (in this case Warmachine) is already on their way home.

Also, how did evil blue-robot-girl allow Thanos to time travel? She hacks the time machine, but aren't you suppossed to have the time travel particles in order to do so? Everybody had just enough to come back once, and she had already used hers...

But as I said, great movie anyway!

[Zalabim]

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Also, how did evil blue-robot-girl allow Thanos to time travel? She hacks the time machine, but aren't you suppossed to have the time travel particles in order to do so? Everybody had just enough to come back once, and she had already used hers...

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She took current Nebula's pym particles too, and from there my canon is that Thanos's science reverse engineers how to make more pym particles following up on Hank Pym's fear of them being duplicated and Rocket's comment (to someone), "You're only a genius on Earth." He technically has a large amount of time to get them right before past Nebula has to be sent to the future.

[Saintheart]

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She took current Nebula's pym particles too, and from there my canon is that Thanos's science reverse engineers how to make more pym particles following up on Hank Pym's fear of them being duplicated and Rocket's comment (to someone), "You're only a genius on Earth." He technically has a large amount of time to get them right before past Nebula has to be sent to the future.

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Problem being: if that's what happened then that assures Thanos wins, because if he gets enough Pym particles to bring his entire army through to the future, he certainly has enough to send his agents around the timestream Terminator style to assure his victory.

Only way to get around that problem is then Steve using the Infinity Stones to block every single one of those attempts or something. Maybe that explains what the Sorcerer Supreme does on her off days.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm back from seeing Avengers: Endgame and this is my review on the movie:

Spoiler: My Review On Avengers: Endgame

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This movie was way better than Infinity War. I'm so glad the writers didn't butcher the entire movie especially the ending. It's about the remaining Avengers from present and past trying to go back in time to get all the Infinity Stones from Thanos. This movie got everything, action, comedy, drama. The battle was very epic. All the superheroes join forces to battle Thanos and his army. I even cry during the movie because there was a sad part in the movie where Tony Stark (aka Iron Man) sacrifice himself after he used The Infinity Gauntlet Iron Man Suit after he snapped his fingers. This movie deserved to get nominated and win for Best Pictures in the Oscars next year. This movie is Oscar-worthy. I don't care what everyone else said. I'll give it a perfect 5 out of 5 stars.

[Dienekes]

Well that was fun.

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As a Cap America fanboy, I was happy with this movie. The scene of him taking on Thanos alone was great. And him lifting Mjolnir means the MCU has now done their take on two of my three favorite Marvel Comics moments, thankfully, they pulled this off much better than the death of Skurge. Now we just need to see Kraven commit suicide and we can go three for three.

In any case, this was a messy movie, where I don't think everything landed as tightly as it could have been. But I still enjoyed it immensely.

[Talakeal]

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Also, speaking of all 6 stones, I was rather annoyed with them going "Oh yeah, Hulk should totally wield the gauntlet, the radiation they give off is Gamma, and he's a being that exists because of Gamma radiation", but Thor is a literal god, and withstood the full force of a star on his body and came out of it alive(albeit barely). I feel like he would have had the best chance to come out of using it rather unscathed, as compared to Hulks being horrendously burned/partially withered. That was really my only real criticism of the movie.

I would agree with you, but I don't think Thor was in the right state of mind. It looks like it requires a great deal of concentration / mental clarity.

Also, while the movie didn't go into this as much as the original comics, there is also a lot of temptation wrapped up in omnipotence too. The infinity gauntlet is kind of like The One Ring on steroids in that regard, even if it is lacking the active malevolence.

[Tvtyrant]

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Problem being: if that's what happened then that assures Thanos wins, because if he gets enough Pym particles to bring his entire army through to the future, he certainly has enough to send his agents around the timestream Terminator style to assure his victory.

Only way to get around that problem is then Steve using the Infinity Stones to block every single one of those attempts or something. Maybe that explains what the Sorcerer Supreme does on her off days.

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If Hydra had pym particles yes. But Thanos thinks of himself as a force of nature, as inevitable as entropy. More so as the stones can beat entropy and Thanos thinks he cannot be defeated.

Why would someone that arrogant need backup plans? All he needs is to do is show up and he will win in his mind.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Time Stone

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So anyone want to explain to me what the Time Stone can do with its own time travel powers, and how this is the same yet different than Quantum Realm Time Travel?

[Lethologica]

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Problem being: if that's what happened then that assures Thanos wins, because if he gets enough Pym particles to bring his entire army through to the future, he certainly has enough to send his agents around the timestream Terminator style to assure his victory.

Only way to get around that problem is then Steve using the Infinity Stones to block every single one of those attempts or something. Maybe that explains what the Sorcerer Supreme does on her off days.

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I was kinda expecting Thanos or proxies to show up at all of the places in the time stream where the Avengers went to collect the Stones, because he knows the Stones are there and then.

On the other hand, he also knows the Stones are in 2023, all in one place. Might as well just go there. And he has someone on the other end to tell him exactly when to show up.

[Aedilred]

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I would agree with you, but I don't think Thor was in the right state of mind. It looks like it requires a great deal of concentration / mental clarity.

Also, while the movie didn't go into this as much as the original comics, there is also a lot of temptation wrapped up in omnipotence too. The infinity gauntlet is kind of like The One Ring on steroids in that regard, even if it is lacking the active malevolence.

Spoilering this but I agree:

Spoiler: Hulk vs Thor

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It's pretty clear that Thor isn't at his fighting weight, either emotionally or physically. He blew his part of the stone-retrieving mission because he couldn't get a handle on himself even before his mum showed up. He's a total wreck who can barely control himself even before he gets his hands on the ultimate power glove. Give him the Gauntlet and who knows what he'll do.

But on the flipside, he's still incredibly powerful, moreso than any of the others save Carol Danvers (which is one of the plot reasons, I think, he was separated from the rest of the team for most of Age of Ultron and Infinity War and all of Civil War - even before his Ragnarok powerup). In Infinity War he nearly killed Thanos singlehanded even after Thanos had all the Stones. While on his Endgame form he's nowhere near that, once he puts on the Gauntlet I wouldn't bet on even the entirety of the rest of the team being able to take him on without Danvers, who isn't present. Combined with his emotional state, that's a massive liability, because if he does go off the deep end once he puts the gauntlet on, they can't stop him.

On that basis, almost anyone else is a much safer option for the rest of the team, and Bruce is the one most likely to survive it (leaving aside any other qualifications).

[zimmerwald1915]

So, just saw the thing, would anyone mind posting a spoilered summary of where the discourse is at, please?

[Aedilred]

So, just saw the thing, would anyone mind posting a spoilered summary of where the discourse is at, please?

There isn't a consistent ongoing thread, really, just a few individual comments and direct responses.