Sauron vs Voldemort

[Winterwind]

The phial of Galadriel *is* a terrifically potent item. They have little portions of 'Light Itself' or somesuch (the Silmarils?). I forget what it is exactly, but they're made of Nifty. In HP, a hover charm is not complicated - freshman wizards learn to basic version first year. Flying isn't as remarkable as a light that shines brightly in time of need and destiny and cleansing power and yadda yadda.

To be precise, it contains a part of the light of Earendil's star - Earendil being the father of Elrond and Elros (the first king of Numenor, direct ancestor of Aragorn), and the one who brought the Valar into the fight against Morgoth, thus saving the human and elven race and driving Sauron's lord forever out of this world. He, the Silmaril he bore and his ship later ascended to the sky and became a star.
So yeah. It is a powerful item indeed.

If HP magic doesn't function so well as you approach Mount Doom, then Voldemort definitely cannot just walk to Mount Doom. (See also the earlier "One does not simply ROCK into Mordor".) Glad someone else likes Voldemort's odds, Dave, but you might be overstating the odds of a magic-less wizard in Mordor. There are plenty of orcs between him and Sauron which can cause a problem if he's powerless. Stupid antimagic fields.

One should add that Frodo only had a chance to reach Mount Doom because Sauron stripped his land of most orcs who ordinarily lived there due to the war with Gondor. Usually there would have been much more of them.


As for what happens when somebody not being Sauron uses the Ring, Gandalf explains that during Elrond's Council: It will not do much to somebody who doesn't already have power of his own, but such a person might be able to use the Ring to overthrow the Dark Lord, albeit at the cost of becoming like him in the process.
It is nowhere said that the person has to have Maiar-level powers, and in fact, Gandalf is most definitely weaker than Sauron - as Olorin he is not exactly a very powerful Maia, whereas Sauron is, not to mention Gandalf is weakened by his mortal form.
So to use the Ring to defeat Sauron one doesn't have to be as strong as he is originally, most definitely not.
However, one has to have some sort of power, that's true. Voldemort does have power, but it's not sure whether it's enough. Of course, he would be corrupted instantly, but being corrupted by the Ring does not equal becoming Sauron's slave. He surely wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring though.

[WalkingTarget]

However, one has to have some sort of power, that's true. Voldemort does have power, but it's not sure whether it's enough. Of course, he would be corrupted instantly, but being corrupted by the Ring does not equal becoming Sauron's slave. He surely wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring though.

Hmm... Something just occurred to me. Let's accept for the sake of argument that all of the Voldemort-successfully-uses-the-ring theories are valid. V takes the ring, is able to wield its power effectively, but does not fall under Sauron's control (which I never saw as likely anyway). V becomes a new(er?) Dark Lord etc, and Sauron is relegated to the minor leagues for now. Since I still think it's valid that Voldemort would not be able to destroy the ring, Sauron would still be hanging around in diminished capacity. Now the scenario is somewhat reversed in that Sauron is the underdog that has to find the horcruxes and destroy them, but he isn't hampered in this by an inability to willfully destroy them once they're found (and here I'm making assumptions on how they work as I'm only about halfway through HPatPoA currently). If we're going to allow time spent by V to become aware of/find/learn to use the ring we'd have to give Sauron the same chance.

We're talking about 2 very-nearly-immortal Dark Lords here. I think that plotting in the long view is perfectly acceptable as strategies for either party. This ceases to be a who is strictly more inherently powerful and becomes whose victory condition is less impossible to meet (I guess Harry could bite off V's finger and jump into the crack of doom and save us a lot of trouble).

[LordVader]

I'll say this again. What does Voldemort do if Sauron is wearing the Ring?

[Winterwind]

I'll say this again. What does Voldemort do if Sauron is wearing the Ring?

Whatever Sauron wants him to, I'd say.

[Ditto]

Agreed. Still not clear on what all Sauron's powers are once he has the Ring, but suffice it to say Voldemort is pretty damn screwed at that point.

So if Voldemort beats Sauron but doesn't destroy the ring, and Sauron is a minor weak-crappy-insubstantial being... why does Voldemort care? It's not an underdog thing at that point. Sauron has no followers and no form. He's alive, but he's not a threat.

I wish people would stop saying that Voldemort's soul being torn means he has weak willpower. It's not like he's thrown a bit of soul out into the world every time he killed someone. Even if he did, when does the soul equal willpower? What does more or less soul have to do with corruption? Why does Voldemort care about his soul's relative state of very-very-corruption? And Aragorn wasn't an elf. Way back, sure, but not an elf now.

Voldemort kept the Elder Wand because it was useful. It tended to attract trouble because it was powerful and cool, but it wasn't magically problem-finding. If Voldemort decided that he absolutely could not use the Ring, then I don't see why he wouldn't want to destroy it. If powers aren't blocked in Mordor, than a quick apparition won't give the Ring even minutes to work its magic. People keep the Ring around they think they can use it to defeat Sauron. By the time Voldemort gets to Mount Doom, he's figured out that it's of absolutely no use to him.

It's not a bad reflection on Boromir, but Weak Happens. They let Sean Bean play him! Why? You're DOOMED to be a villain if Sean Bean plays you!

[Setra]

won't give the Ring even minutes to work its magic.

For Voldy, it wouldn't need even that.

Why is this thread still going?

[warty goblin]

Voldemort kept the Elder Wand because it was useful. It tended to attract trouble because it was powerful and cool, but it wasn't magically problem-finding. If Voldemort decided that he absolutely could not use the Ring, then I don't see why he wouldn't want to destroy it. If powers aren't blocked in Mordor, than a quick apparition won't give the Ring even minutes to work its magic. People keep the Ring around they think they can use it to defeat Sauron. By the time Voldemort gets to Mount Doom, he's figured out that it's of absolutely no use to him.

Once again (I promise this will be my last post on this thread) nobody can destroy the Ring on purpose, it just cannot be done. Certainly not somebody like Voldermort with his ego and pride issues, the Ring preys on lust for power and hatred etc, all of which Voldermort is succeptable to. I don't care if he has it for ten seconds or for five- it induced Smeagol to kill in about that amount of time, and Smeagol has far more moral fiber and resistance than Voldermort does.

Voldermort being weak-willed? When is he ever shown as having a strong will? Harry was just as suprised by the Proiri Incantatum thingy as Voldermort was, was fourteen and not an exceptional wizard, but he still won that magical battle. Throughout Book 7, Voldermort is incapable of preventing Harry from seeing into his mind. People repeatedly are able to lie to him or otherwise fool him. I see Voldermort as an exceptionally powerful wizard, with lots and lots of magical skill and power, but he just doesn't come off as being particularly good at the whole willpower thing. Put things another way- when does Voldermort ever do something that he doesn't want to, because he knows that it will be better for him in the long run? Sauron, Aragorn, Gandalf and Galadriel (all the being we know of that are capable of using the Ring effectively) all do this repeatedly.

I sincerely doubt that Sauron would kill Voldermort- he'd just disable him, then take him away to those lovely Houses of Lamentation and torment him for the rest of eternity. Its made all the more convenient because he can't permenently die. Horcruxes rendered irrellevent.

Anyway, I'm done. In conclusion I don't see what hope Voldermort has, he can't kill Sauron (or any of the important minions) can't run forever, and cannot hope to gain the kind of power needed to actually defeat Sauron. He's good at terrorist strike kinda things, but a Middle-Earth under Sauron's single control isn't going to be defeated by Fyndfiring the occasional city- and Sauron will eventually controll all of Middle-Earth in a battle between the two because there's no way that the Death Eaters can actually hold ground against armies. Voldermort's best hope is to sue for peace and get a nice comfy underling slot- maybe Sauron needs another sorcerer king somewhere?

[Ditto]

Voldemort would be corrupted in seconds. Fine. Who cares if he's corrupted? What does that mean? If you really need to, hand a box with the ring in it to a house elf and say, "Go on, jump in."

Who lied to Voldemort successfully besides Snape? Who breached Voldemort's mental defenses besides the guy with a mystical link inside his head? Doesn't devoting his entire life to research of the ancient arcane and tireless pursuit of power and immortality speak of work ethic?

He's not Fiendfyring occasional cities, he's doing it to entire armies. And they don't have much in the way of anti-magic defenses. And Fiendfyre doesn't really need to go out.

If Sauron doesn't kill Voldemort, then he apparently doesn't win. People keep saying Voldemort doesn't win unless he kills Sauron. Make up your mind, team...

[WalkingTarget]

So if Voldemort beats Sauron but doesn't destroy the ring, and Sauron is a minor weak-crappy-insubstantial being... why does Voldemort care? It's not an underdog thing at that point. Sauron has no followers and no form. He's alive, but he's not a threat.

He was defeated at the end of the 2nd age and got to where he was at the time of LotR again without access to the ring. Last alliance kicked his ass, "killed" his body, and didn't destroy the ring. It took him a long time to recover, but he did and was still a terrifying enemy.

Not having the ring != minor-weak-crappy-insubstantial Sauron.

My point in this particular scenario was:

To win, Voldemort would have to destroy the ring. He might be able to "defeat" Sauron by using the ring against him, but in terms of immortal beings, a few thousand years of recovery time is a minor setback. Call it the power of plot if you wish, but nobody has been shown to have the strength of will to actually destroy it and for somebody as far gone as Voldemort, the seduction of the ring would probably be too great anyway.

On the other hand (from what I gather on the boards), Sauron has to destroy Voldemort's 6 soul thingies. Nobody has mentioned any particular difficulty in this other than difficulty in finding them and/or getting past whatever defenses have been put up. Since Sauron has essentially forever to do so (since Voldemort would probably be doing a bang-up job protecting the ring from any annoying hobbits), the win would eventually go to Sauron.

It might take an extremely long time, but immortal evil overlords who have shown an ability to use long term strategies are allowed to do so.

This will probably then come down to "Voldemort would just destroy the ring then" which is not something that any of us could say for a certainty. We'd have to petition J.K. Rowling (and possibly a medium in contact with Tolkien) for an answer to that if none of the already-given reasons are enough to convince one either way.

[Indon]

I don't get the impression that the Ring bends one to Sauron's will specifically; more that the Ring bends one to the Ring's will, and that the Ring's will is evil, pure and simple.

If Voldemort gets ahold of the ring, whose ability is that it amplifies power and makes the bearer more evil and Sauron-like (but not neccessarily _serving_ Sauron) I imagine he could handily dispatch Sauron. Of course, the Ring is not destroyed, and as it implants itself into Voldemort he essentially becomes Sauron v.2.0 (3.0?), who now in addition to all of his Dark Lord powers, is now possessed of all of Voldemort's powers and memories as well, a kind of "Saurdemort".

Evil is the only victor in such a scenario, and without a doubt the world would be cast into darkness once and for all.

[Executor]

Ditto: Scattering won't work on Nazgul. The effects of ONE Nazgul would drive Death Eaters to madness. Let alone all Nine, Witch-King included. That would break the mind of those wizards. And if they didn't, Sauron could just take a peeksies into their minds and shatter them permanently. Oh sure, Voldemort can read minds. Sauron BREAKS minds like fragile china.

And, ummm, when did you observe this so called Mumakil-Duck spell? Anyways, since Trolls and such seem to be magic-resistant, one would assume Mumakil are also.

The Nazgul don't need to 'Expelliarmus' the Death Eaters. They just have to fly around and let the fact that they are LIVING INCARNATIONS OF FEAR do it's job.

Fiendfyre is the only real weapon the Death Eaters seem to have against Sauron's Orcish hordes. Well you can only yell out an incarnation so many times in a battle before you're turned into a human pin-cushion. Orcs may not be Elves any more, but they're still good shots.

[Winterwind]

More of a side note, but something I have been wondering about since the movies - was it stated anywhere in the books that mumakils were this huge? I had always assumed from the books that these were actually absolutely ordinary elephants, and the supremely impressive description was merely an effect of being made from the perspective of people who had not seen elephants ever before in their lives (and were additionally quite often hobbits).

[Executor]

Well I know Tolkien wrote that the Mumakil went extinct but had "kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty" That implies, to me at least, that the Mumakil is much larger than the modern elephant. Sam also described Mumaks as a moving hill. So I think they are bigger than elephants by far.

[Winterwind]

Ah, okay then. Didn't remember this specific remark on Tolkien's part. Thanks.

[Ditto]

...now the elephants have magic resistance? Seriously? There's no reason for 99% of the creatures in Sauron's army to have any remarkable magic resistance. And if they *really* do have something (like the Nazgul don't...), then you can always fall back on the giant-fire-being eating you or stabbing you with a giant tree or having a giant animated tree stab you... magic has many options beyond hexing. See? They *still* wouldn't use hexes for most things - yes, even when I say it for a twentieth time.

The Nazgul have not been shown to drive people to madness individually or quickly or... at all. Fetal position, yeah, that's happened. But not madness, and Sauron doesn't mindcrush at range willy-nilly. And wizards can practice mental defense, too. (Yes, Sauron's mind is more powerful. But I'm thinking most Men don't have access to a branch of magic designed to protect one's mind from outside intrusion.)

You only have to yell "Fiendfyre!" once, then retire to a safe distance and sip lemonade. It's not the only weapon, but it's the biggest one, and it's not even expensive to create! Oh, I lied - you don't have to yell "Fiendfyre" at all. It's non-verbal.

The people who defeated Sauron before were not using the Ring to do so. If Sauron was defeated elsewise, then I'm sure he'd make a very impressive comeback a few thousand years from now. Horcruxes are indeed *relatively* easier to destroy, after you get past the magical defenses. And find them. Without the breadth and depth of magic of a Voldemort-level wizard. But when the Ring (that is, the incarnation of the majority of his power) is being used to banish and/or contain him, methinks Sauron ceases to be a threat, forever. If the Ring says, "Hey! You! Stay in your box!", then Sauron will have to oblige.

[Winterwind]

The people who defeated Sauron before were not using the Ring to do so. If Sauron was defeated elsewise, then I'm sure he'd make a very impressive comeback a few thousand years from now. Horcruxes are indeed *relatively* easier to destroy, after you get past the magical defenses. And find them. Without the breadth and depth of magic of a Voldemort-level wizard. But when the Ring (that is, the incarnation of the majority of his power) is being used to banish and/or contain him, methinks Sauron ceases to be a threat, forever. If the Ring says, "Hey! You! Stay in your box!", then Sauron will have to oblige.

I can't cite any part of the LotR books regarding that, but that's the impression I got as well from all these remarks about how they could destroy Sauron using the Ring, but must not.

[Eita]

But when the Ring (that is, the incarnation of the majority of his power) is being used to banish and/or contain him, methinks Sauron ceases to be a threat, forever. If the Ring says, "Hey! You! Stay in your box!", then Sauron will have to oblige.

The Ring is Sauron. Sauron is the Ring. They are forever intertwined. To kill one is to kill both. To achieve their full power, they need each other.

[Ditto]

...right. You can't completely get rid of Sauron without the Ring. If Sauron has the Ring, he wins. But if someone uses the Ring to defeat Sauron, then I'm thinking Sauron is completely defeated. "Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect 200 Galleons, Do Not Recorporealize And Lead Orcish Forces" defeated

[LordVader]

...now the elephants have magic resistance? Seriously? There's no reason for 99% of the creatures in Sauron's army to have any remarkable magic resistance. And if they *really* do have something (like the Nazgul don't...), then you can always fall back on the giant-fire-being eating you or stabbing you with a giant tree or having a giant animated tree stab you... magic has many options beyond hexing. See? They *still* wouldn't use hexes for most things - yes, even when I say it for a twentieth time.

The Nazgul have not been shown to drive people to madness individually or quickly or... at all. Fetal position, yeah, that's happened. But not madness, and Sauron doesn't mindcrush at range willy-nilly. And wizards can practice mental defense, too. (Yes, Sauron's mind is more powerful. But I'm thinking most Men don't have access to a branch of magic designed to protect one's mind from outside intrusion.)

You only have to yell "Fiendfyre!" once, then retire to a safe distance and sip lemonade. It's not the only weapon, but it's the biggest one, and it's not even expensive to create! Oh, I lied - you don't have to yell "Fiendfyre" at all. It's non-verbal.
The people who defeated Sauron before were not using the Ring to do so. If Sauron was defeated elsewise, then I'm sure he'd make a very impressive comeback a few thousand years from now. Horcruxes are indeed *relatively* easier to destroy, after you get past the magical defenses. And find them. Without the breadth and depth of magic of a Voldemort-level wizard. But when the Ring (that is, the incarnation of the majority of his power) is being used to banish and/or contain him, methinks Sauron ceases to be a threat, forever. If the Ring says, "Hey! You! Stay in your box!", then Sauron will have to oblige.

First of all, Fiendyre is as dangerous to the caster as the enemy, as evidenced by Crabbe. Second, you'll be a pincushion by the time you get the spell off.
Third. The Ring doesn't want anyone but Sauron. It always tries to return to him, no matter what.
And how, exactly, does Voldemort pry the Ring from Sauron?

[Ditto]

Sauron doesn't have the Ring. (Neither does Voldemort, of course.) This is assuming Voldemort gets the Ring at some point, since it was suggested that Voldemort could defeat Sauron rather easily once he had the Ring.

I don't know what orcs you're thinking of, but they can't find, aim, draw, and strike a wizard that just appeared a ways off in the time it takes to think a single word.

Fiendfyre is dangerous when you stand in the middle of it. Key to this strategy is *leaving* the area, which is a simple thing when you're not trapped between piles of junk in the Room of Requirement.

[LordVader]

But why doesn't Sauron have the ring? This is the pre-Last Alliance Sauron, correct?

Also, there is more than just a single word. You also have to perform the motions with the wand, and the wizard needs time to pick out targets as well, and adjust to his surroundings. Also, whether or not the wizards know the terrain will severly affect Apparating, and it takes time to Apparate as well. Thus, plenty of time to fire arrows.

[Ditto]

This is LOTR Sauron. Fiendfyre does not have to be aimed, and wand motions are simple enough. The assumed battlefield is a more or less open plain, so the wizard can sight a location with ease - or just release it from over the next hill.

[Rowanomicon]

I didn't want to post in this thread again, but since it's continuing with or without me I might as well throw in a couple more cents.

We know the follow:

-Voldemort cannot destroy The Ring (I'm ruling out ridiculously lucky accidents because if that's how Sauron is defeated then it has nothing to do with who he'd fighting).

-Sauron can destroy Voldemorts horcruxes (He'd just have to find and acquire them. This might take a long time, but Sauron effectively has unlimited time and resources).

If that's not enough for you, read on.

-Voldemort would submit to the The Ring (on some level) before even coming in direct contact with it. The Ring's power over him would only increase. The Ring would exert its will over his until it became nigh impossible for V to do anything that The Ring (Sauron) did not approve. The Ring would betray Voldemort.

-Voldemort's followers would also become obsessed with The Ring (and they aren't that loyal to begin with).

-The Ring ultimately desires Sauron (and what is best for Sauron) so would work on getting away from V and into the hands of the true Dark Lord.

Therefore if Voldemort acquires The Ring it will only lead him to defeat.

If Sauron has The Ring V stands no chance what so ever. Period. I repeat, period.

If neither of them has The Ring:

A) Sauron's forces defeat Voldemort's forces. Sauron finds and destroys Voldemort's horcruxes then kills or enslaves* him.

B) Voldemort's forces defeat Sauron's forces (no matter who won it would take a while). Sauron finds and destroys Voldemort's horcruxes then kills or enslaves him.

or

C) Voldemort's forces defeat Sauron's forces quickly (haha). Voldemort (how again?) reduces Sauron to an impotent wisp.

Those are, as I see it, the possibilities. If A or B happens Sauron wins. If C happens Voldemort "wins" for the time being. However he has not totally destroyed Sauron and Sauon can (and will) come back again. This is valid in a vs thread. (Otherwise it would be like having a versus thread where Superman can't fly. Coming back again is something that Sauron can, and therefore will, do. Face it.)

Voldemort's greatest supporter in this thread admitted that Voldemort would not win every time. Therefore even if C happened, A or B would happen later.

*The reason that Sauron does not have to permanently and utterly destroy Voldemort is that he has the ability to put Voldemort completely and utterly under his control. Voldemort lacks the ability to put Sauron completely and utterly under his control therefore to win he must totally destroy Sauron.

Finally I'd like to note that I seem to have interpreted an aspect of Middle Earth differently than most. I felt that Gandolf and others saying that they could use The Ring to overthrow Sauron was more a testiment to The Rings powers than to their own. I saw it that even these, the most powerful beings, were lured and tricked by The Ring into thinking that they could command it.
The only being in the entirety of Middle Earth that The Ring did not have some power over was Tom Bombadil. He himself said that he had no power over The Ring, but that it merely had no power over him.
The Ring did, however, have power over Gandolf an d the other's that claim to have been able to use it to defeat Sauron.
I'm not saying they couldn't use The Ring, they could. I'm just saying that I think The Ring (Sauron) would ultimately win.

[Skjaldbakka]

Isildur was a great hero, one of the men of Numenor. He defeated Sauron and claimed the ring. The ring waited for the right moment, and then betrayed him. Why would it be any different with Voldimort?

[Executor]

Heh, since this seems to be the thread of HP vs LOTR, I hearby present to the present Tolkienologists another versus to be discussed.

Voldemort vs Morgoth

With Silmarils included on Morgoth's side. I predict Morgoth's victory over Voldemort to be even more onesided than Sauron's

And in terms of Evil Name, the Tolkien villains win every time. Gollum, Smaug, Sauron, the Witch-King, Morgoth. I mean come on, Voldemort, it sounds like some sort of frog or perhaps a fungus.

[Rowanomicon]

Voldemort vs Morgoth

Hahahaha! This entire time I was thinking of making the thread a downgrade of Voldemort whoopage. I figured Voldemor vs Witch-King, Saruman, or Gandalf. Of course I still think Voldy would have his hiney handed to him quite handily by any of those opponents. However i think you have the right idea: up the beating level. I mean come on, there must be consequences for calling yourself "dark lord" when you're so...OK, I'm not going to go into any specific insults, but you get the idea.

[The_Snark]

Well, Voldemort is a Latin-based name. I'm not fluent at all in Latin, but from what I understand, Vol is a root referring to theft or a thief, and Mort is obviously death. Thief of death, cheating death. Tolkien's names also had meanings, but in his own invented (but very realistic) languages. Sauron, for example, means "the abhorred" or "the abominated."

I put this in Sauron's favor: I have yet to see anybody argue that Voldemort could defeat Sauron without using and mastering the Ring. His own power is insufficient; he has to rely on using Sauron's against him. That's a legitimate strategy, I suppose, but remember that the Ring does seek to bring anyone who wields it other than Sauron to an untimely end. And of course, it would take time to master it. Voldemort is being forced to run and playing for time

Voldemort vs Morgoth

If it's uncertain whether or not Voldemort could win over Sauron, replacing it with a more powerful enemy doesn't really make sense... But yeah, any one of Morgoth's primary minions could have crushed Voldemort.

And on Fiendfyre- It was stopped by a wooden door. It's not that all-consuming, it won't destroy entire armies by itself.

[Skjaldbakka]

Voldemort vs Morgoth

Wow. There is no reason to even consider this. Sauron is a demi-god. Morgoth is the most powerful of the Valar. It took all the races of middle-earth, including the Valar, to take him down.

I don't think the Silmarils actually gave him any significant power, though. He just wanted them.

[Executor]

I'll admit it. I really don't like Voldemort as a villain. Watching him get whooped by progressively more powerful opponents would bemuse me very much.

[Skjaldbakka]

I think Voldimort would have trouble dealing with the Balrog, or Smaug. Gandalf defeated the Balrog, but couldn't take Sauron. Glorfindel would have had a chance against Sauron, given that he defeated one of Morgoth's other liuetenants, but someone thought Pippin should go along instead of the epic paladin brought back from the dead to defeat Sauron.