Sauron vs Voldemort

[Pun Pun]

The whole kittin kabodle comes down to a race to see if old Saroun with his demigod status, and million Orcs can croak 7 horax, which are limitadly magically protected, or if volimort can apparate, grab a heavily protected ring then apparate to a certain mountain range and be capable of of dropping it into the fires.

He would not be able to so Sauron really is the Cats Pajamas

[Rowanomicon]

Sure- cookies for all!

No! Damnit, I was using the cookies as a bargaining chip to coerce Ditto over to the dark(er) side.

[warty goblin]

No! Damnit, I was using the cookies as a bargaining chip to coerce Ditto over to the dark(er) side.

Right, cookies are now issued on a strictly limited basis for acts condusive to the betterment of the Anti Sauron Defamation Allied League (ASDAL) or the entity which it represents. We regret having to step down on our regularly open cookie policy, but in these uncertain and dangerous times, steps must be taken.

The whole kittin kabodle comes down to a race to see if old Saroun with his demigod status, and million Orcs can croak 7 horax, which are limitadly magically protected, or if volimort can apparate, grab a heavily protected ring then apparate to a certain mountain range and be capable of of dropping it into the fires.

He would not be able to so Sauron really is the Cats Pajamas

Correct, although by the terms of the thread, established around page 15 or so (I think), its a fight to whoever kills the other once first. Essentially it recognizes that both are difficult or impossible to permentantly dispose of, but that during that critical reformation time, an evil entity is so vulnerable to outside forces turning it from its path of world domination by subliminal messages and destroying its magical life support.

[EvilElitest]

Right, cookies are now issued on a strictly limited basis for acts condusive to the betterment of the Anti Sauron Defamation Allied League (ASDAL) or the entity which it represents. We regret having to step down on our regularly open cookie policy, but in these uncertain and dangerous times, steps must be taken.

For the good of the group, sometimes we must slow our cookie giving policies. In this case, tempting Ditto is our top priotity
from,
EE

[....]

I never got the cookie thing.

Money always seemed a better reward.

[Ditto]

FYI - Month-end closes at the workplace are lame.

I blame Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

FYI - Month-end closes at the workplace are lame.

I blame Sauron.

After my ninja attack on you failed, Sauron had to come up with different methods
from,
EE

[....]

Sauron has no methods anymore, he's what Terry Pratchett calls a 'small god'.

[EvilElitest]

Sauron has no methods anymore, he's what Terry Pratchett calls a 'small god'.

what?
from,
EE

[....]

Sauron was defeated. He is nothing more than the barest slip of a soul, hovering around and wishing maybe he'd just stayed to himself in Mordor.

Like a small god.

[EvilElitest]

Sauron was defeated. He is nothing more than the barest slip of a soul, hovering around and wishing maybe he'd just stayed to himself in Mordor.

Like a small god.

But we are assuming Sauron at his full power
from,
EE

[Rutee]

I think he's saying "This is what happened to Sauron after his defeat, similar to other defeated small Gods. Thus, we can surmise that Sauron is roughly on par with a small God."

I could be wrong, I know nothing of the Discworld and will keep it that way, since I have too much to read and see as is. But that was my reading of his post.

[EvilElitest]

I think he's saying "This is what happened to Sauron after his defeat, similar to other defeated small Gods. Thus, we can surmise that Sauron is roughly on par with a small God."

I could be wrong, I know nothing of the Discworld and will keep it that way, since I have too much to read and see as is. But that was my reading of his post.

we know that Sauron is the greatest of the Mairar, or lesser gods, so that is kinda already known, but thanks for the translation
from,
EE

[Rutee]

Small God is a term with a definition, which I'd love to have defined for me. It isn't simply application of the adjective "Small" to the word "God", I think, so no, it's possible that we /didn't/ know that.

[EvilElitest]

Small God is a term with a definition, which I'd love to have defined for me. It isn't simply application of the adjective "Small" to the word "God", I think, so no, it's possible that we /didn't/ know that.

are you asking me to difine it?
from,
EE

[Rutee]

I'm asking .... to define it, as he introduced it.

[HP Hurak]

since I have too much to read and see as is.

Speaking of having too much to read and see as is, there is something deeply fascinating about the length of this thread. (What is this world coming to?)

I'm inclined to think that even in a world of billions of ludicrously long internet forum discussions on ludicrous subjects this one really gets to take the cake, hands down.
¨o
Amazing! Rock on!

See you on page 70, if that might happen without the oceans all turning to blood as a direct result.

[EvilElitest]

Speaking of having too much to read and see as is, there is something deeply fascinating about the length of this thread. (What is this world coming to?)

I'm inclined to think that even in a world of billions of ludicrously long internet forum discussions on ludicrous subjects this one really gets to take the cake, hands down.
¨o
Amazing! Rock on!

See you on page 70, if that might happen without the oceans all turning to blood as a direct result.

oh this is nothing, search the gaming forum for link vs. sephiroth, now 53 pages, that is long
from,
EE

[Darkness_Elemen]

I'm asking .... to define it, as he introduced it.

A wikipedia link.

Note that although the article claims that Small Gods are unique to the Diskworld, the idea may be partially based on one found in D&D (as well as other fantasy worlds, I'm sure): That the reason gods encourage and protect worshipers is that they are in some way dependent on being believed in.

[Rutee]

Oh, I love that concept. I like how it's played with in Exalted best, but it's fun. I don't think Sauron is like that though..

[....]

Oh, I love that concept. I like how it's played with in Exalted best, but it's fun. I don't think Sauron is like that though..

In the fact that he once was a supremely powerful being who now has no power other than to watch what happens he is.

Obviously no one is going to worship him, though.

[The_Snark]

Sauron (along with the rest of the Maiar and Valar) was never dependent upon belief, but yes, his eventual fate is rather similar to those of the forgotten gods from Discworld.

[EvilElitest]

Ok, is this very relevant to the argument at hand?
from,
EE

[Rutee]

What argument? Sauron won.

[EvilElitest]

What argument? Sauron won.

touche

Where is ditto by the by?
But i might just leave this for the lich king vs. Sauron thread, because the lich king is much more a threat than Voldemort

from,
EE

[....]

A moderatly good shot with a high-powered rifle is more of a threat than Voldemort.

[Rutee]

Actually, someone did that;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya
Basically, a Magi who wins an all out brawl with other Magi and super-powerred servants by employing modern technology. It's an interesting story overall, and that's only part of it, but I found the concept fascinating at the time too; It was probably my first introduction to a setting where your mages aren't really THAT much better off then your mortals (I found out about oWoD Mages later; Sure, they're far more powerful then other members of the setting later on, but they're late bloomers XD). It's actually pretty refreshing, and fun to examine.

[Ditto]

I've been stuck with work nonsense, EE. See above. (You know that kind of day... everyone besides you & yours is going out of his or her way to slack off and generally contribute to your misery through inaction. That's been this week. I'm a walking, grousing, stereotype. ) And there's really no need to keep talking about the Link vs. Seph thread, which sounds like it was going on for the point of going on.

I, like WG, have loved coming here for the past - egods, happy two-month birthday today. 1100 posts... gods know how many I've made. I'm sure it's a serious chunk of my total post count. My time set aside for the thread was usually '9-5, intermittently' but the close put the kibosh on that plan of late.

It's been 50 posts since anything relevant to the debate was posted, lessee where the last bit of it was... looks like WG's definition of magic. A most excellent analysis, at that. Your devotion to the thread shows. :smallbigsmile: I'm not sure where we can draw the line between things that pre-exist as unalterable axioms (Gravity goes down) and things that are individually based (Go get power!) - something like the invisibility you raise is one of those middle ground things. The warded door, as well. For influencing people, it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure I understand your justification for 'No free-form flying'. What is 'an existing condition'? Wouldn't physic in general count? When you push an unobstructed door, it will open. If you want push X to not move it, you need to apply counterforce Y. Gandalf's axiom does this apparently, without actual counterforce Y present. Isn't that the same as ignoring physics, a la gravity?

I'm not sure I see how that can eventually be adapted to 'Wand waving -> Chicken'. That's the same point I made some time ago about 'Sauron can do anything he wills' not being as end-all as was suggested. He cannot simply say "All magic going through wands doesn't go through wands anymore; you must use chickens to cast". He could then, conceivably, say "I will it that no force opposing my rule can list their feet from the ground. And they glow bright blue." It needs to be targetted, like anythign else. 'Poultrify all wizards' is a hugetastic area effect of a completely different sort, and not supported by the axiom model as applied under the same pre-existing condition notion that gravity is.

Still waiting for more casters. Mouth of Sauron is... two?

Quadrillion comes after trillion.

Deadmeat returns! I must be off, so I can reply to bits of his another time, but I still don't know what tactics are being named as Ditto-y. I've cited all the combat examples (most importantly apparating wildly around the battlefield, which some seem to think is bunk) from duels going on in the books.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Black Numoreans have in the 'splat' books a sizeable amount of their population who are dark magicians of 'great' power.

Now have a guess how many of those there are...

Nope, your HP wizard population is not going to be outnumbered but that is the whole of that population and I am doubting that Voldemort has the whole of the Wizards behind him.

Btw, the 'splat' books are the extra stuff they released which details the hordes of background stuff Tolkien wrote and Silmarillion since you keep refering to the LotR powerlevel only and ignore anything else Sauron could do.

As for the tactics, please give me an example where Voldemort on meeting someone, anyone, for the first time in the books does not try to get up close to make use of his reputation to try and cause fear in his opponent?

Any time he comes across new opponents he pretty much mixes it up pretty close, now in his setting it is not such a bad idea because it shows his followers who is boss and how good he is but in this scenario...

Not exactly a good idea...

Except you instantly had him do some things that are soo much out of character that it is only re4asonable if this was not in fact Voldemort but Ditto fighting Sauron.

Now if both knew about each other then you could come up with that scenario but then you run straight into another problem...
Voldemort is not a master strategist and tactician like Sauron.
He is pretty got at guerilla tactics but not much else of the sort.
In a battle where both sides have prior knowledge of their opponent Suaron will own Voldemort and hard as he will outmanouver Voldemort very much from the beginning.

Also, remember the 'digging a hole above lava and having Sauron fall in it' tactic you posted?

Do you really think Voldemort would ever come up with something that elaborate and reliant on knowledge other then just magic?

That is again an example of you logically using the powers of Voldemort (as we can also logical work that it is possible to use them like this) to fight Sauron.

There are several other examples, all of them relying on the simple fact that they are not performed by a) Voldemort or b) by his less then effective lackeys because given the cannonical evidence from the Harry Potter books Voldemort and his lackeys are incapable of overcoming their personality flaws.

Now if they are no feasible for those people but you are referencing them to be used then by whom?
Ergo I said by Ditto, i.e. you.

As i have said before, you with the powers of Voldemort might actually worry Sauron, you might have a chance in a few thousand to actually even win.
and (some, removed as incorrect) MOST of the times you would loose would be because your minions would make mistakes and they are as much a weakness in that respect as a strength.

[HP Hurak]

oh this is nothing, search the gaming forum for link vs. sephiroth, now 53 pages, that is long
from,
EE

Well, the length alone is nothing. The Link vs. Sephiroth discussion had plenty of substance to keep it going, in that both those characters would have strong things going for them, which could be argued to be decisive for a thought showdown. Besides, there are far longer discussions than 53 pages or even 70 around.

No, the apocalyptic sign I see in this particular thread, is the fact that this 'discussion' has been running on thin air since page 1, and is still going strong... (except that most of the participants seems to have reached the point of exhaustion, now) 37 pages of energetic blabber on a subject with absolutely no substance, whatsoever... That is just awesome and at the same time horrifying...

I mean, COME ON... Voldemort never gets an honest chance in this fight, whichever way you want to cut it, provided Sauron is even incarnate and able to act in some form. Both should be imagined to be in some sense at their peak of potency, no? Do you want them to bring their respective minions, yes or no? It doesn't matter, now, does it? The mere suggestion of Voldemort winning is absurd either way.
Facing up to the emptiness of the discussion of any kind of duel between them, one could then look for the limits of Saurons utter superiority. Say, place the One ring in Voldemorts hand, as has been suggested. Then equip him with a brain for strategy, and let him try to either assemble an army strong enough to rule, or to resist the temptation of the ring and teleport to Mount Doom to destroy it. Voldemort being Voldemort shouldn't be able to resist the temptation to both keep, use and love it above all else; for what does he want, if not the power it unlocks? Being Voldemort he should also lack the humility and caution to even try to resist the temptation. Being Voldemort he would put it on almost instantly after realizing its power, and be discovered by the Eye almost as soon, for the relatively great power he would suddenly be. Being placed in the same universe, the participants in this showdown would presumably be working with the same cosmic limits of magical powers, no? So if Voldemort and apprentices such as HP can teleport in this universe, so can any other caster worth his salt (not to forget several thousand years of life and learning in the case of Sauron, who was also present and participant in the making of the world in the universe he hails from). Voldemort will probably get one flashy first escape from a bruise with a few nazgul or Sauron himself. Unable to resist the temptation of the ring, he is then spotted in his new location via the Eye (Saurons palantir), and suddenly finds himself surrounded by the nine or ftf with Sauron himself, at an inopportune moment. Sorry Voldemort, you shouldn't have.
The end.