Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Rynjin]

It's the whole package together, is the issue. It's far more oppressive than any aggressive deck should be, which is the issue. It has Control-like sustain with Aggro pressure and none of the weaknesses of either. It has a strong early, mid, and late game because all of its cards are good whenever you play them.

They have a 3 mana 3/3 deal 4 damage to a minion (effectively), a 5 mana 10/12 Taunt, a 7 mana 21/16 Rush and enough good cards to fill the gaps between those insane swing cards.

It's absolutely nuts, and nothing else any other class can do compares to it at the moment. It's like Conjurer's Calling Mage all over again except instead of needing to highroll having 2 cards in hand to win instantly they just need to draw a single one of 7-8 power cards before turn 8 to blow their opponent out instantly.

[Zevox]

It's the whole package together, is the issue. It's far more oppressive than any aggressive deck should be, which is the issue. It has Control-like sustain with Aggro pressure and none of the weaknesses of either. It has a strong early, mid, and late game because all of its cards are good whenever you play them.

Uh, it's not an aggressive deck. It's definitely in the vein of midrange or control, depending on how precisely you build it.

They have a 3 mana 3/3 deal 4 damage to a minion (effectively)

No they don't. You seem to be describing Corrupt Elementalist, but that's 5 mana, and that's fairly reasonable for 5 mana - basically a better version of Bomb Lobber from way back when. Good, but definitely nothing you should be comparing to Dragon's Pack or Galakrond himself.

And remember that Galakrond himself needs to be quite powerful at full power - you're jumping through hoops to get a big effect out of him, which should be of game-changing power level. That's the whole point, and all of the others are. (Well, except Warlock, which is currently getting screwed by the weak pool of Demons in standard.)

Dragon's Pack I agree is too much, and Galakrond having Shudderwock and the Quest around to grab extra repetitions is a concern. But it's not the whole package that's an issue, not by a long shot.

[Rynjin]

Uh, it's not an aggressive deck. It's definitely in the vein of midrange or control, depending on how precisely you build it.

The most popular decklists I'm seeing are absolutely aggressive. Not relentlessly SmOrctastic but they have a solid early game presence and just keep ramping pressure until they win on turn 7 or 8. Midrange and Control decks don't do that; both aim to win in the late game, not before turn 10.

No they don't. You seem to be describing Corrupt Elementalist, but that's 5 mana, and that's fairly reasonable for 5 mana - basically a better version of Bomb Lobber from way back when. Good, but definitely nothing you should be comparing to Dragon's Pack or Galakrond himself.

Yeah, I typed it wrong. It's significantly better than Bomb Lobber, regardless. The damage is aimed and splittable.

And remember that Galakrond himself needs to be quite powerful at full power - you're jumping through hoops to get a big effect out of him, which should be of game-changing power level. That's the whole point, and all of the others are. (Well, except Warlock, which is currently getting screwed by the weak pool of Demons in standard.)

Dragon's Pack I agree is too much, and Galakrond having Shudderwock and the Quest around to grab extra repetitions is a concern. But it's not the whole package that's an issue, not by a long shot.

You don't even need to jump through hoops. I wouldn't be surprised if refined versions of the deck later drop more and more Invoke cards; there's likely a sweet spot of consistency that lets you run even more powerful cards since your 5 mana deal 4 counts as TWO.

And yes, that is by definition the full package. No single card is the complete nuts, but the synergies between them are way out of whack, that's the whole point.

[Zevox]

The most popular decklists I'm seeing are absolutely aggressive. Not relentlessly SmOrctastic but they have a solid early game presence and just keep ramping pressure until they win on turn 7 or 8. Midrange and Control decks don't do that; both aim to win in the late game, not before turn 10.

The most popular decklists run a bunch of card draw (Novice Engineer, Mana Tide Totem, Far Sight) to more consistently hit their invokes and power cards. That's not aggressive by any means. They can win on earlier turns because the power spikes of those power cards (principally Dragon's Pack, Faceless Corrupter, and Galakrond; secondarily Kronx and Shudderwock after Galakrond has been played) enables it if not immediately answered, not because they're trying to be aggressive. Those are the versions that I'd call more midrange - the Quest versions of course being the more Controlling ones

Yeah, I typed it wrong. It's significantly better than Bomb Lobber, regardless. The damage is aimed and splittable.

Which is totally fine. Bomb Lobber was never more than a good arena card, power creep on him is no big deal.

You don't even need to jump through hoops. I wouldn't be surprised if refined versions of the deck later drop more and more Invoke cards; there's likely a sweet spot of consistency that lets you run even more powerful cards since your 5 mana deal 4 counts as TWO.

I doubt it. The Quest version can afford to drop some, since they can double up any that they draw once the Quest is done, but a normal version is going to lose a lot of consistency by cutting Invokes. The more you rely on Corrupt Elementist specifically, the more screwed you are if you don't draw them.

And yes, that is by definition the full package. No single card is the complete nuts, but the synergies between them are way out of whack, that's the whole point.

There is a single card that stands out as out of whack though: Dragon's Pack. The Invokes are fine. Galakrond is probably about where he should be, compared to the other Galakronds. Dragon's Pack though stands out as far and away the best "Invoke twice for a bonus" card - and that's despite it being up against 4 mana 5/4 draw 3 and 3 mana 9/6 rush. Because Dragon's Pack on its own is powerful enough to decide a game because the opponent lacks an answer, and that's not what those are supposed to do; that's what Galakrond is supposed to do, and unlike Galakrond you get two copies of Dragon's Pack. Having both (plus Faceless Corrupter, which is nearly as strong as Dragon's Pack) is likely the true source of the problem, I'd argue.

[Joran]

Data on play rates won't tell you the exact cause of changes in it. Ascribing lower play rates to Shaman specifically being a popular class, rather than the problems caused by the Wild Card Event as a whole, is quite a stretch. And that's assuming they have such data at all.

If number of games played nose-dived after a couple days after launch, it could definitely show a frustration with the meta. (They're obviously not going to share that data with us).

Additionally, they definitely have data about class play rates and win rates. At one point, Undertaker Hunter was 25% of the meta with a winrate of 55-57%. If Shaman gets that high, then you definitely want to act.

(Dean Ayala: We have a tool internally that clusters a bunch of deck archetypes and we look at it to see deck popularity and win rates. The way we generate the names for these clusters is to word cloud all the words players use to name their deck.)

The Hearthstone devs have a lot of data, especially at lower ranks and casuals, since the tracking sites require an add-on and so are biased more towards the harder core community.

All decks try to make it difficult for their opponent to stick a board - aggro and midrange ones by getting ahead on the board and trading favorably (plus some rush minions and direct damage methods), and control and combo ones using spells and rush minions that can kill your board from hand. It's the nature of the game.

Not all decks have a way of swinging back a board once it's lost; many variations of Zoo was like this. If you lost the board as Zoo, you better hope you had whittled them down low enough for the burst combo to kill them because you'd never get the board back.

What's good about Galakrond Shaman is that since a lot of the effects have Rush (or are overstated as hell), then despite it's relatively slow early game, it has big tempo swings in the mid to late game.

I've played quite a few games where someone would have 1 or 2 Faceless Corrupters around after some back and forth trading and I'd drop a fully Invoked Galakrond on their head, clearing 2 big minions and 1 medium minion and the game was basically over. It's just very difficult to beat a Shaman in a board battle at the moment.

Never mind the occasional stupidity of a turn 3-4 Mogu -> trade into a small-ish minion, evolve into a big 8 drop.

There is a single card that stands out as out of whack though: Dragon's Pack. The Invokes are fine. Galakrond is probably about where he should be, compared to the other Galakronds. Dragon's Pack though stands out as far and away the best "Invoke twice for a bonus" card - and that's despite it being up against 4 mana 5/4 draw 3 and 3 mana 9/6 rush. Because Dragon's Pack on its own is powerful enough to decide a game because the opponent lacks an answer, and that's not what those are supposed to do; that's what Galakrond is supposed to do, and unlike Galakrond you get two copies of Dragon's Pack. Having both (plus Faceless Corrupter, which is nearly as strong as Dragon's Pack) is likely the true source of the problem, I'd argue.

Shaman has a big swing turn with Galakrond, but it's also much easier for Shaman to fully invoke a Galakrond given they're the only ones with a double invoke. Also, the Freeze Invoke is very powerful.

Shaman invoke is also not a tempo loss and is often a tempo gain, especially since Shaman can use Mutate to evolve the understated 4 or 5 drops into something higher. 4 mana 2/2 rush is pretty bad tempo wise. 4 mana 2/2 + 2/1 is bearable.

The other is that Shudderwock allows Shaman to replay the Galakrond effects. 2 8/8s with rush and a 5/2 claw is ridiculous power. Getting it twice is back-breaking a lot of times.

I do agree that Galakrond Shaman would probably not be as powerful without Dragon's Pack. Dropping that on turn 5 was frequently game ending. I'd smash Faceless Corrupter too just because it's too powerful and neutral.

The other I'd think about hitting is Mutate on Shaman.

[Zevox]

Oh hey, they added at least one Battlegrounds quest! Just got it today, play two Battlegrounds games for 60 gold. Glad to see that, hope there's more.

(They're obviously not going to share that data with us).

Indeed, and random speculation about what that data may be is kind of pointless.

Additionally, they definitely have data about class play rates and win rates.

I don't doubt that. But that's also not relevant to what I said, which is essentially that having that data tells you how things currently are, but not why. If the drop in play rate you proposed exists then they know about it, certainly. But it would be strictly an assumption to conclude that it's because Shaman, the class, is popular (as opposed to their current deck being too powerful, or disappointment with the rest of the expansion, or whatever else).

Not all decks have a way of swinging back a board once it's lost; many variations of Zoo was like this. If you lost the board as Zoo, you better hope you had whittled them down low enough for the burst combo to kill them because you'd never get the board back.

...yes, which is in line with what I said about aggro and midrange decks trying to make it hard for an opponent's board to stick by getting out ahead of them and trading favorably.

What's good about Galakrond Shaman is that since a lot of the effects have Rush (or are overstated as hell), then despite it's relatively slow early game, it has big tempo swings in the mid to late game.

...so, it's an effective midrange/control deck.

Shaman has a big swing turn with Galakrond, but it's also much easier for Shaman to fully invoke a Galakrond given they're the only ones with a double invoke. Also, the Freeze Invoke is very powerful.

Shaman invoke is also not a tempo loss and is often a tempo gain, especially since Shaman can use Mutate to evolve the understated 4 or 5 drops into something higher. 4 mana 2/2 rush is pretty bad tempo wise. 4 mana 2/2 + 2/1 is bearable.

The other is that Shudderwock allows Shaman to replay the Galakrond effects. 2 8/8s with rush and a 5/2 claw is ridiculous power. Getting it twice is back-breaking a lot of times.

I do agree that Galakrond Shaman would probably not be as powerful without Dragon's Pack. Dropping that on turn 5 was frequently game ending. I'd smash Faceless Corrupter too just because it's too powerful and neutral.

The other I'd think about hitting is Mutate on Shaman.

I don't disagree with any of that, though I don't think all of it is a problem. I agree about Dragon's Pack and Faceless Corrupter, obviously. Mutate I would shed no tears for since I've always disliked evolve as a mechanic (too much RNG for my liking), but I don't see how it can be altered. Its text is as basic as the effect can get, and nerfing it to 1 mana just makes it a much worse Unstable Evolution, and thus probably unplayable.

Similarly, not sure that the Galakrond/Shudderwock thing can be addressed without completely screwing the Shaman Galakrond - and since Shudderwock is rotating out next expansion, I'm similarly not sure it even should be, since the problem is scheduled to fix itself soon enough that way.

[Rynjin]

...But Shudderwock is the least of the deck's problems. The deck will be slightly less powerful without it, but in the grand scheme of things it's just another power spike in a deck that already has multiple huge power spikes already. Losing one finisher in a deck with 3 other finishers isn't going to appreciably lower the deck's power level; they'll just add in another, weaker finisher instead. If not from the current sets, from the new set that will come in when Shudderwock rotates.

[Seerow]

If I had my way I would change the shaman galakrond hp to create 1/1 rush minions instead of 2/1. This makes both shaman invoke cards much more reasonable, and seems more comparable with the other galakrond hps.

With that I'm not even sure dragon pack would need a nerd, but I would not be sad to see the buff dropped from +3 to +2.

The best fix for evolve I've seen floating around is have the Mana cost you pay for the minion persist on the board. Drop a 0 Mana mogu, evolve it into a 1 drop instead of a 8 drop. Still leaves evolve as really strong on tokens and minions that duplicate themselves or have most of their value in battlecry, but curbs some of the most commonly broken issues with it.

[Zevox]

...But Shudderwock is the least of the deck's problems. The deck will be slightly less powerful without it, but in the grand scheme of things it's just another power spike in a deck that already has multiple huge power spikes already. Losing one finisher in a deck with 3 other finishers isn't going to appreciably lower the deck's power level; they'll just add in another, weaker finisher instead. If not from the current sets, from the new set that will come in when Shudderwock rotates.

That's an overstatement I feel, although I agree with the general sentiment that it's far from the main thing contributing to the deck's power level. Hence my advocating hitting Dragon's Pack and Faceless Corrupter, which I'd say are the main things, alongside Galakrond himself, who should be the deck's main power source.

If I had my way I would change the shaman galakrond hp to create 1/1 rush minions instead of 2/1. This makes both shaman invoke cards much more reasonable, and seems more comparable with the other galakrond hps.

That doesn't seem comparable to the others at all. At that point it's just a somewhat better Paladin hero power - and frequently equivalent to a worse Mage hero power (since it can't go face). Don't agree with that change in the slightest, personally. The hero power really isn't anywhere near being a problem.

With that I'm not even sure dragon pack would need a nerd,

I think it very much still would, no question.

The best fix for evolve I've seen floating around is have the Mana cost you pay for the minion persist on the board. Drop a 0 Mana mogu, evolve it into a 1 drop instead of a 8 drop. Still leaves evolve as really strong on tokens and minions that duplicate themselves or have most of their value in battlecry, but curbs some of the most commonly broken issues with it.

Hm, perhaps, though who knows if that's practical for them to implement. People suggested similar about the Mountain Giant + Conjurer's Calling interaction, and they didn't do it then for whatever reason.

[Rynjin]

That doesn't seem comparable to the others at all. At that point it's just a somewhat better Paladin hero power - and frequently equivalent to a worse Mage hero power (since it can't go face). Don't agree with that change in the slightest, personally. The hero power really isn't anywhere near being a problem.

Have we already completely forgotten that a "slightly better Paladin Hero Power" was so oppressive that a set's SIGNATURE LEGENDARIES and all their support cards, which a large portion of the set was built around, had to be rotated into Wild nearly two years early?

[Zevox]

Have we already completely forgotten that a "slightly better Paladin Hero Power" was so oppressive that a set's SIGNATURE LEGENDARIES and all their support cards, which a large portion of the set was built around, had to be rotated into Wild nearly two years early?

None of that is true. The Paladin hero power at double strength or costing 1 from turn 1 is much more impactful than Galakrond Shaman's hero power (which is usually more comparable to the upgraded Mage hero power instead, and you'll notice that Odd Mage only became a thing after Jan'ali was introduced, and even then wasn't often that good). Also, cards only stay in standard for two years maximum; Baku and Genn were rotated one year early. And actually most of Witchwood wasn't built around them - that's why only a handful of support cards for them existed.

[Rynjin]

None of that is true. The Paladin hero power at double strength or costing 1 from turn 1 is much more impactful than Galakrond Shaman's hero power (which is usually more comparable to the upgraded Mage hero power instead, and you'll notice that Odd Mage only became a thing after Jan'ali was introduced, and even then wasn't often that good).

Galakrond Shaman's Hero Power IS active from turn 1, with Invocation of Frost. It lets them get on the board fast, or take it back easily if going second. It is Glacial Shard with Rush, at its worst, and that was already a great card.

Also, cards only stay in standard for two years maximum; Baku and Genn were rotated one year early.

Right, my bad. Still, an utterly unprecedented move.

And actually most of Witchwood wasn't built around them - that's why only a handful of support cards for them existed.

A lot of Witchwood was balanced with the assumption that Even/Odd was going to be a thing, as were the rest of the Year of the Raven sets. It is a large part of why I suspect Paladin was so weak for so long; Boomsday and Rumble were designed with the expectation that Odd and Even Paladin were going to be the default Paladin playstyles for the next year.

That early rotation deleted four of the strongest decks in the game at the time (Odd AND Even Paladin, Even Shaman, and Odd Mage), all bolstered by a "slightly better Hero Power".

Galakrond cards are even more efficient. Not only do they have a negligible deckbuilding impact (because every single one of the cards is well statted either in addition to or when including their effects) they are highly efficient cards.

1 mana Freeze a minion summon a 2/1 Elemental with Rush is, on its own, a very powerful card. 4 mana summon a 2/2 and a 2/1 with Rush is a powerful card. 5 mana 3/3 summon 2 2/1's with Rush is a powerful card. Etc., etc. These are cards you would run in a deck regardless of the payoff at the end. That's the problem. The big power spikes are just icing on the cake. Galakrond Shaman would already be an extremely powerful deck without the easy big stats in the midgame.

Playing Galakrond in Shaman is an absolute no-brainer. It is a braindead easy deck to build and play. The fact that it is so effective that Over 50% of players at rank 1 are playing it is insane.

That is what I mean by the full package is the issue. The cards are individually strong AND ALSO set up insane bursts of turbo value. I've played other Galakrond decks and they are, on paper, very strong as well; they match up well against most other decks in the game. But everything about Galakrond Shaman is completely out of whack compared to those other conceptually powerful decks.

[Seerow]

That doesn't seem comparable to the others at all. At that point it's just a somewhat better Paladin hero power - and frequently equivalent to a worse Mage hero power (since it can't go face). Don't agree with that change in the slightest, personally. The hero power really isn't anywhere near being a problem.

I feel like the flexibility of the body makes up for it. Consider what the Shaman invoke cards look like with the change:

Invocation of Frost: Currently a Glacial Shard (a good card that saw play across a lot of decks) with rush. The nerf still leaves it as arguably better than Glacial Shard, but at least making the minion a 1/1 makes that arguable.

Corrupt Elementalist: Currently a gets 7/5 of stats with partial rush for 5 mana, which is totally a playable card by itself even without considering the galakrond payoff. Nerf would bring it down to a 5/5 with partial rush, which is totally still a playable card, but you wouldn't want to use it without the galakrond payoff.


Basically the way I'm looking at it, either they nerf Galakrond's hero power, which means nerfing a card that was given for free, or nerfing the entire rest of the Shaman Galakrond package. Because the key problem is they gave Shaman Galakrond not only the best/most proactive hero power (except maybe the Warrior hero power, that one is arguable, though the drawback of damaging your own face I feel makes up the difference of the 1 extra attack) but also by far the most efficient Invoke cards to use with it. Nerfing the Shaman HP, even if it means making that hero power slightly less special, is the simpler route overall. Though I suppose doing something like making Corrupt Elementalist only invoke once and invocation of frost cost 2 mana while also nerfing Dragon Pack would not be too far out there.

[Zevox]

Galakrond Shaman's Hero Power IS active from turn 1, with Invocation of Frost.

That is not even remotely the same thing and you know it. Invocation of Frost on turn 1 is just Glacial Shard (unless you're going second and the opponent had a 1-drop), which isn't even good without a target worth freezing. None of the Invoke cards need nerfing. The hero power itself becomes active after Galakrond comes down, which is a huge difference from Baku and Genn, who enabled you to benefit from a stronger hero power (i.e. effect which you always have once per turn and doesn't require a card) for the entire game right from turn 1. There is no legitimate comparison between those.

1 mana Freeze a minion summon a 2/1 Elemental with Rush is, on its own, a very powerful card. 4 mana summon a 2/2 and a 2/1 with Rush is a powerful card. 5 mana 3/3 summon 2 2/1's with Rush is a powerful card. Etc., etc. These are cards you would run in a deck regardless of the payoff at the end. That's the problem. The big power spikes are just icing on the cake. Galakrond Shaman would already be an extremely powerful deck without the easy big stats in the midgame.

The 1 mana spell is arguably powerful on its own, but only arguably (it's basically slightly better Holy Smite/Arcane Shot except it can't go face, or arguably worse Ray of Frost). Corrupt Elementalist is powerful, sure, but not unreasonably so. And arguing that 4 mana for a 2/2 rush and a 2/1 rush is powerful is total nonsense - even in Shaman, that card is not good, it's just better than it is in the other classes (except maybe Warrior, depending on context).

And here's the thing: I would argue that Galakrond Shaman should remain a good deck. Just because it's too good now doesn't mean it should be nerfed into the ground. The goal of a nerf should be to hit it enough that it's no longer overpowering most of the rest of what's out there, but still leave it good. So you hit the biggest, obvious problem cards, rather than undermine the entire deck at its base. Dragon's Pack and Faceless Corrupter, not the hero power.

I've played other Galakrond decks and they are, on paper, very strong as well; they match up well against most other decks in the game.

Oh, I wish that were true. I've tried to make Galakrond Rogue and Priest work, and they just don't seem to. Rogue is better than Priest, but still loses to most things in my experience, and Priest just sucks. And judging from the little I've seen of Galakrond Warlock, it's not much better than Priest, and the extent to which it is basically boils down to the Zoo or Handlock shells the Galakrond package is getting slotted into being better than the current Control Priest that its Galakrond package goes into. Warrior is the only one that seems actually also be fairly good - and unfortunately that's one I don't want to play, personally...

Basically the way I'm looking at it, either they nerf Galakrond's hero power, which means nerfing a card that was given for free, or nerfing the entire rest of the Shaman Galakrond package. Because the key problem is they gave Shaman Galakrond not only the best/most proactive hero power (except maybe the Warrior hero power, that one is arguable, though the drawback of damaging your own face I feel makes up the difference of the 1 extra attack) but also by far the most efficient Invoke cards to use with it.

As above, I simply don't agree that that's the problem. Shaman's Galakrond package is fine, it's the other ludicrous power spikes they get on top of Galakrond himself that add up to them going from good to overpowered.

[Rynjin]

That is not even remotely the same thing and you know it. Invocation of Frost on turn 1 is just Glacial Shard (unless you're going second and the opponent had a 1-drop), which isn't even good without a target worth freezing. None of the Invoke cards need nerfing. The hero power itself becomes active after Galakrond comes down, which is a huge difference from Baku and Genn, who enabled you to benefit from a stronger hero power (i.e. effect which you always have once per turn and doesn't require a card) for the entire game right from turn 1. There is no legitimate comparison between those.

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. I've both played the deck and played (more than I can stomach) against it; it is oppressive from turn 1 and only ramps up from there. Being able to get on board and **** down an opposing Rogue or Hunter from doing the same can be backbreaking.

The 1 mana spell is arguably powerful on its own, but only arguably (it's basically slightly better Holy Smite/Arcane Shot except it can't go face, or arguably worse Ray of Frost). Corrupt Elementalist is powerful, sure, but not unreasonably so. And arguing that 4 mana for a 2/2 rush and a 2/1 rush is powerful is total nonsense - even in Shaman, that card is not good, it's just better than it is in the other classes (except maybe Warrior, depending on context).

I've found it quite solid in Shaman, Warrior, and Warlock. It is "4 mana 4/3, deal 4 damage to a minion/2 damage to 2 minions". It's a really good card. It is SLIGHTLY worse than Restless Mummy, and that's potentially arguable since it doesn't have the issue that has in running down minions with high health and low attack (like EVIL Miscreant).

And here's the thing: I would argue that Galakrond Shaman should remain a good deck. Just because it's too good now doesn't mean it should be nerfed into the ground. The goal of a nerf should be to hit it enough that it's no longer overpowering most of the rest of what's out there, but still leave it good. So you hit the biggest, obvious problem cards, rather than undermine the entire deck at its base. Dragon's Pack and Faceless Corrupter, not the hero power.

Sure? And it would remain good if Galakrond was nerfed. Pushing the hero to 9 mana also helps a lot.

Oh, I wish that were true. I've tried to make Galakrond Rogue and Priest work, and they just don't seem to. Rogue is better than Priest, but still loses to most things in my experience, and Priest just sucks. And judging from the little I've seen of Galakrond Warlock, it's not much better than Priest, and the extent to which it is basically boils down to the Zoo or Handlock shells the Galakrond package is getting slotted into being better than the current Control Priest that its Galakrond package goes into. Warrior is the only one that seems actually also be fairly good - and unfortunately that's one I don't want to play, personally...

I've really enjoyed my time with Galazoolock...though to be fair it shifted a bit away from Zoo and into a more midrange-y Dragon package pretty quick. Crazed Netherwing is lowkey kind of nuts.

Of course that and all other decks have fallen by the wayside to my one true love so far: Highlander Murloc Dragon Hand Paladin.

It sounds like a terrible mess but it works surprisingly well. The "Hand" package (Sandwasp Queen, Bronze Herald, Twilight Drake, Mountain Giant, Glowstone Technician, Dragonspeaker) is the weakest part (and I may cut at least part of it at some point) but the Murloc/Dragon synergy is surprisingly solid in Paladin. Crystology draws you an excellent early game, with Dragons then carrying you into the mid-late game. Skyfin is another card I think is lowkey insanely powerful in the right deck, and makes for a backbreaking bridge between the early and late game; it is at worst a 5 mana 7/5, and often far better.

[Resileaf]

Side note, the thread is rapidly approaching its 50th page, and we should consider a new thread title.

I suggest "Great Galakronds Galore"

[Joran]

I don't disagree with any of that, though I don't think all of it is a problem. I agree about Dragon's Pack and Faceless Corrupter, obviously. Mutate I would shed no tears for since I've always disliked evolve as a mechanic (too much RNG for my liking), but I don't see how it can be altered. Its text is as basic as the effect can get, and nerfing it to 1 mana just makes it a much worse Unstable Evolution, and thus probably unplayable.

The other is hitting the Mogu interaction and nerfing Mogu into a much higher mana cost or only taking account your own minions.

We should be seeing the nerf anytime soon, so it'll be interesting to see what they do.

[Psionic Dog]

Personally I think Galakrond Shaman just needs two nerfs:
a) Dragon's Pack should only give +2/2 after double invoke,
b) Galakrond (all of them) should scale linearly instead of exponentially and give a smaller claw. Ie, max out with a 4/2 claw and 2x 6/6 Storms for Shaman instead of a 5/2 claw with 2x 8/8 storms.

Individually that leaves all the cards still 'good' but cumulatively adds up to -10 face dmg, -10/10 stats removed from a typical Galakrond-Shudderwock deck.

As it is Dragon's Pack trades too efficiently with what should be the other new over-stated 5-drops (Faceless Corruptor, Shield of Galakrond, etc) and watching Shudder effortless summon an extra set of 2x 8/8s after you manage to heroically survive the first wave is rage inducing.

[Zevox]

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. I've both played the deck and played (more than I can stomach) against it; it is oppressive from turn 1 and only ramps up from there. Being able to get on board and **** down an opposing Rogue or Hunter from doing the same can be backbreaking.

Right - like I said, it's an effective board control deck. That's the playstyle.

I've found it quite solid in Shaman, Warrior, and Warlock. It is "4 mana 4/3, deal 4 damage to a minion/2 damage to 2 minions". It's a really good card. It is SLIGHTLY worse than Restless Mummy, and that's potentially arguable since it doesn't have the issue that has in running down minions with high health and low attack (like EVIL Miscreant).

You don't get those stats if you do that damage, though. Deal 4 damage for 4 mana is not particularly good, nor is deal 2 to 2. The flexibility makes it more bearable, but still not actually strong. And it's a lot worse than Restless Mummy, because it deals only 2/3 of Restless Mummy's damage. Restless Mummy is a minions-only Fireball or aimed Multishot, at your choice; this invoke card in Shaman is 4 mana Shadow Bolt or aimed 4 mana Cleave, at your choice. That's a substantial difference.

Sure? And it would remain good if Galakrond was nerfed. Pushing the hero to 9 mana also helps a lot.

If the hero power was nerfed, I am not at all sure it would remain good. That affects too much of it too significantly, I fear.

Pushing Galakrond to 9 might be a solution (I like how it would also stop the Quest + Galakrond interaction), but I'm not sure they'd be willing to do that given the symmetry between the five Galakronds all being the same mana cost.

The other is hitting the Mogu interaction and nerfing Mogu into a much higher mana cost or only taking account your own minions.

We should be seeing the nerf anytime soon, so it'll be interesting to see what they do.

I suppose they could do that, though it doesn't feel like Mogu is a big problem. They didn't seem to consider it an issue previously, after all.

Personally I think Galakrond Shaman just needs two nerfs:
a) Dragon's Pack should only give +2/2 after double invoke,
b) Galakrond (all of them) should scale linearly instead of exponentially and give a smaller claw. Ie, max out with a 4/2 claw and 2x 6/6 Storms for Shaman instead of a 5/2 claw with 2x 8/8 storms.

Individually that leaves all the cards still 'good' but cumulatively adds up to -10 face dmg, -10/10 stats removed from a typical Galakrond-Shudderwock deck.

As it is Dragon's Pack trades too efficiently with what should be the other new over-stated 5-drops (Faceless Corruptor, Shield of Galakrond, etc) and watching Shudder effortless summon an extra set of 2x 8/8s after you manage to heroically survive the first wave is rage inducing.

Honestly, I think +2/+2 on Dragon's Pack is still too strong - that's two Yetis with taunt for 5, which still seems like enough to easily turn a game on its head. I feel like it needs to drop to at least +1/+2.

As for the latter, the other Galakronds are mostly not even that good, with only Warrior really seeming to have potential anymore, so anything done to all of them strikes me as just a bad idea.

[Stevesciguy]

Nerfs and Battlegrounds changes have been announced:

Corrupt Elementalist
Now costs 6 Mana (up from 5).
​
Sludge Slurper
Now has 1 Attack (down from 2).
​
Faceless Corruptor
Now has 4 Attack (down from 5).
​
Mogu Fleshshaper
Now costs 9 Mana (up from 7).
​

\Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.*

Battlegrounds:

The Boogeymonster
Moved from Tavern Tier 5 to Tavern Tier 4.
​
Mechano-egg
Moved from Tavern Tier 5 to Tavern Tier 4.
​
The Beast
Moved from Tavern Tier 4 to Tavern Tier 3.
​
Coldlight Seer
Moved from Tavern Tier 2 to Tavern Tier 3.
​
Primalfin Lookout (changed last week)
Moved from Tavern Tier 4 to Tavern Tier 5.
​
Nightmare Amalgam
Has been removed from the pool of available minions.
​
Brann Bronzebeard
Has been removed from the pool of available heroes.
​
Bartendotron
Has been added to the pool of available heroes.

[Zevox]

Nerfs and Battlegrounds changes have been announced:

Corrupt Elementalist
Now costs 6 Mana (up from 5).
​
Sludge Slurper
Now has 1 Attack (down from 2).
​
Faceless Corruptor
Now has 4 Attack (down from 5).
​
Mogu Fleshshaper
Now costs 9 Mana (up from 7).

Sludge Slurper was nerfed? Why the hell would they do that? What does it have to do with anything? And Dragon's Pack wasn't touched, and Faceless Corrupter only lost 1 attack?

This does not seem likely to make a huge difference, I don't think. ​The Elementalist nerf will be a bit of an issue, sure, and the Mogu nerf will hurt the more standard version of the deck and might discourage running that plus Mutate, but with nothing done about Dragon's Pack, Faceless Corruptor barely touched, plus Galakrond himself unaffected, it strikes me that the deck's power cards are all still in place and just as potent as they were.

And seriously, I have to repeat: Sludge Slurper? What the hell?

Battlegrounds:

The Boogeymonster
Moved from Tavern Tier 5 to Tavern Tier 4.
​
Mechano-egg
Moved from Tavern Tier 5 to Tavern Tier 4.
​
The Beast
Moved from Tavern Tier 4 to Tavern Tier 3.
​
Coldlight Seer
Moved from Tavern Tier 2 to Tavern Tier 3.
​
Primalfin Lookout (changed last week)
Moved from Tavern Tier 4 to Tavern Tier 5.
​
Nightmare Amalgam
Has been removed from the pool of available minions.
​
Brann Bronzebeard
Has been removed from the pool of available heroes.
​
Bartendotron
Has been added to the pool of available heroes.

*nods along with changes, until he gets to Nightmare Amalgam*
*spit-take*

Wait, what? Oh, damn, that's enormous. And I kind of don't think I like it, personally. Until they introduce Dragons (or re-introduce Amalgam), it means that Menagerie Magician and Zoobot no longer have a target for the third of their buffs, and just hits the menagerie strategy in general super hard, when the Lightfang nerf and Murloc buffs already knocked it down a peg. Also, indirect buff to The Curator, who was already one of the strongest heroes, since now he's the only one who gets an Amalgam.

Anyway, on the other changes - Murloc nerfs are nice, though I really worry that not doing anything about Bagurgle will mean they remain dominant. Mechano-Egg moving down a tier is good I guess, but I'm not sure how much it'll increase its appeal. The Boogeymonster and Beast moving down a tier barely matters - maybe more people getting bad choices will use them temporarily now, particularly since the Beast is big for tier 3, but that's about it. And Brann... eh, he was too strong, but I'd rather have seen a nerf of some kind than replace him with such a boring, weak hero as Bartendotron, personally. If they were bringing back one of the removed ones I'd rather have seen King Mukla.

[heronbpv]

I swear I thought it was the Brann minion for a sec... anyway, those changes, though!
@Standard:
Another case of left field nerfs on Shaman, eh? Is this traditional now? Just like last time with the +3 atk buff, I share Zevox's sentiment that it's both unusual and seemingly unwarranted to nerf Slurper now after all this time. I can see a 2 atk minion being problematic in aggro dominated metas, but why now? And why him and not the Galakrond-pay-off card? Is there reason to believe maybe the current meta changes are drifting towards knocking Shaman down another peg, so nerfing it was unnecessary? Too many questions!!
As for the other nerfs, I can see reason, with the Faceless ubiquity and Fleshshaper having being always a pain on turn 4 (more so now that it can transform into the new Deathwing; turn 4 12/12 is no joke, see Trolden ep. 482 for examples!). And galakrond-quest-shaman-broke-my-game card being 6 is ok, but the important question is: is it safe to remove it's moniker now? Or playing them both still crashes the game? That was the actual pressing matter for this card!

@Battlegrounds:
No more amalgam is interesting, as it forces players to run menagerie strategies the hard way (picking three or four good tribe minions early, then rotating buffs; possibly giving Crowd Favorite a bump). I see that as a good thing, because even after the last round of changes menagerie was still very good, not so much now that there's no amalgam. Couple it with the push towards late game for murlocs, making that strategy more likely to fail early on, and we're in fertile soil for meta changes. Coldlight Seer was an early force multiplier for murloc, but not anymore and I'm happy for it. But still I think they should actually remove Primalfin, as discovery is too much in this format.
At least I'm back to 6100, Yogg be praised! \o/

Now to read the actual patch notes!

[Zevox]

I swear I thought it was the Brann minion for a sec...

I know, I had the same thought. And honestly, while I'd prefer him moved to tier 6, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if they just took him out.

[Eurus]

I think I like the changes, even with no Bagurgle nerf the Lookout nerf is big. I really want them to put some dang dragons in though.

[Geno9999]

I think the Mogu Fleshshaper nerf will have the biggest impact, being able to take out a minion and then cheat out a 8-drop with mutate, all for the low cost of 1 or 2 mana has been one of the biggest factors for Shaman having an edge on Aggro decks.

Corrupt Elementalist is still very strong, if only because of the Double Invoke makes it hilariously easy to upgrade Galakrond and get Dragon's Pack ready, but I guess it makes it harder to curve into the latter. Had it been this by itself, I don't think it's enough, but with the other chippings at Shaman's early game control probably just pulls Galakrond Shaman from Tier 0 down to Tier 1.

Sludge Slurper... I'm really puzzled too, but I guess it helps with the early game? Especially when it rolls into a Titanic or Goblin Lackey?

Faceless Corrupter is still top tier, but I'm most surprised by that they didn't hit the text too, since it still has the potential to make infinite Shudderwocks with Barista Lynchen. I guess they figured it was harder to curve into?

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't give it the Saronite Chaingang treatment. "Transform a friendly minion into a 4/4 with Rush" or some such.

[Joran]

I also thought they removed Brann the minion from Battlegrounds, not Brann the Hero.

I'm surprised they just totally removed the Amalgam rather than nerf the stats to the 1/1 token or create like a random 2/2 amalgam or move Amalgam up to tier 3. As mentioned before, this means that two of the Menagerie battlecries don't have a target to hit, which is weird.

The 3/4 amalgam was an instant pick on tier 2, so at least now there's some thinking involved.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'm surprised they just totally removed the Amalgam rather than nerf the stats to the 1/1 token or create like a random 2/2 amalgam or move Amalgam up to tier 3. As mentioned before, this means that two of the Menagerie battlecries don't have a target to hit, which is weird.

I think they removed Amalgam to dehomogenize the way people played - as long as any Amalgam was available early to mid game, everyone would still build it up into a large poisonous divine shield taunt minion, due to its very nature. The slight delay or stat drop wouldn't really matter except for the very early game.

[Requizen]

So played a bit after nerfs went out and first 3 games were against Deathrattle Rogue lul. Probably will be stuck dealing with this for a while.

Shaman is still good, but there's some planned decrease in power in the deck when the rotation hits and they lose Shudderwock among other things.

[Zevox]

I think they removed Amalgam to dehomogenize the way people played - as long as any Amalgam was available early to mid game, everyone would still build it up into a large poisonous divine shield taunt minion, due to its very nature. The slight delay or stat drop wouldn't really matter except for the very early game.

Eh, it's an exaggeration to say that the way people played was homogenized by it. Sure, if you got an Amalgam you took it and buffed it, but you tended to get only one, two if you were lucky, and the rest of your build was always varied depending on what you got offered. And you didn't always get Amalgam at all, either.

Honestly, I think the bigger impact will be by putting the different tribes into sharper contrast with each other, and possibly make Defender of Argus a bit more valuable. Amalgam was the only way to get Divine Shield on a Beast or Demon (besides George's hero power), the only way to get poison on Demon or Mech (or Beast that isn't Maexxna), and an obvious choice for your taunt minion regardless of your build since it could gain that from Annoy-o-Module or Houndmaster. Now we have:
- Murlocs get Poisonous relatively early, Divine Shield late via Megasaur, but no taunt unless off Megasaur, which gives them all taunt.
- Mechs get a lot of Divine Shield and plenty of taunt options, but no poisonous.
- Beasts can pick taunts via Houndmaster, but only have Maexxna for poison, and no Divine Shield at all.
- Demons get neither Divine Shield nor poison, though they do get a lot of taunt.

Also, as mentioned before, it really hurts Menagerie, since now it needs to pick individual members of each tribe and can't substitute an Amalgam for ones that are weaker (*coughDemonscough*) or just weren't offered good choices on, plus Menagerie Magician and Zoobot are down one-third of their buffing power for them.