Creating a Crusader/Master of 9

[Master O'Laughs]

Spoiler: quoted text

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Mettle is nice to have. It's not a necessity. It works on a subset of spells (most prolific of which is probably the Inflict/Harm-line, but also Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Maw of Chaos, etc.) - in some cases, it has a rather significant impact, such as negating the subsequent damage from Maw of Chaos (you'll always take the first damage as that's what procs the save). FWIW if it's Mettle specifically that you're interested in, Pious Templar [Complete Divine] gets it on level 1. It would actually probably be just fine an option as a 2-4 level dip (level 4 gives you the bonus feat to make up for the prerequisite Weapon Focus, though you can cover that Weapon Focus prerequisite with Swordsage's Discipline Focus), though it does give you few Paladin spells. It would even give you an extra use of your Smite on level 2 (and Weapon Specialisation on level 3 for what it's worth).

Whether you'd be better off with more Swordsage, that really depends. Precisely on what you want to do. More Crusader, less Swordsage would get you 9th level maneuvers first as well as more BAB, some delayed damage pool/furious counterstrike and few random useful class features. Of these the most significant is the ability to quickly reach higher level maneuvers and the ability to trade away lower level Crusader maneuvers for higher level ones. Stances are also pretty nice: 8th level stances feature a lot of standouts (such as Immortal Fortitude and Stance of Alacrity).

More Swordsage would get you a lot more lower level maneuvers (behind a worse recovery method, but with how many maneuvers you know, your need to recover the secondary SS maneuvers would most likely be rather low - the only real exception are irreplaceable maneuvers like the "Use Concentration instead of save" in DM; those can't fail). You'd have to hit Swordsage 4 to start trading maneuvers; below that point the actual numeric advantage is rather minor. It also provides some nice Wis-based class features if you happen to have Wis (Insightful Strikes for Wis to Damage on strikes is real nice with full attack strikes like Avalanche of Blades [Diamond Mind], Time Stands Still [Diamond Mind], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Flashing Sun [Desert Wind] and company) but again, that would require that you have Wis. Swordsage also complements saves nicely and unarmed swordsage advances your unarmed strikes. Actually hitting Evasion would require a lot of levels in SS to the point of implausibility.


For most levels, I'd say 2-4 levels of SS is the max you'd want to take anyways. It pays to focus on Crusader particularly if you're already going deep and further adding Master of Nine. Swordsage is good for prerequisites but comparatively doesn't add that much for the remaining levels and draws you in a slightly different direction. If possible, I'd take the first Swordsage level on level 9 or later so you can pick 3rd level maneuvers from it (3rd level has a lot of the really good maneuvers). Again, all the best stuff and the stuff you wish to use repeatedly though, I'd definitely put into Crusader list since that list recovers without needing an action (Extra Granted Maneuver is quite the must in this case though; but you should take it anyways).

Okay so if dropping Hellreaver, you would suggest something like Crusader 8 > Swordsage 2 (for wis to AC and mithral breastplate)> Mo9 1?

Would the swordsage handbook be good info for choosing maneuvers? Anything it might recommend I should avoid?

And so I would be proficient in unarmed strikes from UA Swordsage if my target gets within 5' of me and use a Guisarme normally?

Is thicket of blades still a good go to stance if I am not focusing on tripping?

Also, what would Attribute priority look like? STR>CON>DEX>CHA>WIS>INT ???

[Eldariel]

Okay so if dropping Hellreaver, you would suggest something like Crusader 8 > Swordsage 2 (for wis to AC and mithral breastplate)> Mo9 1?

Unarmed Swordsage doesn't get armored Wis to AC (or probably shouldn't get, since it loses armor proficiencies) so in that sense it isn't that much of an improvement though it's of course fine if your DM rules that the ability doesn't change and you get Wis in light armor anyways (look into Celestial Armor in that case). That said, two levels of Swordsage is nice in that you get two stances, a ton of maneuvers, the weapon focus, improved unarmed strike, and even Quick to Act (and a nice buff to Will and Ref save).

Would the swordsage handbook be good info for choosing maneuvers? Anything it might recommend I should avoid?

Well, it's a good starting point. Refer to Crusader and Warblade handbooks as well. Though while picking SS maneuvers, keep in mind that they're generally lower level and thus especially use them for prerequisites for stuff you intend to take with Mo9 levels (particularly important for schools Crusader can't access if you want maneuvers from them. Those schools are Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw). Though useful low-level stuff such as Counter Charge is also nice to have. Of Iron Heart, I think you still want Iron Heart Surge even if you take nothing else (though you have to burn two Mo9 maneuvers on it, which really sucks but Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge are both really good and worth knowing so it's not a bad investment).

And so I would be proficient in unarmed strikes from UA Swordsage if my target gets within 5' of me and use a Guisarme normally?

That's still fine.

Is thicket of blades still a good go to stance if I am not focusing on tripping?

If you have a reach it's a fine stance. However, as a Mo9 you definitely want an access to an array of stances, to make use of your Dual Stance (Leading the Charge, some detection stance such as Hearing the Air or Hunter's Sense [enables tracking too], Aura of Perfect Order, Stance of Alacrity and Immortal Fortitude at least are worth knowing, offering somewhat unique effects - Roots of the Mountain, Pressing the Advantage and Pearl of Black Doubt are some other options worth mentioning). Even without focus on it, tripping can be good, and free attacks from reach are always good. You can also just go the much shorter Combat Reflexes > Stand Still route for area control (or even just Stand Still - you have Rapid Counter [Diamond Mind 5] and your default AoO to work with even without Combat Reflexes so you can do a decent job controlling space). Of course, you could also dip two levels in Monk or Barbarian (depending on whether you want to go Lawful or Neutral/Chaotic) for the Improved Trip anyways if you want to combine these two options; you have the class levels to work with without compromising your 9th level maneuvers this way.

Also, what would Attribute priority look like? STR>CON>DEX>CHA>WIS>INT ???

That seems fine to me, but you can work with a lot of different comboes. Charisma is nice but not necessary. Dex too; you can use heavy armor if need be. Str and Con are obviously paramount and everything else is nice to have.

[Master O'Laughs]

So I have been trying to go through the handbooks and figure what would be best to pick. This is what I have so far, any suggestions on improvements?

Spoiler: Maneuvers

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C.L1 - Crusader’s Strike (DS)
C.L1 - Vanguard Strike (DS)
C.L1 - Charging Minotaur (SD)
C.L1 - Douse the Flame (WR)
C.L1 - Leading the Attack (WR)
C.L3 - Mountain Hammer (SD)
C.L4 - Battle Leader’s Charge (WR)
C.L5 - White Raven Tactics (WR)
C.L6 - Defensive Rebuke (DS)
C.L7 - Revitalizing Strike (DS)
C.L8 - Covering Strike (WR)
SS.L9 - Flashing Sun (DW)
SS.L9 - Zephyr Dance(DW)
SS.L9 - Emerald Razor (DM)
SS.L9 - Mind Over Body (DM)
SS.L9 - Shadow Jaunt (SH)
SS.L9 - Claw at the Moon (TC)
SS.L10 - Soaring Raptor Strike (TC)
M9.L11 -
M9.L11 -

The strike-through maneuvers are the ones traded out at 4, 6,& 8 though I am not sure if I picked good ones to drop. I kept charging Minotaur since I am trying to get shock trooper.

Spoiler: Stances

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C.L1 - Iron Guard’s Glare (DS)
C.L2 - Leading the Charge (WR)
C.L8 - Thicket of Blades (DS)
SS.L9 - Dance of the Spider (SH)
SS.L10 - Pearl of Black Redoubt (DM)

I am not sure on what to pick for the Mo9 level. Also, do I want my initiative as low as possible so White Raven Tactics can allow more double turns or would I be better off keeping it high so I could always delay my turn and use it then?

For flaws, I current have Vulnerable (-1 AC) and I am looking for 1 more.

Is it worth dipping maybe 2 levels of monk for Overwhelming attack style? This would get me Power attack and Improved bullrush and allow me to get shock trooper and Mo9 by level 11.

[Eldariel]

White Raven Tactics

Functionally it's one and the same whether your Initiative is high or low for WRT. You can always delay if you want to double up on an ally's turn this turn. But moving an ally ahead of the enemy in initiative often accomplishes the same thing as doubling up on their turn afterwards. Observe:

21 - You
6 - Orc
5 - Bud

You act, WRT pal.

R1:
21 - You
20 - Bud
6 - Orc

R2:
21 - You
20 - Bud
6 - Orc

Bud acts twice before the Orc's second turn (but there's a difference between acting twice in a row of course; you can move up, attack and execute a full-round with two consecutive turns but the Orc would have the chance to move away otherwise).

If you had...for instance:

18 - Orc
14 - Bud
13 - You

WRT and Bud acts twice after the Orc. As before, your bud gets two actions before the Orc's second action.

Now, the situation where you do need to delay is when:
18 - Orc
14 - You
13 - Bud

In this case WRT literally does nothing as written but just delay to until after your ally has acted and you can WRT just fine.


TL;DR: Maximize your initiative. You can always delay. Raising it is harder (though there's Moment of Alacrity in Diamond Mind).


Maneuvers

Those look fine. You've been careful enough with the overlap so you're covering various niches. I definitely think one maneuver you're lacking is Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw. My personal preferred start into Tiger Claw is Rabid Wolf Strike > Sudden Leap. Being able to hit with a +4 bonus is occasionally quite useful, doubly so if you have Power Attack, and it gets you into the school nicely and opens up taking Sudden Leap. That in turn is the first repositioning maneuver in the game and being able to move 10' as a swift action on a character with 3 attacks on a full round attack (plus Flashing Sun for 4, potential Haste for 5) is really nice. Of course, it would be nice to take Sudden Leap for your Crusader maneuvers but sadly that's not really in the cards without sacrificing a Mo9 maneuver.

Setting Sun has a lot of cool stuff though, but your current choices make perfect sense as well. I'm personally a big fan of Counter Charge too, though you seem like you plan to simply facetank through stuff so you might not need it.


Like I said, I think that while you'd want to go around grabbing all the awesome 5th level maneuvers right now, it might be prudent to pick up Wall of Blades > Iron Heart Surge at Mo9 1. It's just such a powerful catch-all answer to getting afflicted with anything from Blindness to Antimagic Field. And Wall of Blades is a great counter to have; it scales great and makes a good complement for Zephyr Dance.

That said, 5th level maneuvers contain the likes of Disrupting Blow [Diamond Mind]/Dazing Strike [Iron Heart] (basically the same maneuver - some of the better save-or-X effects in ToB), Radiant Charge [Devoted Spirit], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Dancing Mongoose [Tiger Claw] (raw damage, just a pure extra hit) & co. so it's an investment. But potentially a worthwhile one. On level 12 you could then pick up a 6th level maneuver (Moment of Alacrity, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos [one of the few ways to make use of your Move Actions], War Leader's Charge) and a 5th level stance or a 6th level one (Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Aura of Perfect Order, Press the Advantage are all strong). In short, you have a lot of good options. Tons of different charges in particular, so just pick the one you like the best; don't waste all your maneuvers known on a bunch of broadly similar charges when you only plan on using one anyways.

One key note about Shifting Defense (I know you don't plan on Setting Sun, but just in case), the actual rules text states that you can move 5' each time an opponent attacks you, which is substantially stronger than the table description of "move once every time an enemy misses you". If you have a lot of Strength, some of the Setting Sun throws are also pretty nice on a Strength-focused character as ways to displace the opponent and put them prone while dealing some damage (a good way to get them off your squishies and to enable your other beaters, such as the Druid and their companion, to deal some damage).


EDIT: And note that you got Counter Stance on level 12. This means you don't need to spend an action switching your stances so you have much more options in the sense of picking specialised stances you only want occasionally; just Counter anything and you can pick your preferred stance as a free action. Pearl of Black Doubt, Shifting Defense, Iron Guard's Glare, etc. are all good options for stuff you can use against various types of opponents (though Pearl of Black Doubt and Shifting Defense are both something to use against enemies with tons of attacks so in that sense knowing both is a bit redundant; Shifting Defense is less reliant on your AC than Pearl of Black Doubt though). Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph is nice to have for when people are hurt enough to warrant them but each stance known is of course an investment and you only get some.

I personally quite like having Pearl of Black Doubt & Iron Guard's Glare for Dual Stance: one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" where they're disincentivized from attacking your but also have trouble attacking your teammates. Pearl of Black Doubt obviously goes beautifully with Zephyr Dance/Wall of Blades to start stacking the AC bonus.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Arms & Equipment Guide has Sparring Dummy of the Master that officially only works for Monks but might be reasonable for Unarmed Swordsages too. It allows you to train for a week to start taking 10' steps instead of 5' steps. This can also be accomplished with a DC40 Tumble check [Oriental Adventures]. Why bring this up? Well, add Press the Advantage and you're suddenly taking 20' steps! This basically means you no longer need move/swift actions to move as you can dance around the battlefield just fine with just your adjustments. Of course, many strikes are a standard action leaving you with a free move action. Some ways to use those include the Fearsome armor property [Drow of the Underdark] to get Move Action Intimidation and the mentioned Order Forged from Chaos to keep your teammates moving aroudn.

[Master O'Laughs]

Maneuvers

Those look fine. You've been careful enough with the overlap so you're covering various niches. I definitely think one maneuver you're lacking is Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw. My personal preferred start into Tiger Claw is Rabid Wolf Strike > Sudden Leap. Being able to hit with a +4 bonus is occasionally quite useful, doubly so if you have Power Attack, and it gets you into the school nicely and opens up taking Sudden Leap. That in turn is the first repositioning maneuver in the game and being able to move 10' as a swift action on a character with 3 attacks on a full round attack (plus Flashing Sun for 4, potential Haste for 5) is really nice. Of course, it would be nice to take Sudden Leap for your Crusader maneuvers but sadly that's not really in the cards without sacrificing a Mo9 maneuver.

I like your reasoning and have swapped those two for the other Tiger Claw maneuvers I had chosen (I was just grasping at straws with those really).

Setting Sun has a lot of cool stuff though, but your current choices make perfect sense as well. I'm personally a big fan of Counter Charge too, though you seem like you plan to simply facetank through stuff so you might not need it.

I actually don't really like Zephyr Dance after thinking about it. Since you do not know if it will work or not, I like the more active Counter Charge from SS better even though it is more situational. As a whole, would you say Desert Wind or Setting Sun will have better higher level maneuvers for me? What would be things to look at in particular to grab with Mo9?

Like I said, I think that while you'd want to go around grabbing all the awesome 5th level maneuvers right now, it might be prudent to pick up Wall of Blades > Iron Heart Surge at Mo9 1. It's just such a powerful catch-all answer to getting afflicted with anything from Blindness to Antimagic Field. And Wall of Blades is a great counter to have; it scales great and makes a good complement for Zephyr Dance.

That said, 5th level maneuvers contain the likes of Disrupting Blow [Diamond Mind]/Dazing Strike [Iron Heart] (basically the same maneuver - some of the better save-or-X effects in ToB), Radiant Charge [Devoted Spirit], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Dancing Mongoose [Tiger Claw] (raw damage, just a pure extra hit) & co. so it's an investment. But potentially a worthwhile one. On level 12 you could then pick up a 6th level maneuver (Moment of Alacrity, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos [one of the few ways to make use of your Move Actions], War Leader's Charge) and a 5th level stance or a 6th level one (Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Aura of Perfect Order, Press the Advantage are all strong). In short, you have a lot of good options. Tons of different charges in particular, so just pick the one you like the best; don't waste all your maneuvers known on a bunch of broadly similar charges when you only plan on using one anyways.

There seems like there are too many good options to choose from. Pouncing Charge seems like something I should really take if I plan on getting shock trooper/leap attack right?

Also, the preventing the actions of a bad dude seems really nice.

One key note about Shifting Defense (I know you don't plan on Setting Sun, but just in case), the actual rules text states that you can move 5' each time an opponent attacks you, which is substantially stronger than the table description of "move once every time an enemy misses you". If you have a lot of Strength, some of the Setting Sun throws are also pretty nice on a Strength-focused character as ways to displace the opponent and put them prone while dealing some damage (a good way to get them off your squishies and to enable your other beaters, such as the Druid and their companion, to deal some damage).

Since tripping seems like it will only be useful part of the time due to the likelihood of facing large demons, I think that may be why I shied away from Setting Sun. The throws do seem really cool but not as useful as some of the other things.

EDIT: And note that you got Counter Stance on level 12. This means you don't need to spend an action switching your stances so you have much more options in the sense of picking specialized stances you only want occasionally; just Counter anything and you can pick your preferred stance as a free action. Pearl of Black Doubt, Shifting Defense, Iron Guard's Glare, etc. are all good options for stuff you can use against various types of opponents (though Pearl of Black Doubt and Shifting Defense are both something to use against enemies with tons of attacks so in that sense knowing both is a bit redundant; Shifting Defense is less reliant on your AC than Pearl of Black Doubt though). Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph is nice to have for when people are hurt enough to warrant them but each stance known is of course an investment and you only get some.

I personally quite like having Pearl of Black Doubt & Iron Guard's Glare for Dual Stance: one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" where they're disincentivized from attacking your but also have trouble attacking your teammates. Pearl of Black Doubt obviously goes beautifully with Zephyr Dance/Wall of Blades to start stacking the AC bonus.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Arms & Equipment Guide has Sparring Dummy of the Master that officially only works for Monks but might be reasonable for Unarmed Swordsages too. It allows you to train for a week to start taking 10' steps instead of 5' steps. This can also be accomplished with a DC40 Tumble check [Oriental Adventures]. Why bring this up? Well, add Press the Advantage and you're suddenly taking 20' steps! This basically means you no longer need move/swift actions to move as you can dance around the battlefield just fine with just your adjustments. Of course, many strikes are a standard action leaving you with a free move action. Some ways to use those include the Fearsome armor property [Drow of the Underdark] to get Move Action Intimidation and the mentioned Order Forged from Chaos to keep your teammates moving around.

10' to 20' steps do sound crazy awesome.

Another question I thought about is it Shadow Jaunt worth one of my Swordsage choices? Since the other teleportation maneuvers do not have any requirements besides IL. Should I just grab them at a later time? I am thinking if I come back to swordsage for 2 more levels later.

[Eldariel]

I actually don't really like Zephyr Dance after thinking about it. Since you do not know if it will work or not, I like the more active Counter Charge from SS better even though it is more situational. As a whole, would you say Desert Wind or Setting Sun will have better higher level maneuvers for me? What would be things to look at in particular to grab with Mo9?

I really like Setting Sun, but there's some personal bias here. Desert Wind kinda runs afoul of the fact that many Outsiders in particular are often resistant or immune to fire. Flashing Sun is definitely worth knowing (all the way up until you get Time Stands Still) and Flame's Blessing is a really nice stance, but above that point there are few enough great maneuvers if the enemy has fire resistance (Leaping Flame is nice but very situational, as is Desert Tempest - that's' about it).

Setting Sun has some great counters: notably Scorpion Parry (much like Manticore Parry), Fool's Strike (even better, never at a loss for target) & Mirrored Pursuit (a caster/archer tries to 5' step away or withdraw? How about "Nope"). Feigned Opening isn't bad either. Hydra Slaying Strike isn't bad in melee combat either (though of course, using it denies you a full attack as well so it's a matter of hitting harder). The throws can be nice, particularly if you ever take Improved Trip. The effect is really potent if they're a bit harder to pull off; but Trip-check is a straight Strength- (or Dex-)check and with +4 from the maneuver coupled with +4 from Improved Trip makes you extremely favored against anything you can trip. If you get Enlarge Personed (or just ask your DM; technically throws don't restrict the size of the opponent you can get a Trip attempt against), you can trip enemies up to Huge size with reliability and there are hardly any demons above that category.


Basically, Setting Sun has the Throws (Tornado Throw is absolutely incredible if you have high movement speed; one of the few ways to turn movement speed into an effective and a ton of rather good counters. If you have Stance of Alacrity, as you should when you can pick it up (plan out your Mo9 levels so that you can pick it up as your second stance), those counters are probably really nice to have (though Iron Heart has some of the good ones too).

There seems like there are too many good options to choose from. Pouncing Charge seems like something I should really take if I plan on getting shock trooper/leap attack right?

Also, the preventing the actions of a bad dude seems really nice.

You'll get White Raven Hammer a bit later which has no save, making those two maneuvers nice but not absolutely necessary (though again, Str-based save = a fair chance of failure and Daze is a better condition than Stunned in that there are fewer immune things). Oh yeah, I made a mistake: there's a huge difference between Disrupting Blow and Dazing Strike, Dazing Strike is a Fort-save, while Disrupting Blow is a Will-save. This makes Disrupting Blow much better since the enemies you might want to use it against are likely to have much higher Fort than Will.

And yeah, unless you get Pounce through another means (which means you can pick up any charging maneuver and don't need Pouncing Charge), Pouncing Charge is more or less a must-have. Though be a bit careful about splattering everything: Leading the Charge + Pouncing Charge with Shock Trooper can do absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage (especially if coupled with a charge multiplier such as Valorous weapon [Unapproachable East]), which can be a problem if the table is low optimisation.

Since tripping seems like it will only be useful part of the time due to the likelihood of facing large demons, I think that may be why I shied away from Setting Sun. The throws do seem really cool but not as useful as some of the other things.

Their effects are absolutely superb, it's just the Trip-check that's tricky but again, a Trip-check is a straight Strength-check (BAB doesn't factor into it), which favours PC and it's a flat check you can get vast multipliers on (+8 from Improved Trip and Throw maneuver is equivalent to two size categories), enabling you to actually use it against enemies one size larger than you (Large without anything or Huge with Enlarge Person) with rather decent chances of success if your strength is tipped off.

10' to 20' steps do sound crazy awesome.

Another question I thought about is it Shadow Jaunt worth one of my Swordsage choices? Since the other teleportation maneuvers do not have any requirements besides IL. Should I just grab them at a later time? I am thinking if I come back to swordsage for 2 more levels later.

Having a teleport available is nice but you could indeed just pick up Shadow Blink since that's the one you're the most likely to use. Depends on how much the party helps you too, but it's nice to be able to teleport on your own. You'll probably want Quicksilver Motion from Diamond Mind anyways (it not only allows moving as a swift action, but taking a move action, which means it enables using stuff like Fearsome Armor or Order Forged From Chaos too), so there's some redundancy, but teleportation is good enough that it can still be worth having that maneuver.

Though I would probably just space out Mo9 levels to get the maneuvers you want since your SS initiator level is going to be significantly lower (though Mo9 counts fully towards it so with SS 2/Mo9 5 you would have 7 levels of full advancement and the rest as half advancement), but it's not out of the question to take more Swordsage either.


Far as items go, if you take Iron Heart Surge, I strongly recommend Feathered Wings Graft [Fiend Folio]. Seems kinda appropriate for your character and it's pretty awesome; cheap, permanent, extraordinary flight. You can make sure you don't get corrupt thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind never failing and Iron Heart Surge getting rid of any lingering problems. Goes great with Boots of Speed; your landspeed becomes 60' improving your flight speed and then you get further +30' to your flight speed for 90' flight when the Haste effect is active.

[Master O'Laughs]

How many Level 9 maneuvers should I realistically aim for? This would dictate how soon I take levels in Mo9, no?

Looking at Crusader, It seems like I will only get 3 stances from it since Crusader 14 is out from UAS 2 and Mo9 5, but with the current progression, I get Thicket of blades at Crusader 8. So it looks like I will need to take the Martial Stance Feat in order to obtain Aura of Triumph, Immortal Fortitude, and Stance of Alacrity?

To better plan out progression and stances, what would be the ideal level progression? DM made it sound like lvl 20 is a likely possibility and even EPIC levels could happen.

Cru 1-8/UAS 1-2/Mo9 1/Cru 9/Mo9 2/Cru 10-11/Mo9 3-5/Cru 12-13
This would get me Strike of Righteous Vitality, War Master's Charge, Strike of Perfect Clarity, and Time Stands still.

If I change the order so it ends Cru 10-13/Mo9 3-5; I get access to 1 additional lvl 9 Maneuver (if I can qualify) which would most be either Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, or Five-shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (though the last one seems least likely to qualify for since I only plan on having 1 stance and maybe 1 teleport).

[Eldariel]

First, don't bother with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Diamond Nightmare Blade is similar and largely better for two-handers (since you can multiply Power Attack and similar). Concentration is mostly a formality since you're maxing it for other maneuvers anyways and skills outscale everything else. All you need is 33 base damage to match Strike of Perfect Clarity and 2d4 weapon + 5 weapon + 12 Str x 1.5 is already 28. If you're Enlarged you get +3. Collision weapon would be +5 more, Power Attack can offer substantial bonuses, class features like Furious Counterstrike or Insightul Strike (let alone Mastery of the Nine) add a lot, etc. In general, Diamond Nightmare Blade matches outperforms Strike of Perfect Clarity most of the time.

I'll respond to the leveling questions later when I have more time but in short, yes, taking Mo9 as late as possible is eventually optimal.

[Eldariel]

Okay, now the broader answer to your leveling question.

Yes, it's true that the later you take Mo9 the more high level maneuvers you can grab. Crusader is sorta competitive, since you can trade away maneuvers but with the access to all the schools and getting multiple maneuvers on multiple levels, Mo9 obviously outperforms Crusader in that regard. That said, Mo9 class features (particularly Counter Stance, Dual Stance and Mastery of the Nine) are really nice and postponing Mo9 for more high level maneuvers also postpones those. So it's kinda "be strong now or be stronger later"-kinda deal. Since you have to play through these levels and these levels are where the caster/martial disparity begins to grow, maximizing your current strength seems important. However, if you're going into epic and want to be doing much at all, maximizing your pre-epic strength is even more key.

Thus I recommend asking about retraining. You could play Crusader 8/UASS 2/Mo9 5 now and then take some more levels of Crusader and retrain down the line into Crusader 8/UASS 2/Crusader X/Mo9 5. That would be the optimal option since it gets you the best of both worlds. Provided your DM doesn't let that fly though, I'd err towards taking most of Mo9 later, perhaps with the first two levels early (since you can get a worthwhile stance and the awesome Counter Stance).


Btw, one more maneuver I have to highlight is Greater Divine Surge. It's kind of a weird one but it's just about the only means you have to surpass your limits and hit above your paygrade. Now, the downside of taking a billion Con damage sucks but once you have Strike of Righteous Vitality, that's easy enough to fix. I once used a Greater Divine Surge specialised Mo9 in a Gestalt Warrior Arena to great effect. Just tank everything and go for that one last blow. Then heal up if that doesn't work.

[Master O'Laughs]

Btw, one more maneuver I have to highlight is Greater Divine Surge. It's kind of a weird one but it's just about the only means you have to surpass your limits and hit above your pay grade. Now, the downside of taking a billion Con damage sucks but once you have Strike of Righteous Vitality, that's easy enough to fix. I once used a Greater Divine Surge specialized Mo9 in a Gestalt Warrior Arena to great effect. Just tank everything and go for that one last blow. Then heal up if that doesn't work.

Quick reply: So if I had a belt of battle and saved 2 charges for a standard action I could use greater divine surge, take CON damage = IL and do an extra 30d8 damage+ and then just heal it back with Strike of Righteous Vitality.... AWESOME!!!!

[Eldariel]

Quick reply: So if I had a belt of battle and saved 2 charges for a standard action I could use greater divine surge, take CON damage = IL and do an extra 30d8 damage+ and then just heal it back with Strike of Righteous Vitality.... AWESOME!!!!

Not just Belt of Battle; if you space it out right you can also do this with e.g. Moment of Alacrity, or if DM allows self-use of White Raven Tactics, that also works. The best part about the maneuver is the "to hit"-bonus though. It's one of the few ways to actually hit something with AC = 20+your to hit bonus with some reliability (goes nicely with Aura of Perfect Order too to guarantee a decent roll on the hit roll). And against more mundane enemies you can couple it with Power Attack for...howevermuch BAB you've got and probably still land your attack.

[Master O'Laughs]

Okay so I have been a little busy but I talked with my DM and he said he is willing to allow me to take a homebrew feat to allow me to switch out maneuvers like a sorcerer does spells at each level.

He said I just need to give him the text for it and he will think up reasonable pre-reqs for it.

Would this free me up to go Cru 8/UAS 2/Mo9 5? Would I be able to get enough swaps at IL9 to get all the goodies I could want?

How should the base mechanics of the feat be worded?

[Eldariel]

Crusader (and other ToB classes) already have some language that enables them to trade maneuvers much as Sorcs can trade spells (every even level). If this were in addition to that and every level (without the "max. 2 levels lower"-restriction), then yeah, it could work out. The wording could be something like:

"Benefit: Whenever you take a level in a class that [fully progresses initiator level/grants maneuvers known/whatever way to identify initiator classes], you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for."

Thanks to maneuvers having qualifications, you really don't need to worry about the maneuver level too much; the qualifications already ensure that you need to know many lower level maneuvers (and many of them are good enough to keep all the way anyways).

[Master O'Laughs]

How does this sound?

Martial Flexibility

Your extensive training has allowed you to gain insight into a wide array of disciplines.

Prerequisite
TBD by DM

Benefit
Whenever you take a level in a class that fully progresses initiator level, you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for from the same source.

(this would allow swapping out maneuvers from Swordsage later on for better ones)

[Eldariel]

How does this sound?

Martial Flexibility

Your extensive training has allowed you to gain insight into a wide array of disciplines.

Prerequisite
TBD by DM

Benefit
Whenever you take a level in a class that fully progresses initiator level, you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for from the same source.

(this would allow swapping out maneuvers from Swordsage later on for better ones)

Sure, that sounds fine to me.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd make Martial Study a prerequisite, because otherwise it's basically just 'better Martial Study' for an initiator class.

Also maybe clarify "from the same source". Although on second thought, I can't come up with a better way of saying that that doesn't have some major loopholes/problems.

[Master O'Laughs]

I'd make Martial Study a prerequisite, because otherwise it's basically just 'better Martial Study' for an initiator class.

Also maybe clarify "from the same source". Although on second thought, I can't come up with a better way of saying that that doesn't have some major loopholes/problems.

That would make a lot of sense, using Martial Study as a pre-req, and I won't be mad if my DM makes that determination on his own but I already have a ton of feats I need to acquire for Master of 9.

I appreciate the feedback though.

[Master O'Laughs]

So thinking about the swordsage manuevers, I realized I will only ever have 4 available at a time so I am better off using them for situational utility.

SS.L9 - Flashing Sun (DW)
SS.L9 - Zephyr Dance(DW)***
SS.L9 - Action Before Thought (DM)**
SS.L9 - Mind Over Body (DM)**
SS.L9 - Shadow Jaunt (SH)***
SS.L9 - Rapid Wolf Strike (TC)
SS.L10 - Sudden Leap (TC)***

Above are what maneuvers I planned on taking and what levels. The asterisks signifying which would be readied.

The exception is the Diamond mind maneuvers which could be switched between depending on what I am facing(???). Is Action before thought worth it or the Will save choice better?

My worst Save will most likely be reflex but that typically governs damage rec'd which I am not too worried about. Next would be Fort. Should I just always prepare Mind Over Body in the instance of a scary fort save?

[Eldariel]

Mind over Body is probably the most useful one since you have Cha to Will also, but all of them are frankly worth knowing, particularly since you'll have Adaptive Style anyways. Will > Fort > Ref in terms of importance: Will kills you and makes you an enemy, Fort just kills you, Ref generally deals a lot of damage potentially killing you but it's the least likely of the bunch to be lethal since there are other defenses.