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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Personally, I really like the spell. However it can be abused for some ridiculous effects. For example, say you have a Circle of the Shepard 6 / Life Cleric 1 who casts this spell and has their Unicorn Spirit Aura up.

    That second level spell will do 10d6+100 points of healing to a single person due to Disciple of Life adding 4 hp to the healing spell and the Unicorn aura adding the Druid's level to that healing every time a person steps through it. And that isn't even counting the fact that each time one person heals from Healing Spirit, the Druid can choose to heal everyone in the Unicorn Spirit's aura by a number equal to their level.

    So in a party of even just three people, you get to add an extra 180 hp to the 100 before since every round three people are being healed by a second level spell, so each round you can give everyone, including yourself and whoever you healed, +6 hp per person who enters Healing Spirit.

    That is equal to a long rest, and far better then a short rest, at the cost of 1 minute and a short rest ability. Of course the hp lowers to just 10d6+40 if you don't add in the Sheppard Druid's spirit aura, but still. 10d6+40 for 1 minute is gonna average about healing 75 hp, that's still more then enough to pick a party off their feet.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling for a nerf at all - I see this spell for what it is. I'm generalizing the reactions I see, as someone fairly new to this game, of folks who can't see past the rules text. I'm not a DM, but I can see the value of OOC conversations about how things are likely to play out (the fey creature idea is awesome, btw). The operative word is "play," so hold your lectures about being an adult.
    do you need to "RP" any other spells to make them balance?
    do you "RP" find familiar, fireball, conjure animals/fey/elementals?

    changing the spell to limit its effectiveness is nerfing the spell by definition, regardless of how the narrative is portrayed. it's not wrong or cheating, it's DMing to run a balanced, fun, challenging game.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-15 at 11:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    But "healer" builds already could be really strong!

    If you ever played with a life cleric/lore bard and saw them churn out 120 HP of healing with a third level spell, you would not call such a build weak. A straight life cleric pumping out their channel Divinity at key moments is not weak either. At high levels you can potentially heal 200 to 300 in a single burst spread out between 2 to 3 characters. Greatberry, when allowed, was extremely efficient out-of-combat. Even a simple rogue with inspiring leader and healer could really keep a party running longer than they had any right to. Healing people for 1d6 + 4 + their level + your level + CHA every time you have 11 minutes of downtime is no joke! At 10th level that'd be ~28 HP to the whole party between each fight for free.
    This. There's a big difference between a Tempest Cleric who decides to cast Cure Wounds one day, and an actual healer build. The actual healer builds were already good at healing before Healing Spirit showed up.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-04-15 at 11:19 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Healing Spirit trivializes a lot of content related to noncombat healing:
    • Goodberries
    • Cure Wounds
    • Hit Dice
    • Medicine checks
    • Song of Rest
    • Healer feat
    • Long Resting


    All for the cost of a level 2 spell. Unlike these other resources, Healing Spirit is unlimited in how much healing it can provide (when something like Hit Dice regain at a rate of 50% of your maximum HP every day).

    It's a lot like the Ranger's Favored Terrain, and it's effectively hated for the same reasons. It's a powerful ability that makes a lot of other content redundant or irrelevant.

    Or, put in another way, it makes the game smaller, simpler and worse.

    --------------

    Consider making a simple 1d8, one handed Reach weapon with Finesse. It's not much better than the Rapier, and deals less than most other one-handed or Reach weapons. However, consider how much of the weapon list people would ignore. How many builds it would wash away.

    Sure, you've added content, but you've erased more by doing so.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-04-15 at 12:56 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    OK, but if you're worried about the druid outshining someone else, that's a table conversation, not a ban-the-spell conversation.
    So what you're saying is, the spell is overpowered, makes the druid outshine others, and therefore I should talk to the druid about not using this spell to outshine others?

    ...Isn't that, like, the very definition of banning something?

    Edit: I guess it isn't, but a ban would actually be kinder to the player. In the instance where the player "just shouldn't outshine others" he's already built his character. He might have wanted to play a druid because he knew that he'd be an overpowered healer for a low cost. Now, by asking him to play nice, I'm ruining his build.

    If I had just banned it outright, he could have specced into some other good build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    OK, but that's kind of my point. Healing spirit doesn't do anything that rest mechanics can't. And again, that's a table conversation. If your table wants grittier realism, then they won't be taking this spell. In that case, everyone forgets it exists. And there have been quite a few comments on this thread by people that like the spell. I dunno guys, this doesn't seem broken to me. It seems like there are a lot of us lacking in imagination, but the spell seems fine. In any case, I think I have my answer.

    Thanks.
    Healing spirit does do things that the rest mechanics can't. If you don't see the utility of restoring more hp in a minute than a short rest heals in an hour, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the utility of healing as much in a minute as a long rest heals in 8 hours I really don't know what to tell you.

    I don't appreciate being told that I lack imagination. In what way am I lacking imagination?

    You say, "Other people say its fine," but that doesn't mean anything. Sure people say that. But they (and you) aren't actually addressing any of the complaints raised. HS does not break the game. It changes the game in a manner that is undesirable for many tables, and if the change is desirable, the spell should still be banned because it makes an entire archetype of build invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling for a nerf at all - I see this spell for what it is. I'm generalizing the reactions I see, as someone fairly new to this game, of folks who can't see past the rules text. I'm not a DM, but I can see the value of OOC conversations about how things are likely to play out (the fey creature idea is awesome, btw). The operative word is "play," so hold your lectures about being an adult.
    If you were just saying that "The spell is boring, here's a way to make it interesting," then sorry, I misunderstood you. But in my defense, you were answering a strawman. Nobody here has been arguing that the spell is bad because it's boring. Its a pretty interesting spell! The criticism that has been levied is that its overpowered.

    So when you said you were responding to criticism, I assumed you were responding to actual criticism, and not some straw man you had in your head.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-04-15 at 11:39 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    So I guess this is the crux of my problem - why is this bad? Long rests trivialize healing. So do the entire concept of hit points (unless you're using some of the optional DMG rules). I'm not bagging on 5e's rule design; I'm just asking why letting the PC's have access to healing is a problem. I have players that want to take a long rest (outside the dungeon) every time they have an encounter. I understand if you want your players to have to manage their resources carefully, but this seems a pretty straightforward exchange: spending a 2nd-level spell slot for hit points. There's a 3rd-level wizard spell that lets you take a 10 minute nap and have it count as a short rest (which is better than healing spirit due to resource reset). And yet this one spell needs to be nerfed? Seems very odd to me, and thus far all the strikes against it I've seen have been "it is a really good healing spell, and that's bull****."

    Why?
    Hi there,

    First of all, you might have noticed that you are getting appreciable amount of pushback. You might get defensive about that, and I want to point out some ways in which it is reasonable that you are getting it.
    Deliberately or not, you are telegraphing a type of behavior that can best be summed up as 'really wants to win'/'counterarguments are never enough.' I say this because your arguments keep changing, and are oftentimes inter-contradictory. The spell isn't a problem because your opponents can be prepared for it. Pushback. Okay, well now it is the opportunity cost. People are well aware of the opportunity cost? Well, okay, now it's still a healing spell so it can't be that big a deal. People point out that vastly increasing the value of healing magic is literally the problem? Okay, now the argument is that it is in fact a big deal, but but that big deal is a good thing (because it gives players a good option). I hope you understand why people might interpret this as you treating this thread more as a game to be won than a serious discussion. So I just want to double check-- this is your real argument, yes/no? It is a great healing magic, and it will be used, and it is a significant upgrade in what healing magic can do, but that's okay because you don't think that's a bad thing? Yes?

    Alright, if so, let's address this point.

    The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them. In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game. Expendable/depletable resources are the bread and butter of this game. Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is. Making that more trivial (and we can debate just how much a 2nd level slot for ~35 hp/party member actually is) changes the game*. It makes post-fight recovery easier (again, we can debate how much). DMs might press harder or players might take more risks with this in their back pocket. Counter-intuitively, the likelihood of character death (or TPK) might go up, since people tend to expend until they hit adversity and a significant intermediary adversity (struggling to keep hp near max between combats) has been reduced. This is a reasonable concern to weigh in the discussion of whether or not the addition of this spell (as written) is a net positive to the game.
    *for anyone where recovery is an issue. If this is already not an issue for your games, then this of course will not change it.

    As to the catnap spell, I just don't see it as that comparable. It does very different things. Short rests, in and of themselves, don't do any particular thing. If you have a bunch of SR-recharging abilities, HD to spend, or even cool SR-healing abilities like Healer feat or Inspiring Leader (pseudo-healing for that one, I guess), then by all means it too is a good resource to put into the discussion. I just don't see why they are so directly comparable.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Healing spirit does do things that the rest mechanics can't. If you don't see the utility of restoring more hp in a minute than a short rest heals in an hour, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the utility of healing as much in a minute as a long rest heals in 8 hours I really don't know what to tell you.
    as another example, Short Rest doesn't let you heal 8d6 in 2 rounds of combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    snip
    wow. this was polite and well done. i need to do this better.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-15 at 11:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    I don't consider this adversarial DMing. I consider this doing my job
    the thing is, and this is something very important in discussions about balance, that's a flawed reasoning. Now you're arguing "it's not broken because it's fixable".

    You can put a bucket under a leaking faucet - but that doesn't mean it isn't leaking.

    I've been DMming since before D&D 3.5. I can work around 4th levels that deal around 1000-5000d6 in a 9 mile radius (google Locate City Bomb), and mind you, 3.5's balance isn't that different from 5E that thousands of d6s mean anything else there then it does in 5E. Can I work around it? Yes, I can. Does that mean a 4th level spell should be able to do that? I hope you can agree, no. It really shouldn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    This feels like we're talking about stakes. A lot of the people here have been using hit points as a substitute for stakes, e.g., "If the party doesn't have a hit point tax during the dungeon, then the dungeon feels less dangerous. And if the dungeon feels less dangerous, then the stakes are lower." I would argue there's lots of ways to raise the stakes - hit points are just one. Again, use exhaustion. Give the bad guys casters who have counterspell or dispel magic. Have NPCs who are dependent on the outcome of the dungeon. Use traps that have a narrative arc. And when it comes right down to it, accept that your players are exchanging a hit point tax for a spell slot tax.
    The bolded is true.
    And it is also the moment you admit that, Healing Spirit is broken because Yes. There ARE other ways to raise takes - but it SHOUDN'T come to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Sure, you've added content, but you've erased more by doing so.
    great quote.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post

    Why is it a bad thing that a non-magical character specializing in healing is as good as a magical character who is not specialized in healing?
    It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telesphoros View Post
    Yup, one of 5E's drawbacks for me is every character has some type of healing and/or damage mitigation. 0 HP doesn't mean a lot anymore. Characters get so many HP, especially at higher levels. And should someone fail their death saving throws, they're pretty easy to bring back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.
    Compared to what? Nearly all of them are useful spells worth preparing.

    They're more a last resort than anything else, granted. A bard who just casts cure wounds over over isn't going to be very effective...

    But that's why you need to specialize. Take a level of life cleric. Use magical secrets to steal aura of vitality. Play a grave cleric to bring an unconscious ally back to full with one spell. Cast beacon of hope to make your healing spells worth casting in combat. Play a glamor bard to heal the whole party at once and move them.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-04-15 at 12:55 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    To answer the question in the title, everyone doesn't hate healing spirit. The thing is, people tend to talk about what they feel strongly about on the internet and people feel more strongly about things they dont like than most of the things they do.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.
    I think the issues is actually how the rules on death work.

    If I am a level 8 character and I have 12 HP and there is no difference really between if I get hit for 13 or if I get hit for 60, there is a problem.
    Getting rid of negative HP was a mistake, and a huge one.
    Nobody is really in any danger until they are already unconscious.

    In 3.0/3.5/PF if I am at 12 HP I am going to find some healing, go full defense or start planning a new character unless the enemy is one hit from dead.

    In 5e, who cares. Even if it hits me again I am just unconscious no matter how hard it hit me unless it is WAY higher than anything normal. I also have at least a few rounds to go before I am dead dead, and even if all else fails being ressed is not that big of a problem.

    They made 5e play more like a video game than a story.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    If a DM has to rebalance the entire campaign due to a single spell or ablity something is wrong. Image if that every new adventure book has a sub section with alternative encounters if the party has access to healing Spirit.
    I could say the problem is with the DM not being able to handle the party at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. In the games I play not one party uses Healing Spirit yet we each manage to heal up after combat. HD spending when resting, Healer feat, Cure Wounds, Prayer of Healing, Lay on Hands, healing potions. We have various means to do this. If we did have Healing Spirit it would just be one more way to do it, and at best it saves us some healing potions and HD spending. My Sorcerer's Inspiring Leadership alone saved party members from dying because those temporary hit points meant when they did eventually drop in a really tough fight they weren't heavy into negatives.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    In an effort to avoid being overly argumentative, I want to understand if what I see is really a problem of creative dissonance at large, or if my limited experience with D&D is skewing my perspective. In a parallel effort to remain brief, I won't go into detail about my other gaming experience, so I'll only qualify it anecdotally as..."deep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them. In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game
    This, I think, highlights where my impressions differ most. I would agree that the abstract places importance on hp, but I would clarify the second statement:

    Hit points are the most important quantity for combat, but very much reduced in importance for exploration and socialization.

    Am I wrong?

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    To answer the question in the title, everyone doesn't hate healing spirit. The thing is, people tend to talk about what they feel strongly about on the internet and people feel more strongly about things they dont like than most of the things they do.
    This is also a good point. Sometimes things get a lot of digital ink not because of their total intensity of impact on the game, so much as them hitting people's sensibilities the wrong way. I think Healing Spirit is one of those cases. In no small part because it seems* as though the out of combat 'every player takes their turn on their initiative every round running through the healing square' was an unintended rules confluence incentivizing some very meta behavior.
    *'Seems' because we can't know for sure the intended use.

    It is not unlike one handed Quarterstaves with shields and PoleArm Master feat (with or without Shillelagh spell or dueling fighting style) -- the overpoweredness of the build* is not commensurate to many peoples' dislike of the combo. The overarching issue is that it feels like a rules accident, incentivizing behavior outside what people really wanted their D&D games to look like.
    *If it exists at all, which is debated, making it a good parallel to this situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    This, I think, highlights where my impressions differ most. I would agree that the abstract places importance on hp, but I would clarify the second statement:

    Hit points are the most important quantity for combat, but very much reduced in importance for exploration and socialization.

    Am I wrong?
    Well, look at what else I wrote:
    Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is
    I specifically predicated my point exclusively on the part of the game dealing with mechanics. So, in my mind, I clarified in the post you are quoting that I was speaking about a subset of the game as a whole. Mind you, the exploration and social parts of the game do intersect with the mechanics (particularly through the skill system, but also spells). We can go round the flagpole a few times on that distinction if you consider it important, but I'm not sure we're substantively disagreeing on anything.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-04-15 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I could say the problem is with the DM not being able to handle the party at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. In the games I play not one party uses Healing Spirit yet we each manage to heal up after combat. HD spending when resting, Healer feat, Cure Wounds, Prayer of Healing, Lay on Hands, healing potions. We have various means to do this. If we did have Healing Spirit it would just be one more way to do it, and at best it saves us some healing potions and HD spending. My Sorcerer's Inspiring Leadership alone saved party members from dying because those temporary hit points meant when they did eventually drop in a really tough fight they weren't heavy into negatives.
    I'm glad you brought up that list. other than expiring leader which is temporary hit points which is a whole other ballgame, healing Spirit literally does it better than all of those other things combined. It heals more than lay on hands, faster than prayer of healing, and isn't DM dependent like a short rest can be.
    And all those feat/class feature options have an opportunity cost compared to healing Spirit which is just on a prepared spellcasters list and can just pick it up.
    This isn't even factoring in if that player wants to capitalize on healing spirit.

    personally I like how there's a numerous ways for players to heal that way no individual feels like they have to be the party healer. Now the responsibilities is spread out. Now my tables don't tend to gravitate towards yo-yo healing strategies so that isn't an issue for me personally but I can see how it can become an issue.

    Now if it was a ranger only spell......
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    I LIKE healing spirit, I just don’t think it fits all that well.

    Having everyone enter an encounter with full, or nearly full HP isn’t a problem. As a player and as a DM I prefer it.

    What is a problem is that healing spirit is only available to a limited number of characters. This one spell adds a very significant amount of value to Druids, and Rangers, neither of which were bad. The motivation to have a character like this on a team is strong, and some optimized warlock X druid 3 life cleric 1 sorcerer (?) who can cast an extended healing spirit with short rest slots could even make a gritty realism campaign run fairly smoothly, at least from a HP point of view.

    What is also a problem is that if we were to add similar levels of healing power to other classes, we limit the power of the healer-less party.

    Notwithstanding healing spirit and dedicated aura of vitality builds, out of combat healing in 5e is actually quite weak. I don’t generally consider this to be a good thing, but despite my dislike, it does have a strong positive benefit. A party with no, or limited healing does not actually lose out all that badly as compared to a party with significant healing.

    Edit: now I wonder what that Druidclericsorlock would look like...
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2019-04-15 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    This is also a good point. Sometimes things get a lot of digital ink not because of their total intensity of impact on the game, so much as them hitting people's sensibilities the wrong way. I think Healing Spirit is one of those cases. In no small part because it seems* as though the out of combat 'every player takes their turn on their initiative every round running through the healing square' was an unintended rules confluence incentivizing some very meta behavior.
    *'Seems' because we can't know for sure the intended use.
    This is my main objection. I'd object less (although I'd probably still object) to a second-level spell that simply healed the whole party to full over a minute than I do to a conga-line-healing-dance after every combat. That's just too ridiculous for the tone of my game.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?
    I’ll chime in here and say that that I’ve had to. I was DMing a game where the ranger was way outhealing the bard because she didn’t take Healing Spirit as one of her Magical Secrets.

    Also that particular section of the campaign was supposed to be a pretty desperate and careful rationing of resources as they were flung deep into the wilderness and under constant threats and attacks, like so many that the fact that you only get half your HD back on a long rest mattered. If you spent all your HD the previous day, you can count on half that the next day.

    Unfortunately one or two minutes and a few low level ranger spell slots got everyone back to full almost instantly after combat was over, which also meant that getting HD back on a long rest was nearly pointless because nobody really spent any in the first place.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    I think healing spirit would be better if it was a spirit that just loved combat and wanted it to see it continue for as long as possible, so it only shows up when initiative is rolled in a combat (and disappears once it's over) and it heals any creature (not just creatures of the druid's choice) that approaches it. Though that'd require a total rewrite. You'd have to determine whether it heals at the start or end of a creatures' turn, whether the druid still controls the positioning of the spirit, or if it moves randomly or not at all unless a bonus action is spent directing it, etc. Dropping concentration on purpose to prevent enemies from healing once your allies are healed could be a tactic.
    Last edited by Puh Laden; 2019-04-15 at 02:28 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.
    Didn't get any further into the thread than here - so if this has already been mentioned, I apologize. If this is your opinion, then I really want to know what you think about Prayer of Healing. It does far less, takes 10x as long to cast and is "the same power level."

    That's my primary "beef" with Healing Spirit. It's on two caster lists who aren't known for their healing strength (outside of a niche multiclass with Life cleric). Out of combat, it outshines any healing outside of Mass Heal. In combat, it outshines Aura of Vitality, a level 3 Paladin spell that only Lore bards can access earlier.

    Is it OP? No. But not the point. It shatter expected returns for a 2nd level spell, and scales well when upcast.
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them.
    In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game.
    Expendable/depletable resources are the bread and butter of this game.
    Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is.
    Making that more trivial (and we can debate just how much a 2nd level slot for ~35 hp/party member actually is) changes the game*.
    It makes post-fight recovery easier (again, we can debate how much).
    DMs might press harder or players might take more risks with this in their back pocket.
    Counter-intuitively, the likelihood of character death (or TPK) might go up, since people tend to expend until they hit adversity and a significant intermediary adversity (struggling to keep hp near max between combats) has been reduced.

    As to the catnap spell, I just don't see it as that comparable. It does very different things. Short rests, in and of themselves, don't do any particular thing. If you have a bunch of SR-recharging abilities, HD to spend, or even cool SR-healing abilities like Healer feat or Inspiring Leader (pseudo-healing for that one, I guess), then by all means it too is a good resource to put into the discussion. I just don't see why they are so directly comparable.
    Nice post, all around. (As usual).
    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    as another example, Short Rest doesn't let you heal 8d6 in 2 rounds of combat.
    Nor does Healing Word based on how our DM applies it.
    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    wow. this was polite and well done. i need to do this better.
    Yeah, it was, we could all try to be a little more Ducklike.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-04-15 at 03:35 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.
    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    Out of combat, every character gets 10d6 healing for a 2nd level spell.

    In combat, you can get 5d6 over 2 rounds to 2-3 characters for a 2nd level spell. AND every one still gets their action. even the caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    So 10d6 for one level 2 spell slot.
    Where does the "10d6" number come from?

    My understanding is that the minimum number is 20d6, by having pairs of character drag each other through the effect.

    In practice the number can be even higher; for example if a PC is heavily damaged and belongs to a party of four, all 3 other players can push/pull said PC through the effect for 40d6 healing to that PC.

    And if you use minions, you can easily fully heal any character in the party.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2019-04-15 at 03:46 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    You did not switch to just reading the srd?
    Is there is stuff from the dmg or phb missing in the 5e srd?
    Switching to SRD allows to play with no books at all which can be convenient. (in usual play you mostly do not need to read any rule until you have to roll for a fight)
    Yes. Majority of content, in fact. SRD has one subclass for every class, no feats, no backgrounds, lot of spells missing....

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    There is in fact something to be said for a game where everyone is at full HP at the start of every combat. And if you like that style of game, that's fine. But Healing Spirit is a bad way to get that sort of game, because most parties won't have access to it. It means that you're playing a game where healing is cheap and easy if you have a druid, but difficult if you're not. If you really want that style of game (and again, there's nothing wrong if you do), then the proper way to do it is just to do it: Declare that everyone can get all of their HP back by just catching their breath for a minute.

    Plus, of course, there's the fact that not everyone wants that style of game (and that's fine, too). But the existence of Healing Spirit together with a character who can cast it forces the game into that mode anyway.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    There is in fact something to be said for a game where everyone is at full HP at the start of every combat. And if you like that style of game, that's fine. But Healing Spirit is a bad way to get that sort of game, because most parties won't have access to it. It means that you're playing a game where healing is cheap and easy if you have a druid, but difficult if you're not. If you really want that style of game (and again, there's nothing wrong if you do), then the proper way to do it is just to do it: Declare that everyone can get all of their HP back by just catching their breath for a minute.

    Plus, of course, there's the fact that not everyone wants that style of game (and that's fine, too). But the existence of Healing Spirit together with a character who can cast it forces the game into that mode anyway.
    I'd say it's just like anything else in the game, you makes your choices and takes your chances.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    I actually have more of an issue of when upscaling it to a high level spell slot the amount of encounters you can trivialize. 2 weeks ago i was in session playing a bard which had it through magic secret, we were level 13 fighting an adult blue dragon just as my bonus action i was able to position the spirit to usually get 3 out of 5 players and it was healing for 6d6 every round of combat. no one ended any turn below half health... it felt anticlimatic

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Healer" I found among the Feats in the PHB, and "Healing Word" I found among the Spells, but "Healing Spirit"?

    Which book is it in?

    Well whichever it's in (Xanthar's?, SCAG?) the strike against it is that my backpack is heavy enough with just the PHB and DMG, and one more is even more pain on my shoulders.
    There’s this wonderful thing called dndbeyond that uses this magical technology called the internet and PDFs. You can literally have all those books and more in your phone! Shocking, I know

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    There’s this wonderful thing called dndbeyond that uses this magical technology called the internet and PDFs. You can literally have all those books and more in your phone! Shocking, I know
    The condescension isn't necessary mate.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    The condescension isn't necessary mate.
    Neither are toting around books in a backpack in 2019.

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