Underwater Vampires

[Telonius]

An interesting rules question recently came up in my group, and I'd like to hear what the Playground has to say about it. So, the Vampire description says that "running water" is a dire danger to a vampire. It loses a third of its hitpoints each round, being destroyed at the end if it can't get out. So, would a location deep in the ocean count as "running water" for those purposes? I'm thinking tides, ocean currents, and so on would be enough, but how would you rule on that?

Second: if the Vampire happens to be a spellcaster, would it be possible for it to cast a spell (such as Teleport) while underwater (whether it's still or running)? I've seen a few threads that say RAW is silent on the issue, and suggested Water Breathing as a solution to make sure it doesn't interfere; but that's not a valid spell to have on a Vampire (since the target is a living creature).

[Segev]

As long as they stayed out of underwater currents, they'd probably be fine. Simply stirring the water, or having it flow very slowly (as per tides) wouldn't work, but any streams, currents, or other genuinely-moving underwater "wind" would hurt them. They'd want to live in rifts with no streams flowing through them, have buildings to shelter from any "weather" that kicked up a temporary current, but could dwell in still ponds or deep but stagnant oceanic rifts.

[zlefin]

An interesting rules question recently came up in my group, and I'd like to hear what the Playground has to say about it. So, the Vampire description says that "running water" is a dire danger to a vampire. It loses a third of its hitpoints each round, being destroyed at the end if it can't get out. So, would a location deep in the ocean count as "running water" for those purposes? I'm thinking tides, ocean currents, and so on would be enough, but how would you rule on that?

Second: if the Vampire happens to be a spellcaster, would it be possible for it to cast a spell (such as Teleport) while underwater (whether it's still or running)? I've seen a few threads that say RAW is silent on the issue, and suggested Water Breathing as a solution to make sure it doesn't interfere; but that's not a valid spell to have on a Vampire (since the target is a living creature).

On the first; that's a tough question; the ocean is full of currents that might qualify. I don't know enough about vampire lore and its history to say. in the absence of looking stuff up, I'd probably go with ocean often being a danger, unless it's in a very still water zone. there's plenty of current deep underwater, so that wouldn't change the effect unless it's a specific still zone.

on the second; I'd say a vampire could cast the spell fine. Since they don't need to breathe, they shouldn't have any trouble speaking underwater. I don't know of a RAW answer.

[Telonius]

Thanks for the replies so far! Halfway to breaking the DM's sanity already.

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We're about ready to try a decapitation strike against a powerful vampire house. The scheme is to get a bunch of the more powerful ones to attend a negotiation session in a mansion we recently acquired. Set up an unobtrusive Teleportation Circle in an interior hallway, have Water Breathing active and an illusion of a party happening in the room beyond; then lead them to their doom. Hopefully none of them will have Teleport available, but I suppose we could send one of our casters first to ready an action to cast Dimensional Anchor on anybody who looks like they're casting.

[Segev]

Thanks for the replies so far! Halfway to breaking the DM's sanity already.

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We're about ready to try a decapitation strike against a powerful vampire house. The scheme is to get a bunch of the more powerful ones to attend a negotiation session in a mansion we recently acquired. Set up an unobtrusive Teleportation Circle in an interior hallway, have Water Breathing active and an illusion of a party happening in the room beyond; then lead them to their doom. Hopefully none of them will have Teleport available, but I suppose we could send one of our casters first to ready an action to cast Dimensional Anchor on anybody who looks like they're casting.

This will have a few issues:
[spoiler]You'll need to make sure the water in your party room has a genuine current flowing through it. Not just churning it with fans, but actually "blowing" it from one entrance to out another. Your best bet is probably to set up the underwater party room with actual still water, and two windows or doors or sliding walls opposite each other which can open up to allow the current to flow through.

You could achieve a similar result by just flooding an air-filled room with a flowing bit of diverted river, though. If you want to play with the underwater nature, you could have teh walls instead be grates that open and close, so they can't leave the room with the flowing water. Of course, they're vampires, and can assume gasseous form, so....

[Telonius]

This will have a few issues:

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You'll need to make sure the water in your party room has a genuine current flowing through it. Not just churning it with fans, but actually "blowing" it from one entrance to out another. Your best bet is probably to set up the underwater party room with actual still water, and two windows or doors or sliding walls opposite each other which can open up to allow the current to flow through.

You could achieve a similar result by just flooding an air-filled room with a flowing bit of diverted river, though. If you want to play with the underwater nature, you could have teh walls instead be grates that open and close, so they can't leave the room with the flowing water. Of course, they're vampires, and can assume gasseous form, so....

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The room itself is going to be dry; it'll have to be to make sure they don't suspect anything as they're walking through. The initial idea was to teleport them from the hallway to the bottom of the ocean; unless they have teleport as well, there's no way for them to get out within three rounds. If we teleport them into the middle of a strong ocean current, that should be almost as good.

The alternate suggestion is to teleport them to a distant location in a cave, which we Dimensional Lock (all except the entry square) and concentrate fire as they walk through. When they poof, they're far enough away that they can't make it back to their coffins in time. Problem there is that it involves splitting the party, and we're not totally sure of what the ratio of vampires to available Fireballs is going to be.

[Segev]

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The room itself is going to be dry; it'll have to be to make sure they don't suspect anything as they're walking through. The initial idea was to teleport them from the hallway to the bottom of the ocean; unless they have teleport as well, there's no way for them to get out within three rounds. If we teleport them into the middle of a strong ocean current, that should be almost as good.

The alternate suggestion is to teleport them to a distant location in a cave, which we Dimensional Lock (all except the entry square) and concentrate fire as they walk through. When they poof, they're far enough away that they can't make it back to their coffins in time. Problem there is that it involves splitting the party, and we're not totally sure of what the ratio of vampires to available Fireballs is going to be.

In that case:

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I think your idea of teleporting them to the center of a large-radius ocean current is probably your best idea. The disorientation may even prevent them from figuring out the fastest way to a side of it.

[Crake]

Do note that any vampire who has a swim speed (as you would expect from someone living underwater) loses their vulnerability to running water.

If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).

[rferries]

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Wouldn't it be simpler to teleport them to the surface of the sun? They'd only get 1 move/attack action (not enough for a spell) then be destroyed.

[Mordaedil]

The way I see it is that vampires, being basically corpses, would just sink to the bottom of whatever body of water they wander into, but due to water being water, they have no strength to resist the forces of the water and are treated as if in heavy winds and are pushed around and eventually just die due to the forces of the river tossing them around too violently. So if the water is calm enough, the vampire can traverse them without feat, but something like a running river is like being caught in a tornado for them.

But our group likes to ditch the default vampire rules and borrow stuff from World of Darkness, since we like our vampires to be a bit more complicated, especially in games where they feature as main antagonists or protagonists.

[Mike Miller]

I would rule

1: is running water
and

2: need still and or silent metamagic as necessary with concentration check vs damage to cast

[Doctor Awkward]

World of Darkness defines running water in their "Can't Cross Running Water" supernatural vampire flaw as "any body of water at least two feet wide in any direction and not completely stagnant."

Under that definition, the entire ocean would count as running water and be imminently fatal for any vampire submerged in it that does not have a swim speed.

[Telonius]

I feel a bit obligated to let you all know how this absurdity shook out.

So, the party Wizard teleported over to the coast, to get a clear location on the teleport destination. Meanwhile, we started spreading rumors in town that the leadership was going to take some actions that the team would truly hate (the angel in charge was about to ban alcohol; we own several taverns, things like that). We had a kobold flunky take the invite to the vampires (after thoroughly Death Warding him). The vampires agreed to send a delegation: about 15 high-level vamps. What we hadn't anticipated was that the plan worked a little too well; the head of the house herself showed up, twice (more on that later).

The wizard teleported to the dropoff point and set up a wall of fire so that anyone coming through would take damage. Dimensional Locked the area so they couldn't teleport out. We set up the teleportation circle just after a turn of a corner in the hallway. The party Sorcerer set up some Obscuring Mist ("for the mood") so they couldn't see the people in front of them disappearing. Hallucinatory Terrain made the illusion of a party going on down the hallway. Everybody had Water Breathing up in case things went sideways, and we had a couple people capable of either Teleport (or a scroll thereof).

My character (Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple) ushered the vampires all down the hallway. The whole bunch of them went through, including the head of the house. The Wizard was pleased to see that all of the lieutenants were destroyed without problems. But, the head of house (and two others) made it through.

Back in the mansion, I was suddenly targeted with a teleportation effect, no save. I popped up in the current.

The head of house (who had the Vampire Lord template) dropped the Polymorph effect on her two minions; two dragons now appeared and tried to flank me. I was very lucky and didn't get hit by either of them. I swam up next to the Wizard in hopes of teleporting out next turn.

Unfortunately the REAL head of house (also a Vampire Lord, who was wearing a Ring of Spell-Battle and who was Greater Invisibled) hit us with Dimensional Anchor, then Forcecage. She demanded surrender. I responded with Flame Strike. The vampire Dispelled Magic (making breathing very difficult) The wizard targeted her (didn't realize she had the ring yet) and fried herself with a Prismatic Spray. I healed up the Wizard and activated a Rope Trick. The vampire changed into an octopus, squishing us up against the Forcecage cube, but we were able to shimmy up the rope. At this point, the Sorcerer realized something was up and went through the teleportation circle. He cast Baleful Polymorph on the head's body double, turning her into a newt (which promptly drowned). He reluctantly surrendered after the real head demanded it.

So, the upshot - we're basically her agents now, at least until we can figure out how to get out of that mess. But the good news is the end of the world is happening in a couple of weeks (an Elder Evil is on its way), so it might not matter.

[Maat Mons]

I'm kind of confused. Polymorph doesn't work on undead, so it seems like the body-double vampire would have had to use Shapechange. Baleful Polymorph wouldn't dispel Shapechange, just force him into a new form. So he could have just taken on a new form on his next turn as a free action.

[Psyren]

An interesting rules question recently came up in my group, and I'd like to hear what the Playground has to say about it. So, the Vampire description says that "running water" is a dire danger to a vampire. It loses a third of its hitpoints each round, being destroyed at the end if it can't get out. So, would a location deep in the ocean count as "running water" for those purposes? I'm thinking tides, ocean currents, and so on would be enough, but how would you rule on that?

It's a thorny one. 3.5 defines oceans as "non-flowing water." But it goes on to say that there are three states for them - Calm, Rough, and Stormy. I'd say vampires are safe in the first one and at risk in the other two. So for oceans I think the answer is "it depends."

Second: if the Vampire happens to be a spellcaster, would it be possible for it to cast a spell (such as Teleport) while underwater (whether it's still or running)? I've seen a few threads that say RAW is silent on the issue, and suggested Water Breathing as a solution to make sure it doesn't interfere; but that's not a valid spell to have on a Vampire (since the target is a living creature).

Pathfinder has rules for casting underwater (short version - CL check, if you can breathe underwater you can skip it.) So casting underwater is possible. Not sure about 3.5.

[Telonius]

I'm kind of confused. Polymorph doesn't work on undead, so it seems like the body-double vampire would have had to use Shapechange. Baleful Polymorph wouldn't dispel Shapechange, just force him into a new form. So he could have just taken on a new form on his next turn as a free action.

Yeah, that bit was a little unclear even during the session. (My guess is that either both the DM and sorcerer forgot about the Fort Save clause; or that the body double was just a seriously-illusioned up living minion). Assuming a vampire were a valid target of it, Baleful Polymorph would work, though; Vampires don't actually have the Shapechanger subtype, just an Alternate Form special ability.

[Bohandas]

Even if it is running water a non-skintight diving suit would probably be sufficient to protect them. Since they're indead it wouldn't even need an air supply.

[Psyren]

Even if it is running water a non-skintight diving suit would probably be sufficient to protect them. Since they're indead it wouldn't even need an air supply.

I'm not sure any form of clothing/worn gear would work. You'd need something separate from them that blocks line of effect to the water entirely, like a form of submarine or bathysphere.

[Segev]

I'm not sure any form of clothing/worn gear would work. You'd need something separate from them that blocks line of effect to the water entirely, like a form of submarine or bathysphere.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to the rescue!

[Bohandas]

I'm not sure any form of clothing/worn gear would work. You'd need something separate from them that blocks line of effect to the water entirely, like a form of submarine or bathysphere.

I just want to clarify that I don't mean a wetsuit, I mean a Sandy Cheeks from Spongebob style deep sea dive suit where there's a good inch or clearance between the wearer and the water

[Psyren]

I just want to clarify that I don't mean a wetsuit, I mean a Sandy Cheeks from Spongebob style deep sea dive suit where there's a good inch or clearance between the wearer and the water

I get that but it's still worn/attended. So I'm still not sure that would work.

It's moot anyway unless such equipment exists in D&D/PF.

[Cyclonic]

I feel a bit obligated to let you all know how this absurdity shook out.

So, the party Wizard teleported over to the coast...

I feel obligated to say that I learned a lot from this session, like that my wizard should learn to be a bit less reckless and a bit more paranoid A simple see invisibility spell would have totally changed the outcome.

We tried to play the DM, and the DM certainly played us, and in all it was a lot of fun. I really did learn a good deal about tactics and battlefield control that hope hope to put to good use in later sessions.

[BlueWitch]

So would they be called 'Swampires?'

[DrMotives]

So would they be called 'Swampires?'

Needs a hyphen, otherwise "swam-pire" and "swamp-pire" get confusing. One suggests a vampire who is Michael Phelps, the other suggests a bullywug with pointy teeth.

[Telonius]

I feel obligated to say that I learned a lot from this session, like that my wizard should learn to be a bit less reckless and a bit more paranoid A simple see invisibility spell would have totally changed the outcome.

We tried to play the DM, and the DM certainly played us, and in all it was a lot of fun. I really did learn a good deal about tactics and battlefield control that hope hope to put to good use in later sessions.

Yeah, fighting the last battle here but my Eldritch Disciple is definitely taking See the Unseen on the level-up.