Results 1 to 30 of 36
Thread: Counterspelling a wand?
-
2019-04-25, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
Counterspelling a wand?
How does Counterspell work with wands? Is it different for each wand? How about a ring of spell storing?
-
2019-04-25, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Any time a spell is cast you can counterspell. If the wand 'casts magic missle' it can be counterspelled. If it 'creates three balls of force that deal 1d4+1 damage each' it cannot because it didn't cast the spell. It created a spell like effect that was described exactly like a magic missle spell.
Counter spell would then apply as normal to the spell. You must be able to see it being cast and be in range, so a DM could potentially rule that the spell just takes effect (having been cast when the wand was created presumably, but most wands say you can use them to 'cast the x spell')
I'm not 100% sure I'm RAW on this though, so hopefully someone else will confirm or denyLast edited by Galithar; 2019-04-25 at 01:57 AM.
-
2019-04-25, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
- Location
- Finland
- Gender
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
If it's a spell, Counterspell (spell) works as written (a spell of 3rd level or lower fails immediately; higher than that requires a check, unless Counterspell is cast from a higher spell slot).
If it's not a spell, Counterspell (spell) doesn't work at all. Simple as that.Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-04-25 at 01:51 AM.
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
-
2019-04-25, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Doesn't a wand cast spells like a sorcerer (I.e. No components)?
Isn't the no components thing the reason subtle spells are impossible to counterspell?
If the wand had visual casting effects, like magic missile or Fireball, I'd say yes. But a wand of suggestion or charm person, I'd have to say no. Because with no components and no visual effects, there's no way to know the wandslinger cast anything (though you could, if paranoid, go the detect-magic/dispel-magic route in that case)Avatar by the awesome Linklele!
-
2019-04-25, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
No *Verbal* components. You still have material, and more importantly somatic.
I’m not a fan of the “magic is always instantly spotted and provokes a lethal response” approaches, but even I would accept that in a setting where wands are a thing, someone pointing an ornate stick of wood at me is going to be as recognisable and as threatening as a stranger aiming a gun.Have fun, stay sane, enjoy the madness.
-
2019-04-25, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Counterspelling a spell from a magic item is the same as for casting it against a spell from a slot.
Originally Posted by PHB; Magic Items
It doesn't say whether it obviates the need for verbal or somatic, but that at least one of the 2 (holding=somatic, command word=verbal) is required.
Either of those is enough (in normal circumstances) to trigger Counterspell from.
-
2019-04-25, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
- Location
- Los Angeles
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones
-
2019-04-25, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2019-04-25, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
You have to be able to see the spell being cast in order to counterspell it.
Originally Posted by Xanathar's Page 85Last edited by Snowbluff; 2019-04-25 at 10:14 AM.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2019-04-25, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
hmm. when i quoted and bolded the text "requires no components" i was thinking material components.
clearly Crawford expected counterspell to work on wands, too. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...12232432758784)
i will have to ponder that.
-
2019-04-25, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Yeah his ruling makes no sense, since items require no components. I would say if you have some way of detecthing magic outside your senses (ie, 3e's Battlemagic Perception or Duelward), you would be able to counterspell it.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2019-04-25, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Quote from Xanathar's pg 85 .. Perceiving a Spell.
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
Counterspell:
"I reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
"You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell."
DMG p 141
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise"
Spells cast using wands and the ring of spell storing no longer have components [V,S,M] and so can't be perceived and counterspelled.Last edited by Keravath; 2019-04-25 at 10:21 AM.
-
2019-04-25, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
*goes to make wands of meteor swarm*
-
2019-04-25, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
So then my ruling depends on the spell. Magic Missile, rays, fireballs, lines like lightning bolt and the like can be countered; the magic is perceptible and the source is clear.
Something perceptible, but with no source, like Moonbeam and Wall of Fire, can't be countered but can be dispelled.
Imperceptible and no clear source? Dispelled if you happen to know magic is about, which I guess will depends on Detect Magic or, conceivably, "My wife would never give our nest egg away! I have to fight with her tooth and nail to get an extra bottle of wine! Those marauder must have cursed her somehow!"Avatar by the awesome Linklele!
-
2019-04-25, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
By the time you see the effects of the spell, it has already been cast. You can't counterspell a spell after it has been cast only while it is being cast. In order to notice that a spell is being cast it needs to have a V,S, or M component. Spells cast from wands and a ring of spell storing or other magic items have no components (dmg p141) and so can't be perceived before they are cast and can't be counterspelled.
-
2019-04-25, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
-
2019-04-25, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Personally I woould rule that whatever was needed to activate the item was a component (command word = verbal component, pointing wand = somatic component).
It doesn't appear to be RAW but I believe it to be RAI and I think makes the most sense. I don't think my players that invested in having counterspell would appreciate lots of spell effects coming at them they couldn't do anything about.
-
2019-04-25, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
I think RAW this doesn't work but you are welcome to run it however you like.
Your example makes a number of assumptions.
1) The wizard can clearly see the wand or ring.
2) At whatever distance the wizard can figure out what sort of wand or ring it is when there isn' necessarily any standardized look to any particular wand. (I realize the DMG has some pictures but I am sure a wizard could make their wand of lightning bolts look like a wand of secrets if they wanted to)
3) This assumes that the user hasn't just covered the wand with a cloth to make it impossible for someone to identify it at a distance.
4) How can the command word be distinguished from any other word?
5) It would take the wizard an action to try to use Arcana to try to get an idea of what something might. In addition, since trying to identify something using Arcana actually duplicates the use of the identify spell, I'm not sure how much arcana would necessarily reveal about a random magic item held by an opponent in combat 30 feet away.
Finally, is there anything that can be interrupted when casting a spell using a magic item? I don't know, the rules give no information on how casting a spell from an item differs from performing the V,S,M components to cast the spell normally.
Anyway, that is a DM call and I can see it going either way. I'd say that RAW, since spells cast with magic items don't have any components, then they can't be prevented by counterspell. Does that make spell casting magic items somewhat more powerful? Yes ... and the DM can incorporate that into game balance. It doesn't really change anything.
-
2019-04-25, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Good points all and I believe RAW you are correct even though I don't agree with RAW here.
Let me ask you this though, suppose its not a random encounter, but you've been observing the wand user for a couple of days,and every time he activates the wand he flourishes it and says "Sim sim salibim".
Then the next day you and he get into an argument, he pulls out the wand, flourishes it and says "sim sim..." Then before he finishes you ask the DM if you can react by casting counterspell.
Do you or do you not think it would be reasonable for counterspell to protect you in that instance?
-
2019-04-26, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
-
2019-04-27, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2018
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Xanathar's "Perceiving a Spell" (p.85) rule about a spell requiring a V/S/M component to be detected is an optional rule.
If we go by PHB/DMG only, a Wand can be visually seen and so its spell can be detected & counterspelled.Last edited by Merudo; 2019-04-27 at 04:52 AM.
My Druid Guides: Circle of the Moon ; Circles of Dreams, Land, Shepherd, and Spores
My Unofficial Errata & Compendium
-
2019-04-27, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Have you guys checked the wands' descriptions to see if all or some of them still require components?
If the rule is "no component unless the item says so", then the next step is to check the item.
EDIT:
Also keep in mind wands, even those who aren't magic items on top of that, are arcane focuses too, aka an alternative to material components.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-04-27 at 06:47 AM.
-
2019-04-27, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Do we all have spidey sense, then? We can detect when someone is actually using the wand and not just being dramatic, or trying to trick you? What happens if you spend your reaction to counter a spell that is not being cast in the first place?
What about wands being waved for spells that don't require a focus? Does that count as the spell being visible? The motion is unrelated to the spell, so I can't imagine that it is.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2019-04-27, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
-
2019-04-27, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- New Hampshire
- Gender
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Wands don't have commands words. That's an older editions thing. They have no components. DM rules they can CS you anyway? New strategy:
Point a want at them, easily a free action if you're not activating it. They CS. NOW cast a spell yourself. The wand doesn't even have to be magical.If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?
In real estate, they say it's all about location, location, location. In D&D I say it's about action economy, action economy, action economy.
Crystal Mage -- a homebrewed arcane tradition
-
2019-04-27, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2019-04-27, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
I disagree.
If you are trying to convince someone you are using an item, it should be convincing, an action to perform a deception/performance.
Moreover, XGE optional identify BS aside, a decent DM should let you identify the spell being cast. (especially if they can also cast fireball)
I don't understand why WotC felt the need to nerf Counterspell so much in XGE, thus I don't use that optional rule.
If you want to be pedantic and super rules lawyery, CS will only trigger when a real spell is being cast. (XGE optional rules talk about ineligible targets, not triggers)
-
2019-04-27, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
I would tend to say no but it is a DM call. (RAW there are still no components to the spell). The command word activates the device which casts the spell with no components required.
From the text of a wand of polymorph as an example:
"While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges to cast the polymorph spell (save DC 15) from it."
The description can be read to say that the wand is casting the spell, the spell comes from it. The command word just activates the wand.
On the other hand counterspell says:
"1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
In this case, is the creature casting a spell? The wand would appear to be casting the spell. The creature is using the "use a magic item" action which counterspell doesn't interrupt.
That's RAW :)
From a fluff perspective, the player activates a magic item releasing the stored magical effect. The magical effect occurs as soon as the magic item is activated so I would tend to think it can't be counterspelled but as I've said it is entirely up to the DM how they want to run it.
-
2019-04-27, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
You're assumption here is that the V,S,M components for every spell are identical for each spell caster. There is nothing specifically on this anywhere in the source material.
Let's take wizards as an example. Every level you can add two spells to your spell book. These could be ones you have been working on and perfecting for the past level. You can also copy another wizard's spells but this requires transcribing the spell into your own "unique system of notation" and practicing associated verbal and somatic components.
"Copying a spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation."
If every spell used exactly the same V,S,M components every time it was cast, it would probably be pretty easy to figure out what was being cast. However, another way to look at it is that the V,S,M components are used by the individual wizard to manipulate the weave and trigger their interaction with magic and they may not be exactly the same as another wizards. For example, one wizard might cast shield by holding their hand up, palm extended, and saying "stop" ... another might swing their hand across from left to right and say "block", another might speak draconic and move their hand from down to up while saying "shields up!". If there is any variation in the V,S,M components for spells then it is NOT immediately obvious what spell is being cast unless the observer carefully looks at the components and infers what the spell might be.
In most of the games I have played in, all the DM says is that the opponent is casting a spell, and that is all the input you have to decide whether to counterspell or not. Similarly, the player will say they are casting a spell and the DM then decides whether the NPCs will counterspell it before you state what the spell will be (if you are concerned about cheating the player can write it down).
-
2019-04-27, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Counterspelling a wand?
My experience is different, the DMs are fairly liberal about what is being cast, if only to keep the game moving.
The material components are identical.
my assumption is that the spell verbal/somatic/material components are close enough to figure it out.
your assumption is that the gestures and verbals greatly differ based on the individual caster.
neither assumption is wrong.
regardless of the words that i use to describe how a crossbow works (written in short hand, english, dragonic, equations), the physics are the same, and it takes practice to aim and hit.