The new general "Dominions 5" Thread

[tyckspoon]

Don't remember enough about Pokemon to recommend one to be sacred for Fuchsia City, but I'll just say that not every nation needs to have a sacred unit. They're nice to have, especially if they're good enough or available enough to build a strategy around, but you shouldn't feel that you have to give the nation one for the sake of giving the nation a sacred.

It is kind of weird not to have one in Dominions lore - you usually only see it when the lore of the nation is based on 'Screw the gods we only trust in the might of steel!' (eg, Ulm) Even Mekone, which is directly based on rebellion against the idea of ruling divinities, has their own sacred warriors. It's based on what that nation reveres/looks up to/holds as ideals. For Fuschia.. I'd go with Ekans/Arbok?

[Aeson]

Even Mekone, which is directly based on rebellion against the idea of ruling divinities, has their own sacred warriors.

Mekone has sacred commanders but no sacred troops. Same goes for MA/LA Phlegra, except that Phlegra's sacred commanders are worse 'warrior' chassis than Mekone's due to being human priests rather than giant mage-priests and giant warrior-mages.

you usually only see it when the lore of the nation is based on 'Screw the gods we only trust in the might of steel!' (eg, Ulm)

Normal nations that I can think of that have no recruitable sacred troops:
- EA Yomi
- EA Mekone
- MA Ulm
- MA Phlegra
- MA Shinuyama
- MA R'lyeh
- LA Phlegra
- LA R'lyeh

Of these, only MA Ulm has a 'screw the gods, we only put our faith in our craft' kind of thing going on; EA Mekone, MA Phlegra, and LA Phlegra are more 'we hate the gods and put our faith in our giant strength,' Yomi and Shinuyama presumably lack recruitable sacred units because they're demons (not that that stopped Lanka) and goblins/non-banishable demons, and MA/LA R'lyeh has no obvious reason for a lack of recruitable sacred units other than that they're alien invaders from a crashed spaceship 'fallen star.'

Also, if sacred commanders count as 'sacred warriors,' then MA and LA Phlegra are probably the only normal nations in the game that don't have a recruitable 'sacred warrior,' because their only sacreds are unarmored human H1 priests armed with only a dagger. MA Ulm's priest-smiths are kitted out like and have a stat line fit for a more or less average human warrior, Mekone has sacred giants (including, of course, the very obviously warrior-type Polemarch), Yomi has sacred demon-samurai commanders, and Shinuyama's Bakemono Sorcerers and MA/LA R'lyeh's Starspawn (priest variant) could probably make okay light thugs due to their decent-ish HP and strength, their ability to self-bless, and their access to useful self-buffs, though they'd be quite expensive for it.

[deuterio12]

R'lyeh has a gate at their cap that can call all kinds of sacred otherwordly beings.

Yomi/Shinuyama have cheap/low research national sacred summons in the shikome and tengu.

[lord_khaine]

Not really certain what relevance all of this has. Except i guess as some measuring contest on getting the last word.

I tried playing grass town some more.
They do play uniqely. But im still not certain if their chaff growth is to exponentional or not.

Also think we might want to considder nerfing the arrow fend spell.
This Mod has far more ranget units, and they are far more important.
Casting arrow fend would have a much bigger impact for a pokemon nation.

[tyckspoon]

Celadon's Diamond Beauties also have the thing happening where their summons aren't attacking in assassinations; it's less damaging to them because the poison clouds mean a lot of their victims will end up killing themselves regardless, but still less effective than they should be (especially when that Weepinbell refuses to fire a point-blank Razor Leaf.) Also, I had thought this was cosmetic, but it might be a related symptom - the sprites are facing the wrong way in assassination battles. It doesn't seem to stop them from shooting, but might be related to why they aren't recognizing an enemy in melee distance?



..Celadon Nurse is not poison resistant. Oops.

[Manticoran]

Celadon's Diamond Beauties also have the thing happening where their summons aren't attacking in assassinations; it's less damaging to them because the poison clouds mean a lot of their victims will end up killing themselves regardless, but still less effective than they should be (especially when that Weepinbell refuses to fire a point-blank Razor Leaf.) Also, I had thought this was cosmetic, but it might be a related symptom - the sprites are facing the wrong way in assassination battles. It doesn't seem to stop them from shooting, but might be related to why they aren't recognizing an enemy in melee distance?

Sounds like magic beings without any leadership?

[deuterio12]

I tried playing grass town some more.
They do play uniqely. But im still not certain if their chaff growth is to exponentional or not.

Also think we might want to considder nerfing the arrow fend spell.
This Mod has far more ranget units, and they are far more important.
Casting arrow fend would have a much bigger impact for a pokemon nation.

Another possibility is to add the ability to ignore shields to ranged pokemon weapons, which I believe also ignores air shield. At least most blasting spells seem to have that property and air shield doesn't help any against them. Some more exotic ranged weapons like the storm demon's lighting have ignore shields too in the mod inspector.

Celadon's Diamond Beauties also have the thing happening where their summons aren't attacking in assassinations; it's less damaging to them because the poison clouds mean a lot of their victims will end up killing themselves regardless, but still less effective than they should be (especially when that Weepinbell refuses to fire a point-blank Razor Leaf.) Also, I had thought this was cosmetic, but it might be a related symptom - the sprites are facing the wrong way in assassination battles. It doesn't seem to stop them from shooting, but might be related to why they aren't recognizing an enemy in melee distance?

It reminds me of the guard order behaviour more than anything.

Although something else to take in mind is that only ranged weapons with a special propety can be used at melee range and razor leaf isn't one of them. May run some tests setting some beauty assassinations and adding the ability to leaf in melee when I have the time.

In the other hand as you point out poison aura assassinations already doing a good job just by standing there.

[tyckspoon]

Although something else to take in mind is that only ranged weapons with a special propety can be used at melee range and razor leaf isn't one of them. May run some tests setting some beauty assassinations and adding the ability to leaf in melee when I have the time.

Oh, that's working as intended then - I was thrown off by the relative sizes of the sprites because Weepinbell is like five times the size of Bellsprouts, but by actual unit sizes they were all in the same square and engaged in melee combat (1 Size 2 Weepinbell and 3 Size 1 Bellsprout.)

[deuterio12]

So I was testing pokemon ranged weapons against Airshield and found something interesting.

Area ranged attacks automatically bypass airshield.

With that in mind I believe there's no need to nerf arrow fend since there's quite a few mons with area ranged attacks.

[lord_khaine]

Area ranged attacks automatically bypass airshield.

Its certainly now a reason to wait and see the result of some games first.

[deuterio12]

In that case:

Anybody interested in a small test game with the pokemon mod please raise your hand. Also state your nation preference between Pewter, Cerulean, Vermillion and Celadon City. If there's conflict of interest we can randomize it. I have no particular preference personally.

If only lord_khaine is interested, then I'll go look for more interest in other places (or we can do a first 1x1).

[tyckspoon]

In that case:

Anybody interested in a small test game with the pokemon mod please raise your hand. Also state your nation preference between Pewter, Cerulean, Vermillion and Celadon City. If there's conflict of interest we can randomize it. I have no particular preference personally.

If only lord_khaine is interested, then I'll go look for more interest in other places (or we can do a first 1x1).

Sure, although I'll be on a trip this weekend and won't be able to guarantee time until next week.

- bug report: Geodude Team spell is summoning Gravelers, which means sufficiently powerful Earth casters (and Pewter has no shortage of them) can basically skellyspam Gravelers. Which is kind of hilarious, but certainly not the intended power level for that spell and lack of gem use. Might want to do a review on all your pokesummon spells and rituals and make sure they're actually summoning the intended unit.

[deuterio12]

Ouch, good catch. And indeed there were a bunch of other miscoded summons, hoping I got them all.

Will give a couple more reviews before uploading a cleaner version to be used for the test game.

And no problem waiting until next week to get the game started, although again feel free to call dibs in a specific nation.

[Glimbur]

Just to complicate things, I'm finally ready with a beta version of the pokemon mod I was working on. For clarity's sake, let's call it EA Johto. I have thoughts for MA and LA but they will be a while. Goal is to have it fit power-wise somewhere in with vanilla nations.

Link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mR...lIj9GVnRTX0YD2

There are several things I'm especially curious for feedback on

- Mewtwo might be too cheap
- Expansion in general is hard, maybe some pokemon are better at it than others.
- Is the magic too random? I haven't tried to get any usable spells in my short tests.

I suspect it will not play nicely with the pokemon gyms, identical unit names and such. So, here's a beta test. What do you think? Here's the design document, you can comment there or in the thread or wherever.

[lord_khaine]

I will try and give it a look when i can find the time.
Normally when i test something i run though 14-16 months a couple times to see where that leaves me.
Say if you want feedback on more than that.

[deuterio12]

I suspect it will not play nicely with the pokemon gyms, identical unit names and such.

If you let me know what range of weapon/monster ID numbers you want to reserve for your mod, I'm willing to make sure they don't overlap on my side to make both mods compatible.

[lord_khaine]

If you let me know what range of weapon/monster ID numbers you want to reserve for your mod, I'm willing to make sure they don't overlap on my side to make both mods compatible.

I dont think they are at the moment?
Yours are way above the average nation level. His seems a little beneath it.

There are several things I'm especially curious for feedback on

- Mewtwo might be too cheap
- Expansion in general is hard, maybe some pokemon are better at it than others.
- Is the magic too random? I haven't tried to get any usable spells in my short tests.

I suspect it will not play nicely with the pokemon gyms, identical unit names and such. So, here's a beta test. What do you think? Here's the design document, you can comment there or in the thread or wherever.

First Impression.

-Mewtwo is insanely overpriced as far as i can see. Its priced like an expanding monster. But only has 30 hp.
-A shame the nurse isnt a true healer. Like in the other mod.
-The Ranger HQ/Gym buildings are a interstingly unique idea.
-Its a little disapointing to get a hero who just turns out to be an upkeep free commander.
-I like that the evolution requirement is just 20 xp.
-its kinda critical that evolving just makes the pokemon larger without giving it more HP. As such i almost think it might make them weaker since their attack density fall drastically.
-Dratini seems like a waste of gems. Even their first evolution looks like something that will get beaten by a heavy infantryman.
-a lot of the stats are low. Like a S3 unit with just 12 str? (evolved squirtle)
-I had a group of Wartotles get beaten in melee by wolf tribe archers. Ill just leave that bit here..
-Minor spelling error on Charmeleon flavor text
-An error occured when i attacked some horse archers with an army of Bulbasaurs, dragonairs and Ivysaurs. It crashed the game when i watched the battle.
-The pokemon in general are being shredded by arrows, since they are low prot, low hp, and lack shields.

The Evolutions are a good idea. But they are far, far to weak. A size 4 Blastoise has just 15? hp, and will likely still lose to an indie heavy knight.
And yes its possible to train a regular squirtle up to that point with the gym. But the oppotunity cost is to big, since it means your army has to sit still for 6-7 turns.

[Glimbur]

I wanted there to be a tension between sitting to train and expanding, and it sounds like I hit that. But I hear you on the pokemon in general being too weak, especially for their gold cost. More HP and more stats, for sure. I have also thought about a stronger starting army, but I think it would be better to buff the base pokemon.

I'm most worried about the charmander line. Bulbasaur has entangling and then projectiles, squirtle has some protection, pikachu has attack density, geodude has protection top and maybe deserves more specials like mountain survival and a siege/defense bonus. Rattatta is chaff. Dratini is supposed to be anti-protection but is maybe too weak. But charmander? Best he gets is fire and eventuallu flying.

I'll try nudging some numbers upward and seeing how that goes. Archers are a real problem but I do not know how to fix it and stay true to the theme.

[lord_khaine]

I wanted there to be a tension between sitting to train and expanding, and it sounds like I hit that.

No i think you undervalue the time you spend doing nothing instead of expanding?
I might considder waiting to train if it took 1 round. Any more and i would get to far behind on the expansion curve.
So as it is the isnt any tension. The upgrade is barely worth 1 turns expansion.

You might want to consider putting the gym further up on the research tree.
And as i mentioned before, giving the nurse healer. Else the pokemon who evolve are to cripped to be of use.
The rack up afflictions like crazy due to low HP and Low Prot.
Actually you might want to give them all affliction resistance. After all. Pokemon just faint

I'm most worried about the charmander line. Bulbasaur has entangling and then projectiles, squirtle has some protection, pikachu has attack density, geodude has protection top and maybe deserves more specials like mountain survival and a siege/defense bonus. Rattatta is chaff. Dratini is supposed to be anti-protection but is maybe too weak. But charmander? Best he gets is fire and eventuallu flying.

Give Geodude rock throw? Or perhaps slashing/piercing resistance? then they can screen against indie archers. Though their low move does suck. Perhaps increase that a lot when they evolve.
And maybe give evolved Pikachu a ranged attack? it seems weird how thunderbolt is a melee skill.
charmander meanwhile, yeah its to squishy. It will explode upon contact with indie infantry.

[deuterio12]

I dont think they are at the moment?
Yours are way above the average nation level. His seems a little beneath it.

Well then exactly how much is "way above" so I can go increase the cost of everything to balance the mod? After all stuff like giants gets to have big stats in return for big price costs.

So how much higher gold costs would you think would make things fairer? 20%? 50%? Twice as costly?

[Glimbur]

No, your unit numbers are way above the normal numbers people pick. Which will help with compatability. Might have to rename some units.

[deuterio12]

No, your unit numbers are way above the normal numbers people pick. Which will help with compatability. Might have to rename some units.

The names are not a problem as long as you're calling the monsters and weapon by their normal ID numbers. There can be multiple monsters with the same name as long as they have different IDs (like there's multiple "crossbowman" with different armors, same name, different number IDs and stats).

That's why I asked what ID numbers you want to use for your mod to make sure they don't overlap. It doesn't matter what the monsters are called if the ID numbers end up overlaping, then compatibility issues happen.

For example, the pokemon mod currently uses weapon froms #800 to #872, and monsters from #6279 to #6500. So what ranges do you want to reserve for your mod?

[lord_khaine]

Well then exactly how much is "way above" so I can go increase the cost of everything to balance the mod? After all stuff like giants gets to have big stats in return for big price costs.

So how much higher gold costs would you think would make things fairer? 20%? 50%? Twice as costly?

Hmm.. thats a difficult question. I will need to think a bit over it.
At the moment i think your nations are more or less balanced against one another.
But likely the troops would need at least a 20-30 point increase to balance them against other nations.
The commanders seems balanced enough.

[deuterio12]

Hmm.. thats a difficult question. I will need to think a bit over it.
At the moment i think your nations are more or less balanced against one another.
But likely the troops would need at least a 20-30 point increase to balance them against other nations.
The commanders seems balanced enough.

Yay for autocalc! Shame it doesn't seem to work for troops... (it seems to always give them a 0 GP cost).

Well will start preparing a version with 30% increased gold/recruitment costs for troops rounded up as necessary and check how it plays out. At least I hope you meant 30 percent, because +20-30 full gold cost just sounds like way too much in particular the numerous size 1 pokemon that actually have mostly stats inferior to normal humies.

Spoiler: Also the result of Geodudes against Ulm Maidens of equal gold cost

Show

Now as you can see the geodudes got their asses kicked in the end but took down almost half the maidens so they put up a fight. Since Steel maidens are somewhat resource intensive and are already considered pretty top tier for troops, a 30% price increase for the Geodude sounds justified.

[lord_khaine]

Trying the other mod did also show me something was possible that i were not aware off.
Namely that you can create sites with spells.
Would it be a idea to limit some of the elite pokemon to created sites that can only be cast at special terrain?

But yeah. A 30% increase might be relevant. At it is, for a large part the pokemon nations just works on spamming out large amount of troops and flooding the world with Pikachu.
Also though, the pokemon gym building Glimburs mod has could be a good way to handle that late game its almost impossible for troops to survive long enough to evolve.
(might also need to increase magickarp price though)

And Glimbur.
You might want to considder placing a Pokemon hospital with healer effect in the magic site creation spells?

[deuterio12]

But yeah. A 30% increase might be relevant. At it is, for a large part the pokemon nations just works on spamming out large amount of troops and flooding the world with Pikachu.

Will do.

Also something interesting I discovered, seems like at a certain price range (seems like 30+), gold costs must be multiples of 5 or the game will round automatically to the nearest, althoigh recruitment points can be whatever.

Trying the other mod did also show me something was possible that i were not aware off.
Namely that you can create sites with spells.
Would it be a idea to limit some of the elite pokemon to created sites that can only be cast at special terrain?

Well it would be quite a bit of extra work but may be indeed interesting for the most elite pokemon.

Any specific suggestions? Onyx mine at mountains? Gyarados pool at swamps?

Also though, the pokemon gym building Glimburs mod has could be a good way to handle that late game its almost impossible for troops to survive long enough to evolve.
(might also need to increase magickarp price though)

I was ware that it's possible to create sites through spells, but also that demands coding events and I wasn't very sure how to do it. Still Glimbur's mode provides a quite nice simple template so I finally got it to work, thanks Glimbur!

Also changing the exp granted by the site can be easily changed, so why not make multiple tiers of gyms at different tiers of magic?

Probably gonna put them in construction too since well, they're basically mundane sites.

Like Construction 1-lesser gym for 2 exp per turn for 2 gems.
Construction 3-advanced gym for 4 exp per turn for 4 gems.
Construction 5-greater gym for 8 exp per turn for 8 gems
Construction 7-master gym for 16 exp per turn for 16 gems.
Construction 9-ultimate gym for 32 exp per turn for 32 gems.

[lord_khaine]

Well it would be quite a bit of extra work but may be indeed interesting for the most elite pokemon.

Any specific suggestions? Onyx mine at mountains? Gyarados pool at swamps?

Yeah it was something along that line i were thinking about.
If you put a recruitment limit on them. As well as demanded both special terrain like swamp, cave or waste, and a site spell.
Then it could balance out if those pokemon are both sacred and especially nasty.
In that case you might want to remove magic carp from the recruitable pokemon though.
Else it becomes to easy to abuse training sites.

With those larger Pokemon like Onyx and Gyrados. Then you could instead considder making a Feral (undisciplined) version that turns trained at like 10 xp or so?

Also changing the exp granted by the site can be easily changed, so why not make multiple tiers of gyms at different tiers of magic?

Probably gonna put them in construction too since well, they're basically mundane sites.

Like Construction 1-lesser gym for 2 exp per turn for 2 gems.
Construction 3-advanced gym for 4 exp per turn for 4 gems.
Construction 5-greater gym for 8 exp per turn for 8 gems
Construction 7-master gym for 16 exp per turn for 16 gems.
Construction 9-ultimate gym for 32 exp per turn for 32 gems.

Ah yes that does sound like an excellent idea.
Would also give more reason to research construction.

[deuterio12]

Yeah it was something along that line i were thinking about.
If you put a recruitment limit on them. As well as demanded both special terrain like swamp, cave or waste, and a site spell.
Then it could balance out if those pokemon are both sacred and especially nasty.

Hmmm, thing is only the Larpas and Onyx are sacred. Should the Gyarados be too?

Also perhaps the shiny pokemon champions could be tied to such sites as well. The mid-tier stuff can probably remain recruitable normally.

In that case you might want to remove magic carp from the recruitable pokemon though.
Else it becomes to easy to abuse training sites.

Or I could pump magicarp promotion exp higher again. 100 Suddenly seems a lot more doable with an 8 exp gym.

With those larger Pokemon like Onyx and Gyrados. Then you could instead considder making a Feral (undisciplined) version that turns trained at like 10 xp or so?

Well by that standard one could also make "low level" and "high level" versions with progressively higher stats and better attacks, but that's probably a bit too much work and complication when there's still a lot of other nations to do.

Ah yes that does sound like an excellent idea.
Would also give more reason to research construction.

Nice!

[lord_khaine]

Hmmm, thing is only the Larpas and Onyx are sacred. Should the Gyarados be too?

Also perhaps the shiny pokemon champions could be tied to such sites as well. The mid-tier stuff can probably remain recruitable normally.

You mean the pokemons who can use magic?
Yeah it would make things more if they were viable.
Im just still not certain if they are worth their price or not.
For a lot of them their paths are not suited for actual combat.
And they also lack the slots to be useful thugs or super combatants.

Or I could pump magicarp promotion exp higher again. 100 Suddenly seems a lot more doable with an 8 exp gym.

Yes it does. Or set it at.. 50? and then just place a recruitment limit on magic carp?

[deuterio12]

You mean the pokemons who can use magic?
Yeah it would make things more if they were viable.
Im just still not certain if they are worth their price or not.
For a lot of them their paths are not suited for actual combat.
And they also lack the slots to be useful thugs or super combatants.

How so? High earth and air can both be pretty brutal in combat. High water isn't too shabby either, and the best if actually fighting underwater. High nature isn't as much of a killer app, but still has some good spammable spells.

Or if making them demand a ritual site I guess I could remove the ritualist/item forging penalty.

Yes it does. Or set it at.. 50? and then just place a recruitment limit on magic carp?

Thing is magikarps are supposed to be pretty common.

One thing I noticed is that there's a desertion command that makes monsters have a percentile chance to just go away every month.

So maybe besides 50 exp for promotion give them something like 20% chance to desert each month? Representing trainers getting bored and just eating releasing them.