The artificer returns

[Wildarm]

So Spell Storing Item still doesn't appear to require anybody's concentration as neither the artificer nor the end user is actually "casting" the spell in question. 10 Uses of a level 1 or 2 spell per day with no concentration is pretty solid.

Hmmm Had not noticed the wording on that was produce the spell's effect. The does seem to imply that you can indeed ignore concentration. That opens up some more options. Being able to change the spell each long rest is nice.

Assuming no concentration, here are a few ideas:

- Enhance Ability seems OK. 10x per day you give advantage on whatever ability check you want for an hour. Help action renders this pointless in many cases but Con at least can give your party 2d6 Temp HP. Top it off during the day for anyone who takes damage. Giving entire team advantage on stealth is great as well.
- Invisibility - Always start an encounter invisible. Mass invisibility 2x per day for the whole team as well.
- Longstrider - Doesn't need concentration but you can give the whole party +10 movement 2x a day for an hour
- See Invisibility - Niche use but useful to have on the whole party in a fight where you expect invisible/ethereal enemies.
- Alter Self - Instant disguise for the entire group. Waterbreathing for whole group as well
- Levitate - Poor mans mass fly
- Protection from poison - Poor mans hero's feast
- Warding Bond - This is the weird one and perhaps the most interesting/game changing. It can effectively give your party +1 to AC and saves and you are now sort of operating as one huge HP pool:

Each person in the party casts warding bond on the next. Last person casts it on the first. If you have someone with natural resistance such as a Bear Totem Barbarian, you could end the chain with him instead so he soaks damage himself halving it all. With rounding you can effectively reduce the total damage and spread it around the whole party:

Example: 4 person party - 10 damage attack on A

A takes 5
B takes 2
C takes 1
D takes 0

Bigger damage example with 45 damage

A takes 22
B takes 11
C takes 5
D takes 2
A takes 1
B takes 0

Combine with smaller consistent heals from something like healing spirit or upcast heroism and you get some nice robustness. Downside is your casters will have to make a lot of concentration checks(I expect any caster to be able to handle DC 10 concentration checks at this point though) and it will slow down the game in general as you play the pass the damage along game with each hit. Pretty cool combo though and a slight defense buff to the whole team. Lasts for an hour and you can do it 2x per day. Have to stay withing 60' of each other as well.

[Seclora]

Put me into the camp that believes Battle Smith should be split into two:

Iron Defender focused, and... Red Mage focused, I suppose. Because that’s what it is, it’s totally a Red Mage. The Battle pet should be it’s own thing.

Agreed.

Make a Gish-y Battlesmith that enhances their weapon attacks and can use spell slots to negate damage by channeling them into armor. All while using their Int on weapon attacks. Make them the all Artificer Party's tank, focused on reducing incoming damage and diverting attacks onto them with magnets and such. Maybe give them Superior Arcane Armament to give them a third attack.

Then make a Mechanist who creates a mechanical pal who's fun to be around and maybe give them some battlefield control options. The Iron Defender alone takes up most of this class, but they should probably have a strongly support spell list and be expected to rely on basic chassis cantrips and Arcane Armanent for their own damage output.

[Matticusrex]

I hope this class signals that they will start balancing the power level around the higher end (paladins and casters). No one wants their dream class to be as weak as fighters and rangers or having a huge reliance on short rests like monks. Artificer looks incredibly solid so far.

[Anderlith]

Put me into the camp that believes Battle Smith should be split into two:

Iron Defender focused, and... Red Mage focused, I suppose. Because that’s what it is, it’s totally a Red Mage. The Battle pet should be it’s own thing.

A Hexblade pact of the chain is more powerful.
Let the Battlesmith keep his little pupper

[MaxWilson]

My big takeaway from this UA:

There's nothing wrong with switching Beastmaster-pet commanding from an action to a bonus action. If it's good for the Battle Smith, it's good for the Beastmaster.

[detro]

Rereading the battlesmith, they could actually function pretty much independently of the defender.
The only real feature they lose is 1/2 of the 14th level features ("Whenever your iron defender uses its Defensive Pounce, the attacker takes force damage equal to 1d4 + your Intelligence modifier"). Which was ridiculous anyways, no other class gets resourceless automatic damage as a reaction.
Battlesmith is so overloaded with features they are practically 2 subclasses in one. You could completely ignore the pet and you would still be effective. The defender is just a free pool of hit points, damage, and utility on top of a strong subclass chassis.

[Spiritchaser]

A Hexblade pact of the chain is more powerful.
Let the Battlesmith keep his little pupper

But do they need to occupy the same space conceptually?

Power balance is easy to change if needed

[jaappleton]

Here’s my big issue with the Iton Defender:

There’s tons of ways to generate a bonus action attack. The double Scimitar, PAM Feat, Crossbow Expert Feat, doing it with right the Greatweapon Master Feat...

Why would I attack with the Iron Defender? I suppose if I were in a Feat-less game, sure. But aside from that... This is an issue I have with the Artificer in general:

Why use the Artillerist turret to attack, when I can attack? Why use the Iron Defender to attack, when I can? Why use the Alchemical Homonculus to attack, when I can? And especially when my attacks do superior damage, and have a better attack roll?

I like Battle Smith, I do, but the only thing I’d use the Defender for is it’s Reaction.

[Anderlith]

But do they need to occupy the same space conceptually?

Power balance is easy to change if needed

They needn’t be, but you & others are making a case that it makes them “too powerful”, or that they should take the Battlesmith’s loyal doggo away from them. Heedless of the fact that Artificers have ALWAYS had Homunculi. Artificer’s aren’t suddenly the “pet class” if anything one should take the great ideas here & adapt them to a feasible Ranger, not nerf it into the ground because it does it better

[Wildarm]

Here’s my big issue with the Iton Defender:

There’s tons of ways to generate a bonus action attack. The double Scimitar, PAM Feat, Crossbow Expert Feat, doing it with right the Greatweapon Master Feat...

Why would I attack with the Iron Defender? I suppose if I were in a Feat-less game, sure. But aside from that... This is an issue I have with the Artificer in general:

Why use the Artillerist turret to attack, when I can attack? Why use the Iron Defender to attack, when I can? Why use the Alchemical Homonculus to attack, when I can? And especially when my attacks do superior damage, and have a better attack roll?

I like Battle Smith, I do, but the only thing I’d use the Defender for is it’s Reaction.

You attack with the ID because it requires no resources to get that bonus action attack. Why would you invest a feat into something else just to get a slightly better attack? Outside of GWM or SS there are very few overwhelmingly better things to do with your bonus action. ID does decent damage(1d8+Prof), as much as most bonus action attacks outside of the big damage boosters or adding smites. It's the same reason monks are nice. You always get at bonus action unarmed strike with scaling damage for no cost.

In addition, if your ID is a damaging threat it makes it much more likely that enemies will attack it. That's exactly what you want as it has it's own HP recovery mechanism in battle and you can restore it to max HP outside of battle with a cantrip or a spell slot to rebuild it. Any damage your ID is taking is fantastic. Every attack that targets it, is one less targeting the rest of the team.

[Man_Over_Game]

You attack with the ID because it requires no resources to get that bonus action attack. Why would you invest a feat into something else just to get a slightly better attack? Outside of GWM or SS there are very few overwhelmingly better things to do with your bonus action. ID does decent damage(1d8+Prof), as much as most bonus action attacks outside of the big damage boosters or adding smites. It's the same reason monks are nice. You always get at bonus action unarmed strike with scaling damage for no cost.

In addition, if your ID is a damaging threat it makes it much more likely that enemies will attack it. That's exactly what you want as it has it's own HP recovery mechanism in battle and you can restore it to max HP outside of battle with a cantrip or a spell slot to rebuild it. Any damage your ID is taking is fantastic. You want it to bite things and make them attack it.

Well said.

A Paladin can get those feats and do well, sure, but the Artificer won't have to. The Artificer will be the one stacking up ASIs while the Paladin is stuck with a 16 as his best stat.

[Wildarm]

Well said.

A Paladin can get those feats and do well, sure, but the Artificer won't have to. The Artificer will be the one stacking up ASIs while the Paladin is stuck with a 16 as his best stat.

Res(Wis) and Res(Dex) look pretty appealing at Level 12/16 for a Battle Smith once you max Intelligence. You're level 20 saves could look something like +10/+18/+20/+18/+21/+9.

[jaappleton]

Res(Wis) and Res(Dex) look pretty appealing at Level 12/16 for a Battle Smith once you max Intelligence. You're level 20 saves could look something like +10/+18/+20/+18/+21/+9.

Then be within 30ft of a Paladin for +5 to all of those.

[AdAstra]

Here’s my big issue with the Iton Defender:

There’s tons of ways to generate a bonus action attack. The double Scimitar, PAM Feat, Crossbow Expert Feat, doing it with right the Greatweapon Master Feat...

Why would I attack with the Iron Defender? I suppose if I were in a Feat-less game, sure. But aside from that... This is an issue I have with the Artificer in general:

Why use the Artillerist turret to attack, when I can attack? Why use the Iron Defender to attack, when I can? Why use the Alchemical Homonculus to attack, when I can? And especially when my attacks do superior damage, and have a better attack roll?

I like Battle Smith, I do, but the only thing I’d use the Defender for is it’s Reaction.

To add on to what other people have said, I think this may be looking at the issue backwards. The use of a bonus action for the Iron Defender's attack was probably to ensure bonus action attacks can't stack with it. It adds to the Battlesmith's combat power without the risk of being overpowered with the addition of say, a bonus action PAM-GWM attack.

EDIT: Come to think of it, a LOT of the wording of the Iron defender seems to be made with reducing interactions with other classes' features in mind. It takes its action immediately after yours, so it's hard to use it as a fighting mount for small races, and it's not a ready partner for sneak attack until the next round. It does, however, potentially combo with features that can knock enemies prone, I guess. Maybe a reason to use RAW Shield Master if you're willing to invest in strength?

[Spiritchaser]

Well said.

A Paladin can get those feats and do well, sure, but the Artificer won't have to. The Artificer will be the one stacking up ASIs while the Paladin is stuck with a 16 as his best stat.

It’s probably excessive that an artificer could quite reasonably stick with 16 int and 14 con to start with, then never spend a point on either, and end up with 19 in both, int at 12 and con at 16 (caveat: if you ever get there)

Even as variant human this gives you a 14 Dex easily, no mandatory dump stats and all the feats you could want.

Seriously, you could take 6 feats (with variant human) and not feel at all challenged

Prodigy? Warcaster? Resilient Wis? Alert? Observant? Lucky?

Heck. Take them all.

Or different ones, I just randomly threw down some favourites.

No I actually don’t think this is optimal, but it’s certainly reasonable with the current rules.

It probably shouldn’t be.

[AdAstra]

Actually, I think the main thing I'd worry about with the Iron Defender is just how damn disposable the thing is. You can heal it for free, albeit slowly, and for one spell slot of any level you can bring it back to life in no time at all as long as you have the body. And even if you lose it entirely, you can make another with a long rest.

In addition, the possibility of giving your Iron defender some of your infused magic items intrigues me. A DM could certainly say that most wouldn't work because of its anatomy, but things like the Belt of Hill giant strength would probably work, and significantly improve its power. Though you might lose out on those attunement slots to up your saves, it might be worth it.

[Wildarm]

Actually, I think the main thing I'd worry about with the Iron Defender is just how damn disposable the thing is. You can heal it for free, albeit slowly, and for one spell slot of any level you can bring it back to life in no time at all as long as you have the body. And even if you lose it entirely, you can make another with a long rest.

In addition, the possibility of giving your Iron defender some of your infused magic items intrigues me. A DM could certainly say that most wouldn't work because of its anatomy, but things like the Belt of Hill giant strength would probably work, and significantly improve its power. Though you might lose out on those attunement slots to up your saves, it might be worth it.

Crafting or Infusing a set of barding for the IG is the primary boost I'd give it. +1 Chain Barding(17AC) or +1 Half Plate Barding(18AC) are good choices. +1 Mithral Plate Barding(19AC) would be costly but nice as well.

[Spiritchaser]

Actually, I think the main thing I'd worry about with the Iron Defender is just how damn disposable the thing is. You can heal it for free, albeit slowly, and for one spell slot of any level you can bring it back to life in no time at all as long as you have the body. And even if you lose it entirely, you can make another with a long rest.

In addition, the possibility of giving your Iron defender some of your infused magic items intrigues me. A DM could certainly say that most wouldn't work because of its anatomy, but things like the Belt of Hill giant strength would probably work, and significantly improve its power. Though you might lose out on those attunement slots to up your saves, it might be worth it.

The first thing I’d do would be to get it some plate barding, then infuse that barding to +1 (+2 at 12th level)

I suppose there might be some that claim that “barding is not the same as a suit of armor and therefore not a valid target for infusions”
I’d say please keep it real, but...

Anyway, +2 plate on cyberkitty could make for a pretty tanky critter

[MaxWilson]

The first thing I’d do would be to get it some plate barding, then infuse that barding to +1 (+2 at 12th level)

I suppose there might be some that claim that “barding is not the same as a suit of armor and therefore not a valid target for infusions”
I’d say please keep it real, but...

Anyway, +2 plate on cyberkitty could make for a pretty tanky critter

What's the point though? Any damage it takes can be immediately fixed via Mending. The last thing you want enemies to do is to give up on hurting it and switch to attacking a PC.

[Man_Over_Game]

What's the point though? Any damage it takes can be immediately fixed via Mending. The last thing you want enemies to do is to give up on hurting it and switch to attacking a PC.

Well, "Immediately" in real-life terms. In DnD terms, it takes 1 minute, which is useless in combat.

[Wildarm]

What's the point though? Any damage it takes can be immediately fixed via Mending. The last thing you want enemies to do is to give up on hurting it and switch to attacking a PC.

Well, getting it's AC up slightly isn't a bad idea. AC15 is pretty easy to hit for most monsters. A boost to 17-19AC still likely puts it lower than yours. The IG will take hits especially against creatures with only a single attack. They will not waste many attacks on you at disadvantage with the IG protecting you with it's reaction. Your IG has decent HP but not fantastic, it will go down in a fight toe to toe with a CR appropriate brute. The AC may give you enough buffer to not have to waste a spell slot or two rebuilding it during the adventuring day.

[Spiritchaser]

What's the point though? Any damage it takes can be immediately fixed via Mending. The last thing you want enemies to do is to give up on hurting it and switch to attacking a PC.

Put it out front, at least two rounds for them to realize they can’t hit it (likely more) another for them to disengage and get around it

3 rounds in? That’s practically half the fight

[MaxWilson]

Put it out front, at least two rounds for them to realize they can’t hit it (likely more) another for them to disengage and get around it

3 rounds in? That’s practically half the fight

Can't you get basically the same effect without the magical barding cost by just letting it Dodge? Same durability, no bonus action cost, no magical item cost, and either way you're threatening the same thing if they try to bypass you without Disengaging (opportunity attack for around 8-10 damage). I guess it depends upon how your DM roleplays the monsters though--it's apparently quite popular for DMs to make Dodging more obvious than magical armor or to rule that monsters want to attack anything that's attacking them.

[Spiritchaser]

Can't you get basically the same effect without the magical barding cost by just letting it Dodge? Same durability, no bonus action cost, no magical item cost, and either way you're threatening the same thing if they try to bypass you without Disengaging (opportunity attack for around 8-10 damage). I guess it depends upon how your DM roleplays the monsters though--it's apparently quite popular for DMs to make Dodging more obvious than magical armor or to rule that monsters want to attack anything that's attacking them.

As a DM I generally have foes gravitate to what they perceive to be the greatest threat.

My DM is actually really good about this, with more intelligent foes barking out orders to direct minions to pivot and attack in intelligent ways, rabidly aggressive wild animals measuring things by size and perhaps who smells of blood, and slack jawed yokels just hitting whatever is close and doesn’t scare them too much.

[Rukelnikov]

My big takeaway from this UA:

There's nothing wrong with switching Beastmaster-pet commanding from an action to a bonus action. If it's good for the Battle Smith, it's good for the Beastmaster.

Careful with that Max, if you switch it to bonus action, by lvl 5 you'd be doing 4 attacks a round, Action = Att + Extra Attack, BA = Beast Attack + Beastmaster extra attack when pet attacks. Also, the class was written with an Action to command the beast in mind, the lvl 7 feature would become redundant, and the lvl 11 feature would allow 3 ranger + 2 pet attacks per round.

IMO, even if you don't use revised ranger, revised Beastmaster does everything as it should have been in the first place.

Rereading the battlesmith, they could actually function pretty much independently of the defender.
The only real feature they lose is 1/2 of the 14th level features ("Whenever your iron defender uses its Defensive Pounce, the attacker takes force damage equal to 1d4 + your Intelligence modifier"). Which was ridiculous anyways, no other class gets resourceless automatic damage as a reaction.
Battlesmith is so overloaded with features they are practically 2 subclasses in one. You could completely ignore the pet and you would still be effective. The defender is just a free pool of hit points, damage, and utility on top of a strong subclass chassis.

Storm Sorcerer get exactly that at lvl 14, and enemies must also save or be pushed away, there probably some other one around.

To add on to what other people have said, I think this may be looking at the issue backwards. The use of a bonus action for the Iron Defender's attack was probably to ensure bonus action attacks can't stack with it. It adds to the Battlesmith's combat power without the risk of being overpowered with the addition of say, a bonus action PAM-GWM attack.

EDIT: Come to think of it, a LOT of the wording of the Iron defender seems to be made with reducing interactions with other classes' features in mind. It takes its action immediately after yours, so it's hard to use it as a fighting mount for small races, and it's not a ready partner for sneak attack until the next round. It does, however, potentially combo with features that can knock enemies prone, I guess. Maybe a reason to use RAW Shield Master if you're willing to invest in strength?

I don't get this, if its next to an enemy i'm attacking that good enough for SA, isn't it?

***************

Regarding the Iron guardian, I see a lot of people saying its like beastmasters pet but better or that BS has 2 subclasses, but is it? Lets compare its stats to the Giant Constrictor Snake, which seems to be referenced pretty frequently when BM comes up:

• Iron Guardian
  
  • AC = 15
  • HP = 5*lvl + Int + IG's Con(+2)
  • Att = 2+Prof
  • Dam = 1d8+Prof
  
  
• Giant Constrictor Snake
  
  • AC = 14+Prof
  • HP = 4*lvl
  • Att = 6+Prof, 10 ft reach
  • Dam = 1d4+4+Prof, +3d6 save for half

The IG has notably better HP(1*lvl+Int+IG Con), but AC is better for this pet, and attck and damage are basically incomparable.

Granted the IG can attack as a bonus action, but franly, at which point does it stop being useful to spend your BA for a low damage attack with a low chance to hit? My guess is... pretty fast. Arcane Jolt can keep IG's attack relevant a bit longer, but it can only be triggered once per round, so if you hit with your attack, no need to spend BA on IG. Defensive Pounce is its defining feature IMO, it stays strong all the way, and becomes even stronger later on. Immunity to surprised is good, but if you are surprised you cant spend you BA to command it, so it becomes somewhat moot, only for OAs.

Actually, I think the main thing I'd worry about with the Iron Defender is just how damn disposable the thing is. You can heal it for free, albeit slowly, and for one spell slot of any level you can bring it back to life in no time at all as long as you have the body. And even if you lose it entirely, you can make another with a long rest.

In addition, the possibility of giving your Iron defender some of your infused magic items intrigues me. A DM could certainly say that most wouldn't work because of its anatomy, but things like the Belt of Hill giant strength would probably work, and significantly improve its power. Though you might lose out on those attunement slots to up your saves, it might be worth it.

This is true though, its awfully expendable, as long as you win the encounter you can revive it to full for just a 1st lvl slot, and if it didn't die, you don't even spend a 1st lvl slot...

OTOH, what reason does an enemy have for attacking it? its damage will be way below the rest of the party (in 99% of cases), and if it uses its reaction on OAs then its not doing Defensive Pounce, most enemies won't know this though, so they should treat it as threat, but after second round they may pick up to it.

IDK, I think its good, but nowhere as good as a Chain Familiar, and we've already been comparing Locks to BSs for some reason, so I think its pretty ok.

[Trustypeaches]

In comparing the Alchemist’s Homunculus with the BattleSmith Pet...

The Homunculus is substantially easier to keep alive, with a flight speed and ranged attack to keep it out of most enemies attack range or the probably center of AoE spells. However, it cannot apply pressure on enemies as well as the Pupper, who can take opportunity attacks, block spaces as a medium creature, etc.

The Homunculus has more versatile combat usage, able to apply temp Hp to weak targets, provide advantage on skill checks to grapplers and counterspellers, etc. But the Battlepet can consistently apply disadvantage on enemies...

I’d say they’re both good, but I’d probably let the Homunculus “Use an Item” as one of the bonus action commands so that it can function as a potion-delivery service.

[jaappleton]

Does anything prevent a Small character from mounting the Iron Guardian and using the Reaction ability every round?

[Monster Manuel]

Not sure if this has come up in the thread yet or not (I confess I skimmed some of the middle to review in more detail later), but I think there's a discrepancy in some of the wording of the Archivist.

Early on it says that when they manifest their mind, it's intangible and invulnerable.

Later on, while describing Information Overload, it says that attacks on the Mind have disadvantage while it's overloading. Why would that matter, if it is intangible and invulnerable?

Am I reading that wrong, and it's meant that the Artificer themselves grant advantage when attacked while the Mind is Overloading? Or is this a bug?

[Man_Over_Game]

Does anything prevent a Small character from mounting the Iron Guardian and using the Reaction ability every round?

Not really, besides the janktastic mount rules.

You and your mount still have separate turns, so if you want to mount your beast, the beast's movement is separate from yours. This means that you can't do hit-and-run tactics without you Readying your action before your mount moves, and it means that enemies will be more likely to attack you (as any attack that can be made on the mount can instead be directed at the rider).

It's not a terrible combo, though. With some Cavalier levels, for easy modifications to your strategy, higher HP pool, better armor and eventual Mounted Combatant feat, it'd be a good strategy. Just keep in mind that the default Artificer companion is designed to take hits for you, and riding it will basically reverse the roles. And the default Artificer is about as tanky as a Druid.

[Rukelnikov]

Does anything prevent a Small character from mounting the Iron Guardian and using the Reaction ability every round?

That's my plan with a Rock Gnome, the sub seems almost custom made for them.