Origins of Purple Quiddity?

[LadyEowyn]

We’ve already got the author’s word that Xykon, not Redcloak (and not the Snarl) is the main villain of OOTS.

And we now have an established plot where Redcloak and/or his god are the best chance of saving the world in the short term, and the only chance of saving it in the long term.

And Redcloak is not a static character. He’s changed since SOD, and we have some strong indications that he’s changing in ways that could increase his willingness to listen to the Order. He no longer finds revenge on paladins satisfying. Ever since the phylactery switch he very clearly wants to be rid of Xykon ASAP and thus is deeply frustrated by how long ut takes to overcome the defenses of Kraagor’s Gate. This is compounded by the fact that he has no desire to kill the monsters of Kraagor’s Gate (given the origins of goblins, it makes perfect sense that random dungeon fights against monsters would be pretty much Redcloak’s least favourite form of combat).

He feels invested both in Gobbotopia and in broader geopolitical relations between goblinoids (discussing trade agreements with Oona). At the same time, he’s either lying or in denial about the degree to which this conflicts with the Plan (“Monster Hollow” will almost certainly not be okay if the Plan succeeds, or for that matter if it fails and the Gate is destroyed).

It’s getting clearer that he’s going to have to choose between the Plan and the welfare of goblinkind, and clearer that he’s goung to be very conflicted about that decision. Durkon’s information could, ultimately, tip the balance.

[CriticalFailure]

I think it's pretty clear that the comic is building to the Order triumphantly defeating Xykon. Redcloak defeating him would be anti-climatic, plus he far out-levels Redcloak so it would be extremely unlikely. It's also pretty clear that the tension and distrust on Team Evil have been mounting the entire story, so I don't think Redcloak will just defect - there will be some sort of reckoning where all the betrayal and distrust comes to a head.

To elaborate on what's been said, the challenge is for the Order to convince Redcloak to cooperate and negotiate without Redcloak killing them, Xykon killing them, them killing Redcloak, Xykon killing Redcloak, MiTD killing Redcloak, or Redcloak killing himself.

[deuterio12]

We’ve already got the author’s word that Xykon, not Redcloak (and not the Snarl) is the main villain of OOTS.

Well then Xykon better ascend into an uber god about to destroy all the planes, because right now he's small potatoes compared to Hel and whatnot being about to destroy the world.

And we now have an established plot where Redcloak and/or his god are the best chance of saving the world in the short term, and the only chance of saving it in the long term.

And Redcloak is not a static character. He’s changed since SOD, and we have some strong indications that he’s changing in ways that could increase his willingness to listen to the Order. He no longer finds revenge on paladins satisfying. Ever since the phylactery switch he very clearly wants to be rid of Xykon ASAP and thus is deeply frustrated by how long ut takes to overcome the defenses of Kraagor’s Gate. This is compounded by the fact that he has no desire to kill the monsters of Kraagor’s Gate (given the origins of goblins, it makes perfect sense that random dungeon fights against monsters would be pretty much Redcloak’s least favourite form of combat).

He feels invested both in Gobbotopia and in broader geopolitical relations between goblinoids (discussing trade agreements with Oona). At the same time, he’s either lying or in denial about the degree to which this conflicts with the Plan (“Monster Hollow” will almost certainly not be okay if the Plan succeeds, or for that matter if it fails and the Gate is destroyed).

It’s getting clearer that he’s going to have to choose between the Plan and the welfare of goblinkind, and clearer that he’s goung to be very conflicted about that decision.

Maybe just me, but Redcloak didn't seem conflicted at all when he disintegrated the greatest living goblinoid smith after he finished the phylactery replica instead of, you know, ressurecting him so he could keep supporting Gobbotopia.

Actually it's Xykon who needs to order the goblin pope to ressurect any brave goblin who died for the cause.

Basically Gobbotopia is a side project at best, handy to have a big army and the logistics to support them, but following the Dark One's plan is still Redcloak's #1 priority and he's still ready to sacrifice anything and anyone to make it happen.

I think it's pretty clear that the comic is building to the Order triumphantly defeating Xykon. Redcloak defeating him would be anti-climatic, plus he far out-levels Redcloak so it would be extremely unlikely. It's also pretty clear that the tension and distrust on Team Evil have been mounting the entire story, so I don't think Redcloak will just defect - there will be some sort of reckoning where all the betrayal and distrust comes to a head.

You mean like Elan's father ended up just falling out of the airship while screaming how anticlimatic that arc ending was?

Or how Roy defeated the epic lich with his bare hands in their first meeting?

The order already defeated Xykon. It's happened. It's old news.

But they let Redcloak, the true mastermind slip away.

Notice the key detail that the OotS have never faced Redcloak directly. We've seen that Roy can punch the lich into oblivion by himself as long as he has some solid ground to stand on. And we've seen Redcloak kick plenty of ass himself against others. But we've yet to see them directly engage against one another. So if the comic's building up to anything, it's for Redcloak vs OotS.

Actually it's pretty cunning from Redcloak to let Xykon take the spotlight all this long. All the heroes be gonna aiming for the lich, letting the goblin pope advance his agenda behind the scenes.

To elaborate on what's been said, the challenge is for the Order to convince Redcloak to cooperate and negotiate without Redcloak killing them, Xykon killing them, them killing Redcloak, Xykon killing Redcloak, MiTD killing Redcloak, or Redcloak killing himself.

Precisely, Redcloak is the real goal here, Xykon is just a recurring boss that got his time to shine but was shoved to the sidelines pretty hard while being left behind by powercreep. Xykon may show up for a final boss rush, but Redcloak remains the true target, and it'll take a lot more than destroying one of the goblin pople's undead puppets to make him fold.

[CriticalFailure]

Well then Xykon better ascend into an uber god about to destroy all the planes, because right now he's small potatoes compared to Hel and whatnot being about to destroy the world.


You mean like Elan's father ended up just falling out of the airship while screaming how anticlimatic that arc ending was?

Or how Roy defeated the epic lich with his bare hands in their first meeting?

The order already defeated Xykon. It's happened. It's old news.

But they let Redcloak, the true mastermind slip away.

Notice the key detail that the OotS have never faced Redcloak directly. We've seen that Roy can punch the lich into oblivion by himself as long as he has some solid ground to stand on. And we've seen Redcloak kick plenty of ass himself against others. But we've yet to see them directly engage against one another. So if the comic's building up to anything, it's for Redcloak vs OotS.

Actually it's pretty cunning from Redcloak to let Xykon take the spotlight all this long. All the heroes be gonna aiming for the lich, letting the goblin pope advance his agenda behind the scenes.

Precisely, Redcloak is the real goal here, Xykon is just a recurring boss that got his time to shine but was shoved to the sidelines pretty hard while being left behind by powercreep. Xykon may show up for a final boss rush, but Redcloak remains the true target, and it'll take a lot more than destroying one of the goblin pople's undead puppets to make him fold.

Pretty sure the Order aren't going to actually fight any gods, just the mortals/undead mucking around with their plans, which covers the vampires and Team Evil both.

Negotiating with Redcloak in order to fix the rifts is the end goal, and it will most likely only be possible by defeating Xykon. The Order destroying his body once was not successful in permanently destroying him, and for Roy at least the whole comic has built up to a final showdown. Defeating Xykon has also remained the Order's goal throughout the comic even though the motivation for doing so has changed (fulfill Roy's father's blood oath, show Roy's father fighters are cool, prevent Xykon from taking control of a gate and weakening reality, defending Azure city, and finally to stop Redcloak's plan from going through and instead convince him to cooperate). Xykon is the main obstacle/big bad that must be defeated to achieve the goal of getting Redcloak to cooperate, similar to any story in which the heroes must defeat the main obstacle/big bad in order to get some more tangible goal such as a macguffin. Redcloak is always portrayed as less powerful than Xykon - he is the mastermind but he almost certainly won't fulfill the role of final boss. Xykon will probably fill the role of final boss.

The arc with Elan's father falling out of an airship wasn't really anti climatic per se - the whole point was that they defeated him from a meta narrative stand point by not giving him the story he wanted. So it was satisfying and unique in how it fit into the story.

[Squire Doodad]

Actually it's Xykon who needs to order the goblin pope to ressurect any brave goblin who died for the cause.

Xykon doesn't care about any goblins. He would only need to have RC do Clericy stuff on dead goblins if Xykon is fresh out of spells and there's a random high-level uberwarrior goblin he wants to have made into an undead.

Xykon sees RC as means to an end. Just like RC sees Xykon.

[CriticalFailure]

Also I think that Xykon controls the finances and Redcloak can only resurrect goblins if Xykon is willing to pay for it.

[Squire Doodad]

Also I think that Xykon controls the finances and Redcloak can only resurrect goblins if Xykon is willing to pay for it.

Eh, RC definitely has his own private stash of everything relevant.
I suspect that if Xykon were to suddenly be vaporized the second they hit the gate, RC could set up the entire gate ritual on his own, assuming he had a spare sufficiently-leveled Arcane caster.

[CriticalFailure]

Eh, RC definitely has his own private stash of everything relevant.
I suspect that if Xykon were to suddenly be vaporized the second they hit the gate, RC could set up the entire gate ritual on his own, assuming he had a spare sufficiently-leveled Arcane caster.

If I had to guess I would guess that Xykon probably at least tries to be seen to be in complete control of the finances to send the message that he's in control and to reassure himself of it. Though I think as time has gone on Redcloak has had more and more de facto control over finances since he was the one actually managing the whole hobgoblin army and so forth. Basically what I'm saying is that Xykon wants to be able to delegate responsibility for the boring details to Redcloak while maintaining the image that he is in total control of everything, while in actuality Redcloak's willingness to do the managing and deal with the details gives him a certain amount of power and leverage.

[Squire Doodad]

If I had to guess I would guess that Xykon probably at least tries to be seen to be in complete control of the finances to send the message that he's in control and to reassure himself of it. Though I think as time has gone on Redcloak has had more and more de facto control over finances since he was the one actually managing the whole hobgoblin army and so forth. Basically what I'm saying is that Xykon wants to be able to delegate responsibility for the boring details to Redcloak while maintaining the image that he is in total control of everything, while in actuality Redcloak's willingness to do the managing and deal with the details gives him a certain amount of power and leverage.

...honestly?
RC would be in charge of financing, simply because Xykon would instead go off to blow up the countryside after 5 minutes of trying to file paperwork. RC has an attention span that isn't measured in seconds.

[CriticalFailure]

...honestly?
RC would be in charge of financing, simply because Xykon would instead go off to blow up the countryside after 5 minutes of trying to file paperwork. RC has an attention span that isn't measured in seconds.

I mean yes but also Xykon would demand that Redcloak run decisions by him and punish Redcloak if he does something he disagrees with or seems to be too independent, so that he can pretend to be in control of the finances while not actually thinking about them for more than four seconds at a time.

[deuterio12]

Pretty sure the Order aren't going to actually fight any gods, just the mortals/undead mucking around with their plans, which covers the vampires and Team Evil both.

Negotiating with Redcloak in order to fix the rifts is the end goal, and it will most likely only be possible by defeating Xykon. The Order destroying his body once was not successful in permanently destroying him, and for Roy at least the whole comic has built up to a final showdown. Defeating Xykon has also remained the Order's goal throughout the comic even though the motivation for doing so has changed (fulfill Roy's father's blood oath, show Roy's father fighters are cool, prevent Xykon from taking control of a gate and weakening reality, defending Azure city, and finally to stop Redcloak's plan from going through and instead convince him to cooperate). Xykon is the main obstacle/big bad that must be defeated to achieve the goal of getting Redcloak to cooperate, similar to any story in which the heroes must defeat the main obstacle/big bad in order to get some more tangible goal such as a macguffin. Redcloak is always portrayed as less powerful than Xykon -

When Xykon was out of minions, who gathered a new goblinoid army?
When the phylactery was lost, who recovered it?
When Xykon got handed a fake phylactery, who noticed it?

Redcloak may be lower level, but he's far more cunning and ruthless while Xykon plays around too much.

he is the mastermind but he almost certainly won't fulfill the role of final boss. Xykon will probably fill the role of final boss.

So you're really claiming that once once the lich puppet is out of the way, Redcloak the fanatic goblin pope who orchestated this whole thing and had already been pursuing his divine doomsday plan for decades before even meeting Xykon when he was still breathing will just fold over? Really?

I simply find that highly unlikely, short of Xykon pulling some arcane shenigans where he manages to fuse himself with the Snarl or something along those lines.

The arc with Elan's father falling out of an airship wasn't really anti climatic per se - the whole point was that they defeated him from a meta narrative stand point by not giving him the story he wanted. So it was satisfying and unique in how it fit into the story.

And it was pretty satisfying to see Roy tear apart the lich with his bare hands. So it would be pretty unsatisfying if it suddenly takes the whole OotS to crush the puny skeleton again.

Actually considering all the shonen training Roy's been pulling out, it's a lot more likely he'll solo Xykon quite easily.

"Stand back everybody, Xykon's mine"
"Oh yeah, how are you gonna pull that off?"
"I've got this fancy +5 ancestral sword of undead asskicking"
"Disjunction."
"..."
"Hahaha just like old times!"
"...This hand of mine is glowing green."
"Its loud roar tells me to defeat you!"
"Here I go! ERUPTING GREENHILT FINGER!"
"GGAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
"HEAT END!"
"Well, win some, lose some-Wait, why I'm not in my astral plane fortress?"
"You've failed me for the last time." (destroys real phylactery)
"Great, now all we need you to do is betray your god and make this world where goblinoids are treated as exp last forever!"
"... No. My turn now. Implosion."

[CriticalFailure]

When Xykon was out of minions, who gathered a new goblinoid army?
When the phylactery was lost, who recovered it?
When Xykon got handed a fake phylactery, who noticed it?

Redcloak may be lower level, but he's far more cunning and ruthless while Xykon plays around too much.

Yeah Redcloak is the one with the long term planning capabilities and the taskmaster of Team Evil. When Redcloak wanted Team Evil to take a break from the gate quest in order to set up a goblin nation we saw what Xykon does when he doesn't have someone keeping things on track. Though he has shown initiative in tracking down Sereni's diary and making himself an astral fortress, overall he is content to mess around killing things and watching things kill each other. However, when it comes to actual combat Xykon way outclasses Redcloak, literally. It would be pretty anti climatic for the whole comic to build towards a show down with Xykon only to have the final boss be a character who has spent the whole comic trying to keep Xykon placated because he knows he can't take him in battle.

So you're really claiming that once once the lich puppet is out of the way, Redcloak the fanatic goblin pope who orchestated this whole thing and had already been pursuing his divine doomsday plan for decades before even meeting Xykon when he was still breathing will just fold over? Really?

Nope, never said that, that's a straw man argument.

I simply find that highly unlikely, short of Xykon pulling some arcane shenigans where he manages to fuse himself with the Snarl or something along those lines.

Good thing that wasn't my point, then.

And it was pretty satisfying to see Roy tear apart the lich with his bare hands. So it would be pretty unsatisfying if it suddenly takes the whole OotS to crush the puny skeleton again.

Yeah but they didn't manage to destroy him, they've been trying to destroy him permanently since, and it's almost been portrayed as lucky that he was thrown into the gate and destroyed by Dorukan's abjurations.

Actually considering all the shonen training Roy's been pulling out, it's a lot more likely he'll solo Xykon quite easily.

Maybe. The final battles will likely emphasize team work and how the Order has been able to grow as a team and work together. This could still involve Roy mostly soloing Xykon depending on just how much hell is breaking loose at their final showdown.

"Stand back everybody, Xykon's mine"
"Oh yeah, how are you gonna pull that off?"
"I've got this fancy +5 ancestral sword of undead asskicking"
"Disjunction."
"..."
"Hahaha just like old times!"
"...This hand of mine is glowing green."
"Its loud roar tells me to defeat you!"
"Here I go! ERUPTING GREENHILT FINGER!"
"GGAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
"HEAT END!"
"Well, win some, lose some-Wait, why I'm not in my astral plane fortress?"
"You've failed me for the last time." (destroys real phylactery)
"Great, now all we need you to do is betray your god and make this world where goblinoids are treated as exp last forever!"
"... No. My turn now. Implosion."

I mean there are many ways the final showdown can go, and I don't think that killing Xykon is enough to get Redcloak on their side. It's quite possible that Redcloak will do something drastic when he realizes that his plan A is in shambles, like try to destroy the last gate. Which could possibly introduce the snarl as an enemy, which is probably the only thing that could overshadow Xykon as a bigger badder bad. Currently, Xykon is the biggest physical obstacle to negotiating with Redcloak and the big obstacle that the whole team will probably have to rally around. Xykon isn't the only obstacle, but he will probably be the main obstacle to getting Redcloak on board (whether due to Redcloak's plan still being viable as long as Xykon is around or because Xykon realizes Redcloak's betrayal and becomes intent on killing him before the order can get a look in). Yes, there are other obstacles, but I don't think "Redcloak's deepseated emotional issues" qualifies as a big bad.

[LadyEowyn]

The Order (and Thor) are definitely going to have to offer Redcloak and/or The Dark One a better deal than they’re currently prepared to offer. And “patch the existing rifts continuously on a long-term basis so this world will last a while longer” is still to too much of a stopgap to be the way the story ends.

The OOTS’ pitch to Redcloak is going to end up as something more like “the Dark One becomes an equal partner in shaping the world, goblinoids gain metaphysical equality with the other species, and the Snarl is permanently contained because TDO’s participation makes this world a 4-quiddity world”.

I see that happening because the story, and especially HTPGHS, are so heavily and utterly opposed to unjust systems in general, and to the idea of sapient XP-fodder in particular. The information provided by Thor made it very evident that this story isn’t going to end with the heroes successfully upholding the status quo.

Redcloak isn’t the final boss because he and TDO aren’t (only) the source of the danger relating to the Snarl - they’re also the the only path to ending that danger.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm not going to say anything definitive here, but I will say that almost everything about Redcloak would lead me to believe that him actually accepted Durkon's offer, regardless of what actually happens, as being an incredibly big stretch for the character. Again, no final judgement, because we have one more book left, and it may very well be huge and packed to the brim, but I would hold off on assuming that's going to happen just because of this Thor's plans.

And, incidentally, even beyond Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy hindering his cooperativeness, I find it a bit strange so many people actually expect Thor's plan to work.

For one thing he explained it all. Basic rules of storytelling almost guarantee that means it won't happen the way he plans. And even then, it's not actually a permanent solution. Thor admits that even after patching the Rifts new ones will continue to eventually form, he just plans to keep patching them over and over. That's just not a definitive, satisfying note to end on.

Which isn't to say the whole Purple Quiddity thing will amount to nothing, I'm sure it will, it just won't amount to what the characters plan for it to amount to.

[CriticalFailure]

The Order (and Thor) are definitely going to have to offer Redcloak and/or The Dark One a better deal than they’re currently prepared to offer. And “patch the existing rifts continuously on a long-term basis so this world will last a while longer” is still to too much of a stopgap to be the way the story ends.

The OOTS’ pitch to Redcloak is going to end up as something more like “the Dark One becomes an equal partner in shaping the world, goblinoids gain metaphysical equality with the other species, and the Snarl is permanently contained because TDO’s participation makes this world a 4-quiddity world”.

I see that happening because the story, and especially HTPGHS, are so heavily and utterly opposed to unjust systems in general, and to the idea of sapient XP-fodder in particular. The information provided by Thor made it very evident that this story isn’t going to end with the heroes successfully upholding the status quo.

Redcloak isn’t the final boss because he and TDO aren’t (only) the source of the danger relating to the Snarl - they’re also the the only path to ending that danger.

I agree with this. There are so many possible ways things could go but I tend to think that it's pretty likely that green quiddty from within the rifts could come into play, and that there's a fairly high chance of the Order having some contact or interaction with the rift world. Possible due to Redcloak messing with the final gate.

[woweedd]

Redcloak does not control Xykon. That's his delusional confidence in The Plan talking. As seen by his continued lack of eye and how many of his follower's have died for X's amusement, he's ultimately a slave: He just doesn't admit it. That fact has been set in stone ever since what happened to Right Eye. Ultimately, Xykon is the main villain, not him, and, if he tries to turn on him, he's gonna get a nasty surprise. More to the point, Redcloak's a tragic villain, and I see him getting a tragic end. It was not "all worth it". If there is peace for Goblins in the future, and i'm sure there will be...I'm also sure he won't live to see it. Maybe he'll put a Heroic Sacrifice, dying to help bring down Xykon, even if not striking the final blow. My bet is on breaking the Phylatancy just before Xykon kills him, since that will mean the Order still has to do something, namely, kill Xykon, but he'll play a vital role. But the point i'm making is, he's not getting out of this story alive.

[CriticalFailure]

Redcloak does not control Xykon. That's his delusional confidence in The Plan talking. As seen by his continued lack of eye and how many of his follower's have died for X's amusement, he's ultimately a slave: He just doesn't admit it. That fact has been set in stone ever since what happened to Right Eye. Ultimately, Xykon is the main villain, not him, and, if he tries to turn on him, he's gonna get a nasty surprise. More to the point, Redcloak's a tragic villain, and I see him getting a tragic end. It was not "all worth it". If there is peace for Goblins in the future, and i'm sure there will be...I'm also sure he won't live to see it. Maybe he'll put a Heroic Sacrifice, dying to help bring down Xykon, even if not striking the final blow. My bet is on breaking the Phylatancy just before Xykon kills him, since that will mean the Order still has to do something, namely, kill Xykon, but he'll play a vital role. But the point i'm making is, he's not getting out of this story alive.

I don't see why everyone here is so convinced that Redcloak will get some sort of Redemtion=Death treatment, it's literally the most boring and played out and predictable take possible and wouldn't even be very meaningful because Redcloak has already sacrificed everything for the Plan and doesn't have anything to live for outside it. There are a great many things that could possibly happen to him but I think it would be thematically hard to pull off something along the lines of "sacrifices himself helping to bring Xykon down" when his character arc is clearly emphasizing that all the sacrifices he's made up to this point haven't been worth it. Based on the current themes that seem to be highlighted in his arc it seems more thematically fitting to have him alive but facing the realization that in pursuit of the Plan he has sacrificed anything he's cared about and basically been miserable for nothing.

[Rrmcklin]

Redcloak does not control Xykon. That's his delusional confidence in The Plan talking. As seen by his continued lack of eye and how many of his follower's have died for X's amusement, he's ultimately a slave: He just doesn't admit it. That fact has been set in stone ever since what happened to Right Eye. Ultimately, Xykon is the main villain, not him, and, if he tries to turn on him, he's gonna get a nasty surprise. More to the point, Redcloak's a tragic villain, and I see him getting a tragic end. It was not "all worth it". If there is peace for Goblins in the future, and i'm sure there will be...I'm also sure he won't live to see it. Maybe he'll put a Heroic Sacrifice, dying to help bring down Xykon, even if not striking the final blow. My bet is on breaking the Phylatancy just before Xykon kills him, since that will mean the Order still has to do something, namely, kill Xykon, but he'll play a vital role. But the point i'm making is, he's not getting out of this story alive.

Basically my feelings as well. Thing will get better for goblinkind in spite of Redcloak, not because of him. This story is not going to end in a way that validates him.

I'm very confused by the notion that some people have that there's an either or to "Redcloak gets what he wants" or "the status quo for goblins remains in effect."

I don't see why everyone here is so convinced that Redcloak will get some sort of Redemtion=Death treatment, it's literally the most boring and played out and predictable take possible and wouldn't even be very meaningful because Redcloak has already sacrificed everything for the Plan and doesn't have anything to live for outside it. There are a great many things that could possibly happen to him but I think it would be thematically hard to pull off something along the lines of "sacrifices himself helping to bring Xykon down" when his character arc is clearly emphasizing that all the sacrifices he's made up to this point haven't been worth it. Based on the current themes that seem to be highlighted in his arc it seems more thematically fitting to have him alive but facing the realization that in pursuit of the Plan he has sacrificed anything he's cared about and basically been miserable for nothing.

I don't know who this "everyone" is, but I'm thinking "redemption+death" is the nicest thing that could happen to him. Because, I see to have taking the exact opposite thing from his character arc as you, and what you describe as the most thematically appropriate thing, strikes me as incredibly unlikely for how this character has been written and the message the author has been trying to get across with him.

[CriticalFailure]

Basically my feelings as well. Thing will get better for goblinkind in spite of Redcloak, not because of him. This story is not going to end in a way that validates him.

I'm very confused by the notion that some people have that there's an either or to "Redcloak gets what he wants" or "the status quo for goblins remains in effect."

I don't know who this "everyone" is, but I'm thinking "redemption+death" is the nicest thing that could happen to him. Because, I see to have taking the exact opposite thing from his character arc as you, and what you describe as the most thematically appropriate thing, strikes me as incredibly unlikely for how this character has been written and the message the author has been trying to get across with him.

You see his character arc as opposite to "he has been wrong to work with Xykon and make all these sacrifices and compromises with an undead abomination rather than admitting he messed up and backing out?" What do you think he's trying to get across?

[LadyEowyn]

What Redcloak wants, in large part, is to change the status quo for goblins, albeit that he also wants to do that without acknowledging that many of his prior actions have been detrimental to goblins. If the status quo is changed for the better (which it almost certainly will be), he will, at least in part, have gotten what he wants.

I agree that the narrative isn’t going to validate his actions up to this point, and that if he changes his outlook and assists the heroes it’s going to be part of a very painful emotional process for him.

The main reason why I think it’s possible he could change sides is that I don’t see any way for the Snarl situation to be resolved without assistance from either Redcloak and TDO, and a switch of perspective from Redcloak, a character whose development we’ve followed through the whole series, is more interesting that a switch if perspective from TDO, a character the audience has no investment in as of yet.

[Rrmcklin]

You see his character arc as opposite to "he has been wrong to work with Xykon and make all these sacrifices and compromises with an undead abomination rather than admitting he messed up and backing out?" What do you think he's trying to get across?

No, that's right. What I'm disagreeing with you is the notion that it would be thematically appropriate for him to realized all of this in the final hour or something and work towards actually making things better, and just live on in atonement or whatever.

But we already have that storyline - it's V's. And it's actually works as good contrast, one person who was on the wrong path for a long time that culminated in something terrible that they slowly, eventually have their follies wash over them, and committee to being better even if they very well might not ever be able to fix everything. In contrast to a character who will not do that.

Everything about how Redcloak has been written has lead me to believe he is not a character that will ever stop doubling down even in the face of things even when given an option that's much more likely to be better and less risky.

Again, I can't say any of this with 100% certainty because the final book hasn't started yet. But, well, I'm pretty certain about it.

[RatElemental]

No, that's right. What I'm disagreeing with you is the notion that it would be thematically appropriate for him to realized all of this in the final hour or something and work towards actually making things better, and just live on in atonement or whatever.

But we already have that storyline - it's V's. And it's actually works as good contrast, one person who was on the wrong path for a long time that culminated in something terrible that they slowly, eventually have their follies wash over them, and committee to being better even if they very well might not ever be able to fix everything. In contrast to a character who will not do that.

Everything about how Redcloak has been written has lead me to believe he is not a character that will ever stop doubling down even in the face of things even when given an option that's much more likely to be better and less risky.

Again, I can't say any of this with 100% certainty because the final book hasn't started yet. But, well, I'm pretty certain about it.

I don't think Rich is going for a downer ending, which failing to get Redcloak to work with the heroes would be.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't think Rich is going for a downer ending, which failing to get Redcloak to work with the heroes would be.

I've mentioned this before, but I don't believe this to be the case, because I'm fairly certain this story isn't going to be resolved by Thor's plan anyway. Not to say all the talk about Quiddity and the Dark One will amount to nothing, but I doubt this story is going to go "okay, we beat Xykon and got Redcloak on our side, so everything is over."

I just find the insistence that these past revelations means that Redcloak must be redeemed very strange with everything else about the character.

[Dion]

I just find the insistence that these past revelations means that Redcloak must be redeemed very strange with everything else about the character.

I don’t think we’re going to see the classic literary three-act “redemption arc” for redcloak, where we establish flaws, demonstrate conflict, and finally show redemption.

Or maybe we will? Redemption at the end of the movie is the standard trope. Luke found redemption by learning to trust himself, Han found redemption by learning to help his friends, Leia found redemption by learning a new hairstyle.

Maybe redcloak will find redemption with new cape.

[CriticalFailure]

What Redcloak wants, in large part, is to change the status quo for goblins, albeit that he also wants to do that without acknowledging that many of his prior actions have been detrimental to goblins. If the status quo is changed for the better (which it almost certainly will be), he will, at least in part, have gotten what he wants.

I agree that the narrative isn’t going to validate his actions up to this point, and that if he changes his outlook and assists the heroes it’s going to be part of a very painful emotional process for him.

The main reason why I think it’s possible he could change sides is that I don’t see any way for the Snarl situation to be resolved without assistance from either Redcloak and TDO, and a switch of perspective from Redcloak, a character whose development we’ve followed through the whole series, is more interesting that a switch if perspective from TDO, a character the audience has no investment in as of yet.

Yeah I agree with this, and I have a hard time seeing how he would end up coming around in the kind of "makes a snap decision to change his mind and sacrifices himself" situation, if it does happen I think it will require some actual talking to people and be a bit more drawn out.

No, that's right. What I'm disagreeing with you is the notion that it would be thematically appropriate for him to realized all of this in the final hour or something and work towards actually making things better, and just live on in atonement or whatever.

But we already have that storyline - it's V's. And it's actually works as good contrast, one person who was on the wrong path for a long time that culminated in something terrible that they slowly, eventually have their follies wash over them, and committee to being better even if they very well might not ever be able to fix everything. In contrast to a character who will not do that.

Everything about how Redcloak has been written has lead me to believe he is not a character that will ever stop doubling down even in the face of things even when given an option that's much more likely to be better and less risky.

Again, I can't say any of this with 100% certainty because the final book hasn't started yet. But, well, I'm pretty certain about it.

I think Redcloak and V's stories are different enough that it wouldn't be repetitive for Redcloak to live. I also don't think it's likely Redcloak will decide he wants to try to become Lawful Good or something, in the context of his character the specific problems are refusing to take responsibility for mistakes and failures that occur during his leadership, doubling down on his alliance with Xykon and sacrificing goblinoids who he is supposed to be leading in order to keep it going, and doubling down on revenge rather than focusing on improving things for goblins. That isn't to say Redcloak will definitely turn around, maybe he will keep doubling down, but I don't think the line of sacrifices he has made that have been depicted as wrong headed will be followed by him sacrificing his life in a positive light, especially since he's already been shown to not actually value his life outside of completing the plan, being willing to sacrifice not only his life but his soul to do his God's bidding, and not have anything worth living for outside the plan anymore anyways. Maybe I'm wrong but a character sacrificing their life doesn't seem as impactful when they don't actually have anything to live for and already thought that it was pretty likely to happen, or worse.

I don't think Rich is going for a downer ending, which failing to get Redcloak to work with the heroes would be.

I go back and forth on this because on the one had, Redcloak is a tragic villain, while on the other, OOTS seems pretty hopeful in tone and ending with a character, no matter how evil, basically get completely and mentally broken down and then killed after having their utter failure rubbed in their face is pretty depressing, no matter how evil. On the one hand it would really drive home the "tragic villain" story, but on the other, as far as I can speculate now it seems like it would have to pretty strongly highlight how limited negotiation is as a strategy, how limited good is in its ability to address problems, and how past enmities and past choices and are truly intractable and often can't be overcome. These aren't inherently bad things to bring up and I think the comic often suggests some of these ideas, but in my extremely unprofessional opinion OOTS feels like it is at its core more optimistic than pessimistic and I think makes it somewhat less likely that Redcloak will double down on his choices and then die, and probably means that if it does happen it won't occur too close to the end to avoid said downer. But who knows, this is just speculation from an idiot.

I've mentioned this before, but I don't believe this to be the case, because I'm fairly certain this story isn't going to be resolved by Thor's plan anyway. Not to say all the talk about Quiddity and the Dark One will amount to nothing, but I doubt this story is going to go "okay, we beat Xykon and got Redcloak on our side, so everything is over."

I just find the insistence that these past revelations means that Redcloak must be redeemed very strange with everything else about the character.

I don't think it will simply be resolved with Thor's plan, but because the need for cooperation and teamwork is such a big thing in OOTS I think that Team Purple will still be critical to whatever resolution occurs with the snarl. Though really anything could happen with that given how many options the rift world leaves open.

[Schroeswald]

I don’t think we’re going to see the classic literary three-act “redemption arc” for redcloak, where we establish flaws, demonstrate conflict, and finally show redemption.

Or maybe we will? Redemption at the end of the movie is the standard trope. Luke found redemption by learning to trust himself, Han found redemption by learning to help his friends, Leia found redemption by learning a new hairstyle.

Maybe redcloak will find redemption with new cape.

He will be known as Purplecloak after his redemption.