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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    I love this episode. It was the first directed by Michael Dorn, and it's such a moody and atmospheric piece.

    How many episode can you say "everyone was happier at the end - Even Weyoun"?

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    biggrin Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    S5E26: Call to Arms

    The Dominion is sending regular convoys with reinforcements through the wormhole and since they leave Bajor and the station alone, the Federation can't really do anything about it without starting a war.
    Rom and Leeta are planning their wedding.
    Jake has become a reporter for the Federation News Service.
    Quark has started smuggling Cardassian ketchup and Dax wants to know what is going on between Kira and Odo.
    Nog asks Sisko about rumors that the Romulans are declaring neutrality against the Dominion. Sisko calls Starfleet about it and they quickly get confirmation that it's true.

    Starfleet gives him the order to come up with something to block the wormhole. Dax and O'Brien are trying to come up with something and Rom gets the idea to set a minefield with cloaked mines equipped with industrial replicators to create more mines to replace any that are destroyed. Being very small and not having engines, the Dominion should not be able to detect them. But they will only be able to arm the mines once they are all in place or the Defiant would trip them while deploying the rest. The activity will clearly be visible, but Starfleet can't send them any reinforcements to guard the station and the Defiant, and Sisko can only tell the others that any ships are needed elsewhere.

    Odo and Kira have a talk about leaving their personal issues on hold while they need to be focused entirely on the current crisis.

    When the Dominion catches wind of the mining, Weyoun arrives with his cruiser to protest. Either they will remove the mines, or the Dominion will attack the station. And Sisko equally plainly tells him that he won't. They have a long conversation about niceties and compromises, but Sisko is certain Weyoun wasn't buying it and went straight back to assemble his attack fleet. He tells Kira he needs to talk with the Bajoran government because he has to recommend to them to accept the Dominion offer or neutrality.

    The station is getting evacuated, Garak sees Ziyal to the transport, and Rom and Leeta are gettinng wed. Rom asks her to go to Bajor with the other Bajorans but wants to stay on the station to help with the defenses. Sisko gets a call from General Martok that he spotted the Dominion attack force, but his signal gets jammed and Weyoun, Dukat, and Damar offer a last opportunity to surrender. Dax tells Sisko that the Defiant will need at least another hour before they can arm the mines.

    Jake volunteers to help in the infirmary. Garak and Odo talk about the last time the station was attacked, and how Garak had a good opportunity to kill Dukat. "You would should a man in the back?" "Of course. It's the safest way." Odo asks if he regrets that he didn't do it, to which Garak replies that soon everyone on the station will regret it.
    Kira delivers to Sisko the official Bajoran demand that Starfleet leaves the station and goes to her post.

    Dukat and Damar are getting exited about retaking Bajor, but Weyoun calls them both back and reminds them that Bajor has a treaty with Dominion. Martok covers the Defiant until the minefield is completed and armed. Dukat thinks it will just be a minor setback, but Weyoun makes it clear that he thinks this went terrible and has the fleet fall back to regroup. The Starfleet officers evacuate with the Defiant (and also take Garak with them) and Worf goes with Martok on the Rotaran. Before they leave, Dax tells Worf that she will marry him when they both get back.

    Kira calls the attacking fleet to inform them that the Bajorans have taken control of the station and welcome the Dominion on board, and then fries all the station's computers. Rom goes back to his job in the bar but tells Quark that he's there as a spy. He also finds Jake having stayed behind as an independent journalist. Wyoun continues to be sour about the whole situation, with the station being undefendable without reinforcements and their main shipyards in the Alpha Quadrant just having been destroyed by Starfleet. Dukat walks into his old office, where the only thing that was left behind is Sisko's baseball on his desk.
    The Defiant and Rotaran are joining the main Federation and Klingon fleet.

    --

    Great episode, obviously.

    Dukat, Damar, and Weyoun are being established as the new Team Villains. And right from the start there are clear signs that Dukat has very different ideas about his alliance with the Dominion than Weyoun does. As Weyoun is concerned, the Cardassians are now Dominion subjects serving the Founders, but Dukat sees the whole situation as reconquering Bajor for Cardassia. (Though probably primarily for himself.) Also cool to see that Martok is hanging around, though it's a bit contrived that the leading Klingon officer in the most strategically important region is zipping around in a little assault craft instead of a giant battleship. But I admit, a Bird of Prey makes for better stories and nicely mirrors the Defiant.
    S5E10 Rapture becomes relevant here so directly that I very strongly suspect it was planned like this from the start. Sisko and Winn being exactly on the same page here is both fitting given the circumstances, and also works nicely to highlight the seriousness of the situation. When they are pulling on the same rope without any barbed comments, it's five to midnight.
    The self-replicating cloaked minefield does have a whiff of feeling a bit contrived, but it works entirely on principles that had been well established for ages at that point. And the writers really didn't have an easy job, having to come up with something that blocks the wormhole while the Dominion controls the station. but that can also be removed once the time is right, without everyone asking why they didn't do it from the start. So this is really well handled here.
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  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Season 5 Summary

    E1: Apocalypse Rising
    E2: The Ship
    5E3: Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places
    E4: Nor the battle to the strong
    E5: The Assignnment
    E6: Trials and Tribble-ations
    E7: Let he who is without sin
    E8: Things Past
    E9: The Ascend
    E10: Rapture
    E11: The Darkness and the Light
    E12: The Begotten
    E13: For the Uniform
    E14: In Purgatory's Shadow
    E15: By Inferno's Light
    E16: Doctor Bashir, I presume?
    E17: A Simple Investigation
    E18: Business as usual
    E19: Ties of Blood and Water
    E20: Ferengi Love Songs
    E21: Soldiers of the Empire
    E22: Children of Time
    E23: Blaze of Glory
    E24: Empok Nor
    E25: In the Cards
    E26: Call to Arms

    Season 1:
    Season 2:
    Season 3:
    Season 4:
    Season 5:

    Best Episode: S5E14: In Purgatory's Shadow, though it's really hard to pick just one this season.
    Worst Episode: S5E6: Trials and Tribble-ations, a 45 minute joke that I don't find funny and just cringy.

    Going simply by the individual rating, season 5 just beats season 2. And it is really quite good. But personally, I still enjoyed season 2 more. While I really like the Dominion, the whole Federation at War thing isn't really doing much for me. Season 2 had the newly independent Bajor suffer from heavy infighting, which I just found a lot more interesting and engaging. While good for the people, I find it a bit sad that this aspect seems to have completely disappeared from the show and instead made it more Starfleet focused. I'm not sure if it would have provided enough material for 7 seasons, but I actually rather like it when the Federation stays mostly out of the picture. I'm not actually a Star Trek fan.
    However, what we did get this season is lots of Klingon stuff. And that makes for a pretty good substitute for me. I think having the Dominion steamroll the Maquis was a mistake. I don't like what they did with Edington once he left, but I think they might have made for interesting allies in season 6 and 7. Now that the Cardassians are part of the Dominion and the Federation is on full on war with the Dominion, there's actually a real chance for the old Federation colonies gaining independence under the protection of the Federation, or even rejoining the Federation. That would have made for interesting situations, with Starfleet being worried about playing with fire by giving the Maquis support and making promises about border changes before the war is getting even close to an end. That's the kind of things I found interesting about the Bajorans. But for that the Maquis would still need to be around. Just a side note that they are gone, and then one Episode with Sisko and Edington bickering was a real waste of an opportunity.

    Adding Worf to the cast worked out flawlessly. He is only in the show for slightly more than half of the total run, but by now it's very easy to forget that he wasn't in the show from the start.

    We get the destruction of shuttle #5 to #8! Now it's starting to turn into a running gag. And I count E5: The Asignment as O'Brien being tortured for the fifth time. I really like Ziyal when she shows up. It's a character that works very well and could be used for a lot of interesting situation we had not seen on the show yet. Unfortunately, she barely appears at all this season. Another missed opportunity. Though I think Morn now gets mentioned a lot more. Previously he had just been an easily recognizable background alien, but by now he has become a bit of a meme and writers start having fun mentioning off-screen shenaigans involving him. I'd like to know what the internet would have done with him had the show come out 10-15 years later.

    I also think that this is the season where the writers fully commited to making the show a continous series instead of a series of one-shots and two-parters that it had been before. They had been playing a bit with it in seaso 4, but here is becomes a much more firmly established part of the storytelling. You can still watch every episode even if you missed a couple, but there's now substential parts of the story you'd been missing out on.

    Now I came across a list that had all seasons from all shows ranked, and it had DS9 Season 6 rankes as the best Star Trek season of all. (Season 7 also being close to the top.) I'm quite curious to see if it can live up to that claim. (Though then, I'm not really a Star Trek fan and considering my opnion of most of the other Star Trek shows, that doesn't actually set the bar very high for me.)
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Did they ever establish how the self replicating mines self replicate? While it rarely gets brought up im pretty sure replicators dont just create matter from nothing, they need materials to work with along with the energy required. The minefield cant be effectively infinite working with finite materials.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Did they ever establish how the self replicating mines self replicate? While it rarely gets brought up im pretty sure replicators dont just create matter from nothing, they need materials to work with along with the energy required. The minefield cant be effectively infinite working with finite materials.
    Magic.

    There's no other explanation as to how these can work in perpetuity without external refilling.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    In the Cards
    This is one of my favorite episodes, and I had actually watched it very recently before this whole rewatch started, but I didn't mind watching it again. It's the best of the stembolt trilogy.

    Call to Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Dukat walks into his old office, where the only thing that was left behind is Sisko's baseball on his desk.
    This is my favorite part of the episode. Great callback to "The Siege" and the prop gets used to even greater effect with Dukat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I think having the Dominion steamroll the Maquis was a mistake. I don't like what they did with Edington once he left, but I think they might have made for interesting allies in season 6 and 7. Now that the Cardassians are part of the Dominion and the Federation is on full on war with the Dominion, there's actually a real chance for the old Federation colonies gaining independence under the protection of the Federation, or even rejoining the Federation. That would have made for interesting situations, with Starfleet being worried about playing with fire by giving the Maquis support and making promises about border changes before the war is getting even close to an end. That's the kind of things I found interesting about the Bajorans. But for that the Maquis would still need to be around. Just a side note that they are gone, and then one Episode with Sisko and Edington bickering was a real waste of an opportunity.
    Interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I also think that this is the season where the writers fully commited to making the show a continous series instead of a series of one-shots and two-parters that it had been before.
    Yeah, this episode and "The Search" are probably the two most pivotal points in the show. The start of Season 3 reveals that the Founders are Odo's people and that shapes his character arc and the conflict with the Dominion, but it's not really until the Season 5 finale that everything comes together to change everything in the show from here on out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Did they ever establish how the self replicating mines self replicate? While it rarely gets brought up im pretty sure replicators dont just create matter from nothing, they need materials to work with along with the energy required. The minefield cant be effectively infinite working with finite materials.
    It's frequently brought up that replicators work like transporters. They create matter from energy.

    There is the issue of their infinite energy supply, but perhaps they are collecting it from space particles or the wormhole or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Magic.

    There's no other explanation as to how these can work in perpetuity without external refilling.
    After I watched this episode I sat there for a while trying to come up with ways for it to work, but all of the solutions just resulted in "Voodoo Shark" explanations that raise more questions than they answer.

    Like saying they absorb the energy of the explosion of the nearby mines to refill their fuel, which implies energy gathering technology that would immediately be built into shield technology to create shields that cannot go down.

    It's a fun idea, but realistically the Dominion would just station a squadron of ships nearby and have them bombard the mines until they eventually run out of power. Even if it took a month it would be worth it.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Did they ever establish how the self replicating mines self replicate? While it rarely gets brought up im pretty sure replicators dont just create matter from nothing, they need materials to work with along with the energy required. The minefield cant be effectively infinite working with finite materials.
    I don't think that they did so in the show, but the DS9 technical manual says:
    The replicator system was designed to accomodate a swarm detonation of up to twenty mines and still maintain the total shell. The replicator was a kludge of Cardassian and Starfleet types and included a raw-matter supply container able to contribute enough mass to build one sixty-fifth of a complete mine. Mass for any one new mine was transported through the replicator's subspace emitters from as many mines away as was necessary, in a bucket-brigade system. As distributed over the entire shell, enough mass was stored to replace over 2,500 mines. In the event the mass supply dwindled below 85 percent, the replicator sections were designed to extract particles from the zero-point vacuum domain to replenish the system. The threshold was set deliberately high because of the long lead time required to produce small numbers of particle pairs.
    Regardless, it's basically magic, as other people have mentioned. It's also not even something that should be all that difficult to penetrate if you wanted to force your way through.

    It's frequently brought up that replicators work like transporters. They create matter from energy.
    Star Trek's never really decided whether transporters create matter or just move it from one place to another - you have things like the William T. / W. Thomas Riker or the good-Kirk bad-Kirk split which indicate that transporters, when functioning normally, disintegrate your current body and create a duplicate on the receiving end rather than disintegrating your current body and reassembling it at the destination, but you also have things like Tuvix where you for some reason have to destroy Tuvix to restore Tuvok and Neelix, and there's also some indications that replicators have a mass reserve which they draw upon to create requested items rather than simply drawing upon the ship's power supplies (for example, the quote from the DS9 technical manual given above, or the Voyager episode where Chakotay offered Janeway a replicated gold watch and was told to recycle it to conserve replicator resources).
    Last edited by Aeson; 2019-09-29 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Also cool to see that Martok is hanging around, though it's a bit contrived that the leading Klingon officer in the most strategically important region is zipping around in a little assault craft instead of a giant battleship. But I admit, a Bird of Prey makes for better stories and nicely mirrors the Defiant.
    There is some precedent for this in naval history. In 1943 and 1944 Admiral Spruance commanded the Fifth Fleet from the cruiser Indianapolis rather than from one of his dreadnoughts or aircraft carriers. And it would be very Klingon for Martok to demonstrate his contempt for the Jem'Hadar by going into battle against them in a Bird of Prey rather than a more powerful ship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    There is some precedent for this in naval history. In 1943 and 1944 Admiral Spruance commanded the Fifth Fleet from the cruiser Indianapolis rather than from one of his dreadnoughts or aircraft carriers. And it would be very Klingon for Martok to demonstrate his contempt for the Jem'Hadar by going into battle against them in a Bird of Prey rather than a more powerful ship.
    Especially when sisko is gallivanting about in the defiant. I mean sure its a pretty advanced vessel, but its hardly a battlecruiser. And if some human can show off his courage by fighting in an oversized shuttlecraft, THEN SO SHALL I!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Thinking about it some more, I think Martok might actually be a general only on paper. While he wasn't officially demoted after being escaping from prison, his new assignment made it clear that he effectively was in every way that matters.
    Not sure if this changes at any point during the next two seasons, but he doesn't seem to be a member of the Klingon high command, any more than Sisko is of the Starfleet Admirality. In practice he seems to be acting as a captain with a unique level of experience about dealing with the Dominion. Like Sisko.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Thinking about it some more, I think Martok might actually be a general only on paper. While he wasn't officially demoted after being escaping from prison, his new assignment made it clear that he effectively was in every way that matters.
    Not sure if this changes at any point during the next two seasons, but he doesn't seem to be a member of the Klingon high command, any more than Sisko is of the Starfleet Admirality. In practice he seems to be acting as a captain with a unique level of experience about dealing with the Dominion. Like Sisko.
    You are totally right.

    Again, we are talking about Klingons, so who knows the details about their command structure. But Martok certainly seems understaffed for his position as a "military leader".

    However, I think it display that Martok's role might not necessarily be one of military command, but instead some sort of Diplomatic Liaison. General is his rank, not his position. It ensures no other Klingon flag officer can arrive and swing their rank around in a way that could prove displeasing to Starfleet, since there is effectively no one who can outrank the commander specifically hand picked by DS9 commander

    Martok's presence doubles as a protection against the Dominion AND protection against Klingon politics.

    It is also repeated multiple times in the series that Martok has Gowron's ear. Since Martok is a warrior from low heritage, he isn't a political threat to Gowron, so it's likely that Gowron implicitly trusts him more than he would any other general from a Great House. Having your liaison being part of Gowron's inner circle must be a great boon to DS9.

    The reason he doesn't have much military bite under his command is probably because it isn't felt necessary at first. Klingons were openly fighting against the Dominion already and had their military base and deployments already setup near the Cardassian border. There is no need to upset and existing chain of command and probably politically-minded deployment schedule with what is effectively an Outsider that came back from the dead.

    Second, and that is also likely, is that Gowron himself was doubting Martok's judgement and capabilities after his time in a prison camp. The Rotarran was probably a poisoned gift meant to either discredit Martok at low cost to the Empire and Gowron, or allow him the chance to prove he can turn a loser ship with a loser crew around, which would vindicate Gowron's trust in him.

    Spoiler for early season 6

    Spoiler
    Show
    Please note also that after the Klingons proved to be the ultimate decisive victory-maker in Sacrifice of Angel's following Martok's suggestions to Gowron, the next thing we learn is that Gowron is appointed Supreme Commander of the 9th Fleet, a joined Starfleet/KDF battlefleet positioned at the single most strategic position of the entire Alpha Quadrant.

    Gowron won again politically and rewarded those who made him win


    All in all, I see all of that more from Gowron's machinations than anything else. The man is smart when he isn't blinded by jealousy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    I don't think that they did so in the show, but the DS9 technical manual says:


    The replicator system was designed to accomodate a swarm detonation of up to twenty mines and still maintain the total shell. The replicator was a kludge of Cardassian and Starfleet types and included a raw-matter supply container able to contribute enough mass to build one sixty-fifth of a complete mine. Mass for any one new mine was transported through the replicator's subspace emitters from as many mines away as was necessary, in a bucket-brigade system. As distributed over the entire shell, enough mass was stored to replace over 2,500 mines. In the event the mass supply dwindled below 85 percent, the replicator sections were designed to extract particles from the zero-point vacuum domain to replenish the system. The threshold was set deliberately high because of the long lead time required to produce small numbers of particle pairs.
    I love the fact that someone, somewhere, got to write that stuff. I bet that was a lot of fun for that writer.

    I also love that that indicates that they seeded the field with 162500 mines and that, sum total, they could only replicate/ replace 2500 of them. If this was a real world application, its like... why not just make another 2500 of them to start and not worry about the complicated replication garbage?

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Thing is, even with the Federation bull**** science you can't make matter out of nothing. You need matter or energy.

    And the amount of energy you need is proportional to the mass of the object you create. Thing is, you need to spend that mass in antimatter to generate the energy necessary to generate that mass.

    I think the best way of going at it might just be what someone else has proposed as an idea. Have the minefield use any sort of wreckage available around to generate more mines.

    Alternatively, we know the Wormhole is located in the Denorios Belt, a charged plasma field. So maybe the mines are using the mass and energy from that belt to constantly recharge.

    Huh. That would work.

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    biggrin Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    S6E1: A Time to Stand

    It's been three months since the start of the war and the Federation fleet is looking quite battered. Martok and Worf are visiting the Defiant and Dax is thrilled to see Worf again. There are also news that another Federation fleet has been almost completely wiped out and Bashir is telling Sisko that they need another strategy to fight this war.

    Dukat is very confident that the Federation will soon be beaten and annexed into the Dominion. But while Weyoun is very pleased that Bajoran civilians are returning to the station to reopen their stores, Dukat and Damar find the very thought insulting. Kira is appealing to Weyoun to return security on the station to the Bajorans which the Cardassians are completely opposed to. Damar doesn't make any secret that he has no respect for Weyoun and only does what Dukat tells him. Weyoun privately asks Kira if Odo is taking notice that he is doing everything he can to create friendship and cooperation between the Dominion and the Bajorans. When she's gone, Weyoun reminds Dukat that they really need the wormhole reopened to get new supplies of White for the Jem'Hadar.

    When the Defiant makes a stop at a space station, Sisko is told that he's taken off the Defiant and get his new assignment later that day. In the meantime, Dax tells him to call his father with the news about Jake. Meanwhile Jake is trying to get an interview with Weyoun, but he refuses because he's seen what Jake has been writing so far and considers it enemy propaganda.

    The admiral on the station briefs Sisko, Dax, and Bashir that they found the depot where the Dominion is storing its remaining supplies of White. And he wants Sisko and his crew to take the Jem'Hadar ship they salvaged a year earlier to sneak past the defenses to destroy it.

    The crew figures out to control their ship but they get intercepted by a Starfleet ship, which takes out their communications systems with its first shot. They can't outrun it and it keeps pursuing them into Dominion space. Sisko gives the order to shot at its weapons to make it withdraw. It works, but the fight got spotted by three Jem'Hadar ship in the area that pursue the fleeing Starfleet ship.

    Dukat is showing signs of being already more unhinged than usual. Kira is certain that he plans to occupy Bajor again. Odo has nothing to do, but Kira tells him he should just go to Weyoun and tell him that he wants his security force back, which he probably wouldn't be able to refuse. Odo gives in and goes to Weyoun, and he immediately complies with the request, shooting down Dukat's complaints. Though in turn he would really like Odo to join the station's command staff. Kira isn't happy about that, but Odo assures her that he knows how to avoid becoming their pawn.

    Sisko takes the ship to the depot and has it line up for getting resupplied with White. The station beams over full crates and recieves the ship's empty crates, which are filled with explosives. Unfortunately something goes wrong and the station doesn't give them immediate clearance for departure and keeps them trapped inside the shields. They make it out very narrowly between the initial detonation taking out the shields and the whole station blowing up, but they lose their warp drive in the process.

    --

    Great episode. But we're expecting nothing less from season openers and finals by now. Having them gone from the station for months between seasons is a nice move, since the previous episode would originally have been aired half a year before this one. Season break is the perfect place to put a narratively sensible time skip. I felt like this helps communicating a feeling of the characters really getting the need to finally get back home. They have not seen the station for months, and so have the viewers. Cool idea to work with the medium.

    I also really like the plan to destroy the depot. It's very different from anything we've seen in Star Trek before, but it just feels very sensible and fitting. It builds nicely on the idea that Jem'Hadar ships have no view screens and they just do things automatically and without asking questions. Sure, you could have just taken a captured ship and simply fly into a station of any species as if you are supposed to be there. But with the Jem'Hadar it just seems really fitting. They also don't call when they may or may not have found something suspicious about the empty creates they got. They just don't open the shields and give permission to depart. This is also supported by the previous scene in which they encounter the patrol that chases after the Starfleet ship. They didn't bother to check on the damaged ship fleeing from the Federation. They don't care about each other and are only interested in performing their assigned tasks.

    This episode picks up what the previous already hinted at, which is that Dukat doesn't seem to have any clue who he allied with. He sees the Dominion as temporary allies of convenience, while in fact their deal is that he submits to them. I have the feeling that Dukat is the only person who makes Weyoun stop pretending to smile. It's somewhat unclear if Weyoun really believes in the Dominion as a benevolent provider of peace and prosperity, or if his treatment of the Bajorans has no other purpose than to suck up to Odo. Which I like about Weyoun. He is really difficult to read up to this point. You know that he is lying and deceiving all the time, but even then I find it really hard to untangle what he is lying about and to what possible purpose. Garak doesn't allow himself to be nailed down to any facts, but he never seems to be disguising his emotions. With Garak you always have a good idea what he feels and what he wants. But Weyoun is just too weird. Which is great.

    Speaking of Garak, I feel he really didn't need to be in this episode. He does actively participate in events, but I don't think that those moments were really necessary for the story. Instead I am getting the impression that they really want to make Garak a more permanent member of the main cast. Which is of course a good thing, but I find it interesting to think how little he actually appeared in the first three seasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    I love the fact that someone, somewhere, got to write that stuff. I bet that was a lot of fun for that writer.

    I also love that that indicates that they seeded the field with 162500 mines and that, sum total, they could only replicate/ replace 2500 of them. If this was a real world application, its like... why not just make another 2500 of them to start and not worry about the complicated replication garbage?
    2500 until the magic zero point energy particle production kicks in.

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    Weyoun is utterly loyal to the founders. Its bred deep into his very genome to worship them and believe that they are whats best for the universe. Odo is a confusing glitch because he is one of the founders, but he isnt a part of the founders but he still IS one of his gods. So he definitely wants to obey when odo says he wants something. It is possible that he is doing a balancing act between appeasing odo and making sure not to fail in the mission the other founders gave him. Treating the bajorans well is just good sense from all angles. He already HAS the cardassians as "allies" (subjects) so he is showing the benevolent aspect of the dominion to the bajorans. "Do as we say, dont fight back, and everything is hunky dory!" That makes his job easier, gives him justification to do terrible things if the bajorans do anything wrong, "I tried, and TRIED to be kind to your people and this is how you repay the dominions benevolence? Ah well, mass execution time. This is all your own fault, you know." And lets him make odo happy all at the same time.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    In this case he can conveniently blame everything on Dukat. He doesn't have to make any threats. And even better, he can present the Dominion as the power that can protect the Bajorans from the Cardassians like the Federation did.
    However, sooner or later they will have to put their foot down and get rid of Dukat. He's a useful idiot now, but will be too much trouble in the long run. I wonder if we're going to see signs of that during this season?
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    biggrin Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    S6E2: Rocks and Shoals

    The damaged commandeered Jem'Hadar ship is tracked down by more Dominion ships and they try to escape into a nebula. With basically all systems gone, the ship crashes into a planet, coming to a rest in the waters close to a coast. The pursuing Jem'Hadar also were unable to avoid the planet, crashing as well, with the Vorta mortally wounded and the top officers killed. They also have only a single box of white that is almost empty.
    The Starfleet crew is doing only little better, with Dax being critically injured and their ship sunken below the water. However, Bashir thinks Dax is not in immediate danger and should recover with rest.

    Garak and Nog go looking for water and get captured by the Jem'Hadar. They get taken to the Vorta who wants to use them to bargain for medical treatment from their doctor.

    Jake interviews Kira and Odo about Dominion engineers helping out on Bajor since the planet is cut off from Federation supplies. He also mentions a planned protest against the Dominion, which Kira and Odo think they need block to not give Dukat any excuses.

    O'Brien is trying to build a communicator to call for rescue. The sentry reports that Garak and Nog have not returned so Sisko takes O'Brien and a security redshirt to look for them. They are spotted by the Jem'Hadar and one of them starts shoting at them against orders. The leader takes a while to get everyone to stop firing and orders the whole team to fall back to their camp. But several of them are too starved to use their stealth ability, so the one who shot first is sacrificed to cover their retreat.

    Kira talks with the Vedek who was organizing the protest to explain why they need to leave the Dominion be for now, but the Vedek tells her that they have to start doing something to stop another occupation. And Kira hasn't any good reply what else they could be doing.

    The Jem'Hadar leader goes to the Starfleet camp to give Sisko the terms to exchange him and Bashir for Garak and Nog. Sisko quickly catches on that this Jem'Hadar doesn't have any love for his Vorta either and tries to get friendly with him. And he gets the Jem'Hadar to give his word that Sisko and Bashir are allowed to go free after the meeting, even if the Vorta changes his orders.

    Kira and Odo watch the promenade in case there are any protests. Jake shows up because the Vedek called him to be there, and she arrives shortly after to hang herself, which greatly shakes Kira.

    After Bashir treats the Vorta, he orders the Jem'Hadar out to call with Sisko in private. He only has a single vial of White left and once it's used up the Jem'Hadar will quickly start murdering everyone. To save himself, he will tell the Jem'Hadar to attack the Starfleet camp in the morning and give Sisko all the information he needs to set up an ambush. Then they can have the broken communicator that the Jem'Hadar salvaged from their ship and he will be their prisoner.

    Kira talks with Odo and connvinces him that they have to start doing something to fight back against the Dominion.

    The next morning the Jem'Hadar are walking into Sisko's ambush, but he has everyone wait and calls to the Jem'Hadar leader. He offers to take them prisoner and have them sedated by Bashir until they can get a new supply of White. But the Jem'Hadar refuse to surrender under any circumstances, ever after their Vorta ordered them to walk into a trap. They knew that he tried to get them killed from the start. He orders his men to charge and they are all gunned down, killing one of the redshirts.
    When the dust settles the Vorta comes out of his hiding place and tells Sisko that if he had had two more vials, both sides would be switched now.

    --

    Another really good episode. We're now in full on meta-plot. The story doesn't really have anything to do with the previous one, but continues right where it left off.

    This is probably the slimiest Vorta we've seen yet. I would say given the circumstances, there really weren't any good alternatives for him and it's not like his actions were really that reprehensible. But he really had to rub it in from the first moment to the last. He is completely unconcerned about the Jem'Hadar and seems to actually despise them, though in this situation he probably also fears them. He's just horrible.

    Why Dax spends the entire episode just lying in the background I do not know. This seems to be a frequent thing with this character. At least this time the episode is not about her.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Terry Farrell has a skin condition that means she can't be exposed to sunlight too much.

    So on site filming wasn't an option for her.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Keeping her at home for the first episode obviously wouldn't have been an option. But a broken foot would have done the job of keeping her confined to the cave as well. Dax could have been fiddling with O'Brien on a communicator instead of lying semi-consciously in the background. By itself it's not a bad story element, but I feel that Dax gets hit with these things the most. Though addmitedly, there is little reason to complain when you look over at O'Brien.
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    I think we have seen a few times now that the jemhadar will kill vorta for various reasons so its not that surprising that this one both doesnt care about their lives, being vat grown disposable soldiers after all, and is worried about what will happen to him since there is a long history of his kind getting killed in scenarios like this. It may also be a subconscious thing where the vorta realize they arent any different than the jemhadar to the founders. Both are cloned pawns that will be sacrificed instantly to gain the founders some advantage and they will likely never care about the dead vorta along the way.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    This episode really supports my suspicion that the Dominion is really a haphazard and fragile chaos, that just barely manages to maintain an appearance of order and efficiency through its military might. When the Jem'Hadar show up they lay waste to everything and that either makes their targets submit without a fuss or they are straight up wiped out.
    In S3E1: The Search, the Diminion trader makes it sound like the Dominion is actually pretty hands off with worlds that have submitted. If they have to inform the Dominion of something they send a message to a relay station and either a Vorta will show up to deal with the matter, or won't. The Vorta give them Dominion law and they follow it, or "they send in the Jem'Hadar. And then you die."

    This may look ordered and disciplined from the outside, but every look we get into its internal workings shows nothing of that. The Dominion seems to be held together only by the Vorta and Jem'Hadar being unable to defy a Founder and brutal terror. The control the Vorta have over the Jem'Hadar is so weak that they are frequently more of a burden than an asset. When we see Vorta negotiating for anything, their own Jem'Hadar usually seem to be the main problem they have to handle.

    This is something that can be seen in many dictatorships of the 20th century, but I am reminded particularly of the Germans. They had a mythical reputation for order and efficiency, and their military successes seemed to prove it. But internally it was a complete mess of confused chaos and infighting. It's all a lie, maintained by intimidation.

    This is something I will be keeping an eye on, especially in season 7.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I think we have seen a few times now that the jemhadar will kill vorta for various reasons so its not that surprising that this one both doesnt care about their lives, being vat grown disposable soldiers after all, and is worried about what will happen to him since there is a long history of his kind getting killed in scenarios like this. It may also be a subconscious thing where the vorta realize they arent any different than the jemhadar to the founders. Both are cloned pawns that will be sacrificed instantly to gain the founders some advantage and they will likely never care about the dead vorta along the way.
    And they do have a point. I remember in 'Soldiers of the Empire' (Season 5 Ep 21) the crew of Martok's new ship complaining bitterly that there was no honour in fighting the Jem'Hadar for precisely these reasons ( and looking back fondly on the good old days of fighting the Cardassians)

    " Ah, but you can respect a Cardassian. Because he fights for his people. And he follows a code, just like we do. But not the soldiers of the Dominion, not the Jem'Hadar. No, they don't fight for anything. They fight because they're designed that way, because they're programed to fight."
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2019-10-02 at 05:23 AM.
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    The interesting thing is, you would think the founders could easily correct the biggest issue with an adjustment to the jemhadar programming. Simply input, "Obey vorcha unless it runs counter to the protection or orders of the founders" or something along those lines. Basically, they would be just as loyal to the vorcha then and still be protected from any theoretical rebellion. I think the problem there is, the vorcha see the founders as gods, they probably cant even comprehend the idea that the programming the jemhadar get is flawed and even suggesting they screwed up is heresy to them, this is just how it is meant to be, and the founders dont experience this side effect, so as long as the dominion keeps winning they have no reason to investigate any issues. Just decant vorcha clone 75 out of a tube and send him back with a fresh batch of jemhadar if there was a hiccup.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The interesting thing is, you would think the founders could easily correct the biggest issue with an adjustment to the jemhadar programming. Simply input, "Obey vorcha unless it runs counter to the protection or orders of the founders" or something along those lines. Basically, they would be just as loyal to the vorcha then and still be protected from any theoretical rebellion.
    The Founders may see the Jem'Hadar hostility to the Vorta as a feature rather than a bug. Yora compared the Dominion's internal disorganization to Nazi Germany and it seems an accurate comparison but the thing is much of the Nazi's administrative chaos was intentional. Hitler wanted his subordinates feuding with each other as it gave him power over them (as the arbiter of their disputes) and kept them divided and unable to conspire against him. The Founders might be playing a similar game. Keep the Vorta and Jem'Hadar at each other's throats, so they can never pose a threat to the Founders.

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    One of the throughlines of the JemHadar storyline in DS9 though is that there is MORE than just their programming. That their programming is powerful, and to the first observation, makes them the soulless, thoughtless killing machines, but over the course of the series the cracks start to show. They start to rebel against suicidal orders, turn against the Vorta, a few manage to cut themselves free. I think the instances of rebellion against the Vorta are part of that throughline. That even the best programming will fail because this is the star trek universe! and peace and free will are the universal constants that everyone strives toward.

    I would argue that they ARE programmed exactly like you say. "Follow the Vorta unless that order endangers a founder" but because the Vorta are there, day after day, actually giving the orders that prove flawed and fallible, the turning against the Vorta are symptoms of the inevitable collapse of the programming.

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    S6E3: Sons and Daughters

    Sisko and crew have been rescued by Martok and are returning to the starbase. Martok and Worf are getting five new crewmen to replace the fifteen they have lost, and one of them is an old man and three pretty much children, one of which is Worf's son Alexander. Martok asks Worf about their relationship and Worf doesn't know either why Alexander became a Klingon soldier. Martok tells him he really needs to sort this out. But Alexander isn't very willing to talk with him.

    Kira and Odo are conspiring to look for new people for their resistance group. Jake noticed something going on and wants in. Dukat and Damar are returning from a trip to Bajor and brought Ziyal back with them. She tells Kira that living on Bajor didn't really work out as she hoped.

    The Klingons find Alexander amusing and taunt him, and when he fights back he gets into a knife duel with another warrior. He's doing pretty well, but when he gets a good hit the other warrior gets so angry that Worf thinks he has to interfere and confines them both to their quarters. The crew isn't happy with that and neither is Martok. He doesn't think Alexander would have been killed and some cuts and bruises are part of life on a Klingon ship. Alexander then embarrasses himself further by calling an enemy attack because he forgot to put his terminal back to regular mode after the last drill. Worf tries to give him some sword practice but that doesn't go well either.

    Ziyal asks Kira to try to get along with Dukat so she can show them some of her works from art school. She tries, and it goes reasonably well. More Cardassians are coming to the station for talks about additional economic aid to Bajor, which Kira finds unsettling. Damar comes by at her quarters to deliver a gift from Dukat, and it turns out to be a dress that she actually really likes before she realizes she is getting far too friendly with the Cardassians.

    Martok finds Alexander practicing his combat moves and wants to have some good answers why he is on his ship. Alexander doesn't want to say and Martok grumbles and tells him he is as annoying as his father. He wanted to first talk to him before making a decision, but with answers like this he agrees with orf to have him thrown off the ship and transferred to one of the freighters in the convoy. Alexander goes to Worf to confront it, but they get attacked by Jem'Hadar and they both get to their posts on the bridge. They get critically hit and Alexander volunteers to go fix a leak, and the Klingon he fought with volunteers to go with him. Once the attackers are destroyed,

    Ziyal goes to Kira to ask where she had been the last night, and she apologizes and tells her that she just can't be friends with Dukat.

    After the battle Worf apologizes to Alexander for never having visited him on Earth and promises to try to teach him everything he can. Martok is also impressed by him and he and Worf introduce him into their house.

    --

    Pretty decent episode, I would say. Not one of the highlights of the show, and I think irrelevant for the overall continuity, but this is very solid regular material. And I just love this Klingon stuff.

    Both conflicts here are very believable. Alexander signing up as a Klingon soldier to simultaneously spite his father, get his attention, and also impress him. And in such a situation, it really makes sense that he doesn't want to explain himself. Emotionally his choice is relatable, but rationally its contradictory. He doesn't have any good explanation that doesn't sound petulant. So he blocks both Worf and Martok, which doesn't make it any better.

    Kira being conflicted between her friendship with Ziyal and not letting herself become Dukat's flunky is also very solid. She really wants to please Ziyal and she makes an honest effort, but Dukat doesn't accept polite distance and constantly demands a close personal relationship on his own terms. This just isn't acceptable for Kira under any circumstances and so she makes the decision to be honest with Ziyal and tells her that between her and Dukat, her choice has to be her father.

    Martok really shines this episode. As Klingons go, he really is quite a compassionate and understanding person. As a military commander he doesn't tolerate any weakness or hesitation, but we always see him getting involved and making an effort to work on the problems with the people under and around him. He knows that the people he is working with are not the pride of the Empire and he doesn't hold them to the standards of elite warriors but instead is willing to work with them to see what potential they have. Worf's skills as a warrior are without question, but he really isn't well socialized for a Klingon. (Which actually makes him a really poor choice for executive officer on a Klingon ship.) Worf is more work from him than other Klingons would be, but it doesn't bother him and he sees the strengths that Worf is bringing to his crew and to his house. I'm not quite sure whether this makes him a bit too human, or adds depth and complexity to Klingon society. But it certainly makes for a sympathetic character.
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    S6E4: Behind the Lines

    Sisko's superior gives him new intelligence that Starfleet has discovered that the Dominion is tracking their movements with a long range sensor station, and he wants Sisko to plan an attack to destroy it.

    On the station, Kira and Rom are happy to see Damar getting really nervous about a document he lost containing secret reports about the critically low supply of White that is left for the Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant, containing his personal notes that they should consider poisoning the last ration to prevent them rampaging through Cardassian territory. Which Rom had stolen and left where the Jem'Hadar would find it. And it doesn't take long for a fight to break out. Damar survives, but Dukat is furious, and Weyoun has to remind him to at least pretend in public that they are good friends.

    Odo is also pretty upset about it because when Kira and Rom brought up the plan he was against it, and she didn't warn him that they would do it anyway. Odo gets visisted by the Changeling leader, who turns out to have been in the Alpha Quadrant the entire time, though she claims that to have left the running of the war to the Vorta. She then goes to see Dukat and Weyoun to give Dukat a kick in the ass for getting the minefield cleared, and with her presence Weyoun doesn't hide his own annoyance with Dukat either. She then keeps pestering Odo to have more contact with his people and to meld with her.

    He doesn't show up for work the next day and Damar is more than happy to tell Kira that he's been with the leader since yesterday. She goes to see him and he assures her that he didn't give anything away about their secret sabotage, but he thinks that by getting a better understanding of the linking, he will be able to understand her thinking and make her see that the Federation is no threat to the Dominion. But Kira doesn't buy it and reminds him how many times she had lied and tried to manipulate him.

    Sisko is told that he is now working in the strategic administration and that he has to stay and Dax will command the Defiant.

    When Damar finishes work that day he is very happy and tells Quark to get him an extra fancy drink because he's going to be promoted. Quark is surprised that he got promoted after the fight, but Damar brags that he has just done a very great service for Dukat that will give them a huge advantage. After working on Damar by sharing a whole bottle with him, he stumbles in to tell Kira and Odo that Damar has found a way to remove the mines. Thinking about it, Rom agrees that it probably will work.They come up with a plan for Odo to do a computer check in the morning that will disable some alarms that allow Rom to sabotage critical components.

    Sisko is up all night waiting for news about the attack. The admiral tells him to go to sleep because they still have important things to plan in the morning.

    Odo is getting manipulated by the leader who keeps nudging him to link so they can communicate more efficiently. The next morning Kira gets Rom into the maintinance shaft, but when she goes into Odo's office he isn't there. Damar interrupts her and she can't call Rom in time that the alarm is still on. Kira storms into Odo's quarters to know what's going on, and she finds Odo spaced out and telling her that the whole war and resistance thing really doesn't matter to him anymore. Kira leaves and the leader has overheard that she was responsible for the sabotage attempt.

    The Defiant makes it back to the starbase without any major damage and Dax seems to really enjoy being the captain, but Sisko really wants back to his post.

    --

    This episode was decent, but I can't say I am a fan. The performances are decent, but everything else is lacking. I guess the main plot of the episode is Odo gettin genspelled by the leader, but he switches almost immediately without putting up any resistance, which makes the whole tension of the situation deflate. The Starfleet stuff doesn't really add to anything. This episode is more a 2/5 than a 4/5.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    The Starfleet side of things was a character piece on Sisko.

    It's all about him, and his problem with not being the person in the middle of the action, making the difference on the ground. For the first time, he's starting to see what would entail getting the real responsibility of being an Admiral in Starfleet.

    Effectively, they are running Sisko through the Movie Kirk dilemma. Where Kirk never realized that he should have stayed captain until after it was too late, Starfleet 's dire need of flag personal of Sisko' s caliber is browbeating the man out of his natural equilibrium.

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