The skill unlock for crafting doesnt make much sense.

[mehs]

5 Ranks: When determining your weekly progress, double the result of your Craft check before multiplying the result by the item’s DC.

10 Ranks: You do not ruin any of your raw materials unless you fail a check by 10 or more.

15 Ranks: When you determine your progress, the result of your check is how much work you complete each day in silver pieces.

20 Ranks: You can craft magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wondrous items that fall under your category of Craft using the normal Craft rules.

Specifically the 15 rank one. By this point, your weekly progress is checkx2xitem dc in silver pieces. the 15 rank one changes it to check x 2 is your daily progress in silver pieces. Unless the item dc is 7 or less, this very much slows you down. Normal dc by that point would be anywhere from 15 to 30 or so, so you would be going at 1/4 the pace you had been once you go from 14 to 15 ranks.

Is this a mistype? Is there something im missing about it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

The intent is that the 5 Rank doubling would still apply to the (now) daily progress. They forgot to include a clause that the 5 Rank benefit still applies, since it species weekly progress.

[torrasque666]

Lets take Full Plate as an example. Its armor with a bonus of +9 so a DC 19. Its 1,500 GP so 15,000 SP. Let's assume you're taking 10 at level 14. So that's 24. Double that is 48, for a weekly progress of 912 SP. 15,000 SP divided by 912 rounds to 17, so it'll take you 17 weeks to craft a suit of Full Plate. Now when we hit level 15, its now 475 SP per day. Pathfinder assumes a 7 day week. So you're crafting 3,325 SP per week. You're now completing that Full Plate in 5 weeks, instead of 17.

DC: 19
Weekly Progress at 14:

1. 10+14=24
2. 24*2=48
3. 48*19=912

Weekly Progress at 15:

1. 10+15=25
2. 25*19=475
3. 475*7=3,325

[noob]

except the bug is that now the formulae is no longer Dc times check time copper but instead check times 7 silver.
So if you did use the fast crafting option and was reliably hitting a dc of 100 you are much slower with the silver formulae that does not takes dc in account.

[upho]

Yeah, unfortunately the PF Craft rules are pretty dysfunctional.

One issue with crafting is, as noob touched upon, that the DC for some stupid reason is a multiplier in the formula, meaning the higher the DC, the greater the amount of work (in Sp) gets done per week or day. If the DC should have any part of the formula, it should of course be exactly the opposite; the higher the DC, the less work gets done. As is, if your craft rolls are likely to succeed, it'll take you less time to create more complex higher DC items than simple low DC ones.

A second issue is that two equally simple items will take a different amount of time solely depending on the value of the material. As if it's somehow far more difficult to, say, work with gold than with iron (in RL it's exactly the opposite).

A third issue is that in most games, more valuable items will take you way too long to complete even should your every craft check be 30+, making craft pretty darn worthless for anything besides meeting prereqs and fluff.

I very strongly recommend you ask your GM to replace this stupidity with the far more reasonable "Making Craft Work" alternative crafting rules (found near the bottom of the page). It shouldn't be hard to adapt the Signature skill benefits to fit with these rules instead.

[zlefin]

5 Ranks: When determining your weekly progress, double the result of your Craft check before multiplying the result by the item’s DC.

10 Ranks: You do not ruin any of your raw materials unless you fail a check by 10 or more.

15 Ranks: When you determine your progress, the result of your check is how much work you complete each day in silver pieces.

20 Ranks: You can craft magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wondrous items that fall under your category of Craft using the normal Craft rules.

Specifically the 15 rank one. By this point, your weekly progress is checkx2xitem dc in silver pieces. the 15 rank one changes it to check x 2 is your daily progress in silver pieces. Unless the item dc is 7 or less, this very much slows you down. Normal dc by that point would be anywhere from 15 to 30 or so, so you would be going at 1/4 the pace you had been once you go from 14 to 15 ranks.

Is this a mistype? Is there something im missing about it?

The way I interpreted it; is that it means you make progress 7 times as fast (cuz you get the same amount of progress daily rather than weekly). I agree it's not very clear, and if they meant that they could've just said so more plainly; but in the context of how the craft rules are written up it makes sense; and I don't see that it would be broken at all, so I assumed that was the correct interpretation.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, unfortunately the PF Craft rules are pretty dysfunctional.

One issue with crafting is, as noob touched upon, that the DC for some stupid reason is a multiplier in the formula, meaning the higher the DC, the greater the amount of work (in Sp) gets done per week or day. If the DC should have any part of the formula, it should of course be exactly the opposite; the higher the DC, the less work gets done. As is, if your craft rolls are likely to succeed, it'll take you less time to create more complex higher DC items than simple low DC ones.

A second issue is that two equally simple items will take a different amount of time solely depending on the value of the material. As if it's somehow far more difficult to, say, work with gold than with iron (in RL it's exactly the opposite).

A third issue is that in most games, more valuable items will take you way too long to complete even should your every craft check be 30+, making craft pretty darn worthless for anything besides meeting prereqs and fluff.

I very strongly recommend you ask your GM to replace this stupidity with the far more reasonable "Making Craft Work" alternative crafting rules (found near the bottom of the page). It shouldn't be hard to adapt the Signature skill benefits to fit with these rules instead.

The idea behind the higher DC paying more is simply that if more people can do the work (lower DC) then it pays less, while if only one master craftsman in the kingdom can do it (very high DC) then it pays lots and lots.

This is fine and reasonably accurate. The great master swordsmith should not make more money making beltknives or nails because he can do it more easily. His best pay comes from things that strain even his amazing abilities.

The value added by a craftsman SHOULD scale by DC. I'd argue that if anything the scale is far too slow.
You could then add a bonus for check exceeding DC on the basis that higher skill lets you work faster, but the base pay for a harder task is higher.

But they then declared that crafting raw materials are a set fraction of final cost. Which is nonsensical, and leads to the making something of gold takes orders of magnitude longer than working iron into the same shape. The craft rules should give you value added, not final cost. Making an item out of gold produces a more expensive item, but that doesn't mean anyone will pay much more than metal value for it or that you've added more value by crafting out of gold.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The alternative crafting rules (also found in Pathfinder Unchained) are also a better take on mundane crafting.

[Segev]

Yeah, unfortunately the PF Craft rules are pretty dysfunctional.

One issue with crafting is, as noob touched upon, that the DC for some stupid reason is a multiplier in the formula, meaning the higher the DC, the greater the amount of work (in Sp) gets done per week or day. If the DC should have any part of the formula, it should of course be exactly the opposite; the higher the DC, the less work gets done. As is, if your craft rolls are likely to succeed, it'll take you less time to create more complex higher DC items than simple low DC ones.

I believe the rules expressly allow you to raise the DC to work faster. The fact that working faster on an easier task only catches you up to how fast you can work on a harder task is more than a bit weird, though.

A second issue is that two equally simple items will take a different amount of time solely depending on the value of the material. As if it's somehow far more difficult to, say, work with gold than with iron (in RL it's exactly the opposite).

A third issue is that in most games, more valuable items will take you way too long to complete even should your every craft check be 30+, making craft pretty darn worthless for anything besides meeting prereqs and fluff.

I very strongly recommend you ask your GM to replace this stupidity with the far more reasonable "Making Craft Work" alternative crafting rules (found near the bottom of the page). It shouldn't be hard to adapt the Signature skill benefits to fit with these rules instead.

This, however, is absolutely true. The crafting system was obviously thrown together. In PF's defense, they took it largely unchanged from 3e. On the other hand, they clearly modified it some, but didn't stop to think about it very hard, so that lessens their excuse by removing ignorance as a possibility.

[upho]

The idea behind the higher DC paying more is simply that if more people can do the work (lower DC) then it pays less, while if only one master craftsman in the kingdom can do it (very high DC) then it pays lots and lots.

This is fine and reasonably accurate. The great master swordsmith should not make more money making beltknives or nails because he can do it more easily. His best pay comes from things that strain even his amazing abilities.

The value added by a craftsman SHOULD scale by DC. I'd argue that if anything the scale is far too slow.
You could then add a bonus for check exceeding DC on the basis that higher skill lets you work faster, but the base pay for a harder task is higher.

I think you misunderstand, nothing I said goes against this. What I'm saying is that a higher DC item should not be made more quickly than a lower DC item, as is the case now. You're talking about the value, I'm taking about the number of working hours needed to complete something.

Here's the example from the alternative rules I linked to above:

"Erlic and Rynook want to see who can craft an item first. Erlic decides to make a high-quality box (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 15).

Rynook wants to make a crowbar (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 10).

The brothers have only a +1 bonus for their checks as they are both untrained when making these particular items. Again, let’s assume they both roll nothing but 20s. Here are the contest’s results:

* Erlic: 21 times 15 equals 315, which is 15.75 times higher than the box’s cost.

* Rynook: 21 times 10 equals 210, which is 10.5 times higher than the crowbar’s cost.

The Winner: Erlic, despite the fact he is making the more complicated item."

[Segev]

I think you misunderstand, nothing I said goes against this. What I'm saying is that a higher DC item should not be made more quickly than a lower DC item, as is the case now. You're talking about the value, I'm taking about the number of working hours needed to complete something.

Here's the example from the alternative rules I linked to above:

"Erlic and Rynook want to see who can craft an item first. Erlic decides to make a high-quality box (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 15).

Rynook wants to make a crowbar (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 10).

The brothers have only a +1 bonus for their checks as they are both untrained when making these particular items. Again, let’s assume they both roll nothing but 20s. Here are the contest’s results:

* Erlic: 21 times 15 equals 315, which is 15.75 times higher than the box’s cost.

* Rynook: 21 times 10 equals 210, which is 10.5 times higher than the crowbar’s cost.

The Winner: Erlic, despite the fact he is making the more complicated item."

You're better off saying they both have +5 and both take 10. If you stick with +1s, the average results would be VERY different from the results if they roll nothing but 20s:

Erlic makes his DC 15 on a 14+, or 35% of the time. Rynook makes his DC on a 9+, or 60% of the time. The average total roll Erlic makes on a success is 18; the average total roll Rynook makes on a success is 15.5.

• Erlic: 18*15*.35 = 94.5
• Rynook: 15.5*10*.6 = 93

Erlic still finishes first, but not nearly by as much. This actually is also a bad way to do the calculation, since we know that one successful roll will finish; the delay is just over any failures.

The chance, on any given check, that Erlic finishes but Rynook does not, is: .35*(1-.6) = 14%.
The chance, on any given check, that Rynook finishes but Erlic does not, is: .6*(1-.35) = 39%.
The chance, on any given check, that both finish, is: .35*.6 = 21%

Since Erlic technically has a higher progress-towards-being-done in one check than Rynook, let's give him the victory in the race when they both finish on the same roll.

14% chance that Erlic finishes and Rynook does not + 21% chance both finish = 35%

Now, let's discount the times when both fail, and consider only what the odds are that a given brother wins on the attempt where at least one of them finishes. Normalizing for 39% + 35% = 74% (incidentally, this means each trial has a 26% chance that neither brother finishes), we have a final 47.3% chance that Erlic wins, and 57.2% chance that Rynook wins.

So, for this contest, in play, the odds are actually in Rynook's favor to win the race.


The system still is pretty wonky, especially as skill levels rise. But it's not quite as bad as the poor assumption of "always rolling 20s" makes it look.

[Starbuck_II]

How about switching them?
5 Ranks: When you determine your progress, the result of your check is how much work you complete each day in silver pieces.

10 Ranks: You do not ruin any of your raw materials unless you fail a check by 10 or more.

15 Ranks: When determining your weekly progress, double the result of your Craft check before multiplying the result by the item’s DC. Also, multiply the result by 7 due to the 5 rank unlock.

20 Ranks: You can craft magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wondrous items that fall under your category of Craft using the normal Craft rules.

That seems to flow better.

[mehs]

except the bug is that now the formulae is no longer Dc times check time copper but instead check times 7 silver.
So if you did use the fast crafting option and was reliably hitting a dc of 100 you are much slower with the silver formulae that does not takes dc in account.

Even prior, it is in silver pieces, not copper.

two formula are:
Check * 2 * dc in silver per week
vs
Check * 2 in silver per day

dc 25, cost 10,000 sp (1,000 gold), avg check 30
30*2*25=1,500 sp per week, 7 week til completion
30*2= 60 sp per day, 167 days/23 ish weeks til completion

There isnt even an advantage when making low dc, low cost things
dc 10, cost 100 sp (10 gold), avg check 30
30*2*10=600 sp per week, completed in 1/6th of a week (bit over a day, assuming a craft check is 8 hr workday per week, then 8 hrs first day, and hr and 20 the second)
30*2=60 sp per day, completed in 2 days

The only items with a low enough dc to the point where it would actually be an improvement are items on the level of a wooden spoon

dc 5, cost 1 sp, avg check 30
30*2*5=300 sp per week, completed in a bit over 11 minutes (56 hrs/300)
30*2=60 per day, completed in 8 minutes (8 hrs/60)

That's it, that is the only situation where it is an advantage and even then the improvement is pathetic, 40% faster.


compared to profession

5 Ranks: When using Profession checks to earn income, you earn gold pieces equal to the result of your check each week.

10 Ranks: When attempting Profession checks, you can roll twice and take the better result. When answering questions about your Profession, you can always take 10.

15 Ranks: You can attempt checks to earn income once per day instead of once per week.

20 Ranks: When attempting Profession checks, you can choose to roll once instead of twice. If you do and the result of the roll is less than 10, replace it with 10. When answering questions about your Profession, you can always take 20.

the first, at 5 ranks, is a x2 profit, and the third, at 15 ranks, is a x7 profit. (i have no idea how to calc the advantage). The fourth at 20 ranks is only a 20.75% increase (changing average from 10.5 (or prob just taking 10) to 12.75) however.

The prior version is faster as long as you are reliably hitting a dc of *eight*.

[legomaster00156]

I very strongly recommend you ask your GM to replace this stupidity with the far more reasonable "Making Craft Work" alternative crafting rules (found near the bottom of the page). It shouldn't be hard to adapt the Signature skill benefits to fit with these rules instead.

Thank you for bringing these to my attention.

[upho]

You're better off saying they both have +5 and both take 10. If you stick with +1s, the average results would be VERY different from the results if they roll nothing but 20s:

Sure, but that's kinda besides the point, actually. Which means I do agree the example is pretty bad. In the case of DC 15 and 20 items, I believe a far more common situation in an actual game would be a Craft bonus of say at least +14.

Thank you for bringing these to my attention.

You're welcome. I hope they'll make more sense to you and the rest of your group.

[DarkSoul]

If you delete "weekly", or replace it with "crafting", it's more clear.