OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I like it.

[Sloanzilla]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

[Riftwolf]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.

[Kish]

Central to this book's plot is that Durkon died honorably fighting a creature who had (and used) the power to imprison his soul in his corpse.

[Squire Doodad]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

I mean you'd get a ticket to Valhalla-land, but you'd be stuck for a while until the entity died. From what we've seen, absorbed souls do get released. Presumably this also applies to other "soul drain" monsters, though I imagine the victim's souls would not last nearly as long in their afterlives than normal petitioners (souls eventually merge with their planes; the effect of the drain may mean the soul is basically partially merged already leaving less to naturally merge with the plane).

[Talion]

... and I was already running for the Geekery thread to suggest tha Sidgi had a returning axe...

I mean, my first thought when I saw that wasn't 'Art Mistake' or 'Returning Axe' but rather "Sidgi's really showing that combat experience, bringing a SPARE WEAPON with her on a dangerous mission." Not that I'd know where she was keeping it, but still.

[Resileaf]

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.

Another kind of creature that eats souls is the Devourer, and it's an undead.

[Jasdoif]

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.

Devourers are close (and undead).

EDIT: ...did we just set a record for time-delayed ninjary?

[ericgrau]

Looks like dwarves use Klingon logic.

[unluckiest13]

I was going to post about my surprise that hitting someone with a hammer in the face wasn’t against Dwarven law, then I read the explanation that they are in a middle chamber, not the inner chamber yet. Then I thought it would probably be funniest if, after the preparation to influence the council through extensive exploitation of the laws, the vampires overlooked something simple that was allowed, and could stop them. Like a hammer in the face. Explicitly cited as permissible under Dwarf Law by ruling of King Hammerface. Also known as Hammerface the Terrible Debater.

I read all the forums but never had a profile. But i created one just so i could say that contextually "Hammerface the Terrible Debater" may be the funniest thing i have ever seen.

[rbetieh]

These guys seem to be pretty content with who they are
Dont be sorry for him. He had a good death (and hopefully life, too).

sch

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control... There are whole works of fiction about this kind of subject (a super creepy one that came to mind is Children of the Corn), but I dont think an external force ever caused those societies do act this way, and it's always portrayed as a horrible thing....

Who knows how much Kandro still had to teach? And yet, because the other result is far worse, these people celebrate his loss? It's tragic, not weird.

[factotum]

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control...

No it isn't. Just killing off their old because they're old would not be an honourable death. The old folk themselves have to willingly go into battle and die with honour, which is not the same thing as being "put down".

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.

I love this post.

[Seward]

Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.

Few points here.

Several Comic panels = one round to bite, one round to swallow based on 3.X rules. Actually it probably went something like this

round 1 - breaks the stone bridge with casual strength (no action, part of movement), grabs bard with bite attack.
Old dwarf hits him hard enough to do damage in that round (anybody with gear and levels enough to hit and damage that worm is a badass, in double digit levels at least. Age penalties don't matter, he has gear and or buffs to compensate)

Round 2 - wanting a tasty treat but getting low on hitpoints and knowing there is no chance in Hel he'll grab any of the OOTS, he goes for the bystander that hit him hard enough to feel it (and who is bantering with him). Grabs and grapples easily with bite attack.

Round 3 - nobody manages to kill the worm or rescue him. Dwarf fails to get out of grapple (probably instead swings and misses due to grapple penalties plus power attacking enough to do damage if he hits). Dwarf gets swallowed (again, the way critters scale, nobody wins a grapple check at CR18 unless they have freedom of movement or similar magical defense).

Note that in those 3 rounds, the Order STILL hasn't killed the damn thing. It's basically tanking. It lack sufficient offense to pose a real threat to the PCs but it is freaking durable. So it decides to grab a treat of opportunity :)

Even more geeky stuff from 2 decades of 3.5 and Pathfinder.

The above can be done in one less round if you assume the old dwarf also drew an attack of opportunity (perhaps attacking with his final iterative unarmed) to get grappled and thus prevent the worm from taking other AOOs. Honestly that's the most likely scenario since all that other rescue activity would have provoked AOO's all over the place. It would also make the grab-swallow more sudden, since normally you get a round to react (if worm goes first, bystanders wait till dwarf fighter draws AOO, they all go, but PCs have all already acted. So it goes first and swallows before anybody can do anything about it, making Haley's reaction similar to that of what players would do in that situation if they were still catching up mentally to the consequences of the dwarf fighter's choices).

All that is needed is for the dwarf to have an attack sequence that allows the top iterative to do damage to the worm and something later that provokes the grab. All the other actions would then follow pretty much like the comic shows it.

And to show I've played entirely too much of this game, I've seen several similar actions taken for quite similar reasons in game (nearly always to draw the AOO that gets somebody vulnerable to safety. Usually with the intention of surviving, but if the guy you are saving is the cleric, or at this tier, somebody who can wish you back to life, most folks are willing to suck up a death to prevent a total party wipe or an unrecoverable death). The most memorable being a rhemoraz where he calculated that the party could save him and calculated wrong. The only action my character could take was a complex thing to get a bit of his hair for a rez (those critters swallow you and incinerate you) and nobody else could really do much of anything except just try to hit the critter. Although ironically he survived exactly one round while swallowed and the party pulled out some crits and killed it just in time. So his saving the other person (who would NOT have survived being swallowed for a second) worked out ok.

This dwarf though wants to die, so that isn't gonna happen here. Although...the Order has been beating it up for a while. It might die next round and the old dude being irate because he was saved WOULD be pretty funny.

[dtilque]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.

That seems to be too obvious a way to get around that restriction, so I expect the blue barrier will prevent any attack from doing damage. Someone may test that out and be petrified without harming their target, though. Also, the petrification is only temporary. It ends when the Council is over.

I still like my idea that all these dwaves are going to form a new Clan on the spot, with Sigdi as Clan head. Then she'll get to vote against the motion.

[schmunzel]

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control... There are whole works of fiction about this kind of subject (a super creepy one that came to mind is Children of the Corn), but I dont think an external force ever caused those societies do act this way, and it's always portrayed as a horrible thing....

Who knows how much Kandro still had to teach? And yet, because the other result is far worse, these people celebrate his loss? It's tragic, not weird.

they are not "put down".

They (try to) make a conscious decision on how to die. (forced to make it by Thors wager.)
And even if it is potrayed as a horrible thing by some - those dwarves here quite obviously did not think of it as horrible.

What people need to wrap their head around is the necessity of death.
I have every respect for a person that decides that (s)he does not want to spend the rest of her days as a nursing case in adult day care.
Even if people around her/him cant let loose and would prefer to meet him/her at the bedside rather than the graveside.
Or are appalled at the thought of seeing somebody they care for die.

Think of it as a reflection at the inevitability of death. You may as well make the best out of it.

sch

[Endarire]

Comic alternative title: "Die like a dwarf!"

[Mightymosy]

I find it amusing how Sigdi's friends are now being celebrated for ideas Eugene was hated for.
Human reframing......gotta hate it, but gotta live with it with most people.

[HorizonWalker]

I find it amusing how Sigdi's friends are now being celebrated for ideas Eugene was hated for.
Human reframing......gotta hate it, but gotta live with it with most people.

The framing really is key. The Dwarven way is "gotta die of something; might as well make it count." The Eugene way, meanwhile, is "I'm perfectly content to let the whole world be destroyed, and have ten million dwarves be consigned to eternal torment in the afterlife, because it's convenient to my own personal goals and grudges."

[Mightymosy]

And there you have it :-)

[The Pilgrim]

I mean, my first thought when I saw that wasn't 'Art Mistake' or 'Returning Axe' but rather "Sidgi's really showing that combat experience, bringing a SPARE WEAPON with her on a dangerous mission." Not that I'd know where she was keeping it, but still.

She was keeping it in the same place Haley keeps her arrows.

Would have been a good punchline next strip to cover for the art mistake.

[hroþila]

And there you have it :-)

It's not just the framing. Kandro didn't pick a pointless fight, he didn't charge the enemy recklessly, he wasn't trying to get himself killed: he simply happened to lose while doing his best for a good cause. It has nothing to do with what Eugene was suggesting.

[Kish]

There's also a key difference between "it's good that that man died" and "the entire species should die."

I mean, even if we pretend that Eugene wanting all the races that aren't bound by the bet to die for his convenience isn't horrific, before we even get to dwarves.

[The MunchKING]

The framing really is key. The Dwarven way is "gotta die of something; might as well make it count." The Eugene way, meanwhile, is "I'm perfectly content to let the whole world be destroyed, and have ten million dwarves be consigned to eternal torment in the afterlife, because it's convenient to my own personal goals and grudges."

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.

[zimmerwald1915]

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.

Good is not selfish, but altruistic, making personal sacrifices to help others.

[Clistenes]

As I said before... this is a win-win situation for the dwarves! It is either victory or Valhalla!

Mmmm... if you get petrified during battle and you get killed while petrified some time later... does it count as "honorably fallen in battle...?"

[Marp]

Aw man, Kandro saying to Durkon "Just glad I got ta see ye first" and his "goodbye smile" to Sigdi when she assured him everybody was safe hit me in the feels. He probably knew he was getting into the last fight of his life and faced it in the proper stoic dwarf way!

[Kish]

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.

"The world should end, as it would be more convenient for me" is kind of selfish in the way that a blue-white star is kind of slightly warm.

[Renegade Paladin]

So it's in the dwarves' interest to be really bad at fighting so that they lose and die.

[Riftwolf]

There seems to be a lot of missed nuance in how Kandro died that people are glossing over. He didn't look to LDW, think 'well I'm gonna die soon anyway, may as well die charging pointlessly in certain death.' He charged in to save the bard kid, then taunted the LDW to stop it attacking Sigdi and Hoskin, who were also in a vulnerable position. He stayed holding it back till they were clear, but let his guard down when it was LDWs turn to attack. Even though he was pretty much a goner when swallowed, you still see some movement in LDWs gullet; he went down kicking and screaming.
If all of the dwarves had rushed LDW, knowing that they were guaranteed a good afterlife for doing so, that'd be the horrifying death cult (HDC?) Eugene was suggesting. That the oldest of them fought to hold back a creature he had no chance against from killing three dwarves younger than him isn't the same as all dwarves welcoming death.