OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

I wonder if he has a prestige class like Dashing Swordsman that uses the CHA modifier while saying an insult?

The Blue Streak Striker PrC! it took me way too long to think that one up

[Messenger]

When the Thundershield family arrived in #1162, I was so happy. It was such an awesome sight to see this entire clan linked by goodwill and sacrifice arrive to back up Durkon and Sigdi.

However, I quickly realize that this was a battle against vampires backed by a goddess of death. There'd be casualties. So while I was happy, I was also apprehensive and sad for those who'd die in the struggle. It'd be like each and every time you see an innocent or a good person in the comic die. Or even not-so-good-but-not-hated characters die. I always found it shocking and terrible.

But then I remembered that dwarves in the OotS-verse want to die in battle and are happy for it to happen.

And now that this update has rolled in and such is demonstrated- while it's still awesome to see Durkon and Sigdi's family fighting side-by-side- not only is the sadness and apprehension gone, but I gotta agree with everyone who posted the following below:

Dwarves ARE weird.

[Syncrogti]

Art mistake maybe? Kandro got bit in the second panel of the second comic on his right arm, but I don't see the damage later on. Not that it matters to me but it has been important in the past.

Fantastic comic, love how the dwarfs talk about Kandro and how stoked they are that he died in battle. Death is a new adventure, celebrate it.

[Rrmcklin]

they are not "put down".

They (try to) make a conscious decision on how to die. (forced to make it by Thors wager.)
And even if it is potrayed as a horrible thing by some - those dwarves here quite obviously did not think of it as horrible.

What people need to wrap their head around is the necessity of death.
I have every respect for a person that decides that (s)he does not want to spend the rest of her days as a nursing case in adult day care.
Even if people around her/him cant let loose and would prefer to meet him/her at the bedside rather than the graveside.
Or are appalled at the thought of seeing somebody they care for die.

Think of it as a reflection at the inevitability of death. You may as well make the best out of it.

sch

You can understand the inevitability/necessity of death, and still find the Dwarven arrangement terrible. And it's not particularly surprising his friends would react that way; they've all been raised/live in a culture that says it's not horrible. Yes, people should be able to ideally choose how they die, but don't try and turn this into something it's not supposed to be.

[jwhouk]

<snip>
...don't try and turn this into something it's not supposed to be.

This is about 90% of the problems on the interwebs, but that's another issue.

I'm wondering if Hoskin is going to try to fight his way out of the worm's gullet, to be honest.

[Peelee]

The Blue Streak Striker PrC!

I read that as "The Blue Streaker PrC." Which, I assume, has very different pre-reqs.

[The MunchKING]

Good is not selfish, but altruistic, making personal sacrifices to help others.

He's a mortal. He's allowed to have flaws that stop him from being a perfect manifestation of Good.

"The world should end, as it would be more convenient for me" is kind of selfish in the way that a blue-white star is kind of slightly warm.

"The Gods want to blow up the world for the good of everyone, you should stop struggling" makes it sound more fatalistic.

And I mean the Gods are right that blowing them up and sending their souls to the afterlives would probably be better for everyone involved than getting devoured by the Snarl. Except the Dwarves obviously, so he tries to fix that. So I could see where agreeing with them about the world's chances and rolling with it would be seen as rational, even the best choice available to them.

I mean WE Know they (collectively) are going to win and save the world because we were promised a happy ending, but everyone without a beyond the 4th wall narrative view might see success as horribly unlikely at best, dangerously, catastrophicly, capable of going wrong at worst.

I read that as "The Blue Streaker PrC." Which, I assume, has very different pre-reqs.

But think of all the movement bonuses!!

Invisibility at Will is a fun power too...

[Rogar Demonblud]

This is about 90% of the problems on the interwebs, but that's another issue.

I'm wondering if Hoskin is going to try to fight his way out of the worm's gullet, to be honest.

Why would Hoskin want to do that? He just walked through the window into the Council atrium space.

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.

[Jasdoif]

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.

They do not; the temporary hit points from energy drain against swallowed creatures is as close as they get.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Okay, so the tongue is going to stay lopped off.

[Toper]

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.

No fast healing per se, but their wounds can randomly migrate up and down their bodies.

[Kish]

"The Gods want to blow up the world for the good of everyone, you should stop struggling" makes it sound more fatalistic.

It also places Eugene's "barely pretending it's on his radar" excuse front and center and entirely omits his "not actually bothering to pretend it's not the main thing on his mind" motivation.

[hamishspence]

What about the black magic cloud when kandro is devoured? Did the worm consume his soul too?

Nightcrawlers drain levels from creatures they swallow. It was negative energy, basically.

The creature actually has to be inside the Nightcrawler's gizzard to suffer energy drain.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/n...m#nightcrawler

However, since they have at-will unholy blight, that could be it.

[danielxcutter]

It also places Eugene's "barely pretending it's on his radar" excuse front and center and entirely omits his "not actually bothering to pretend it's not the main thing on his mind" motivation.

To be honest, I think he's TN; he's just being judged at Celestia because he thinks he's LG. Don't think he's particularly farther away than that though; just because he doesn't really care about the dwarf situation too much doesn't mean he has no problem with it whatsoever. If he really didn't give a crap at all, he'd have said something like "Meh, can't help it", not "Hmm, okay good point.

[CJG]

I’m guessing that it’s this sort of attitude that Hilgya finds so disturbing. Of course it seems normal to the dwarves, they grew up in it. And it’s just a curiosity to the humans/elves, but to Hilgya who grew up in it, and hates it, I guess I can see where she’s coming from.

And yes I apologize for turning this towards Hilgya/Miko

[deuterio12]

They do not; the temporary hit points from energy drain against swallowed creatures is as close as they get.

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

[zimmerwald1915]

{Scrubbed}

[zimmerwald1915]

He's a mortal. He's allowed to have flaws that stop him from being a perfect manifestation of Good.

There is a difference between flaws in an otherwise Good structure, or momentary slip-ups, and consistent characterization across all of his appearances so far. At some point you have to ignore what you're being told in favor of what you see with your own eyes.

[Riftwolf]

-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.

Just gonna leave this here...

Summon Undead (Su)
A nightcrawler can summon undead creatures once per night: 9-16 shadows, 3-6 greater shadows, or 2-4 dread wraiths. The undead arrive in 1d10 rounds and serve for 1 hour or until released.

-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting

Why is the tongue now a primary attack? Every other attack we've seen from LDW has been a bite. If he has a secondary tongue attack that can pull a target into bite range, that makes him better than SRD. Also Nightcrawler bite isn't poisonous.

[Resileaf]

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

Maybe the decrepit old dwarf is an experienced adventurer with the levels to hit AC 35.
Maybe the decrepit old dwarf has a magic/silver weapon.
As Riftwolf said, no poison on Nightcrawler bite.
It's currently daytime, therefore the Nightcrawler can't summon anything.
The bridge is pretty damn far from the platform, and it's only by extending his reach that the Nightcrawler can destroy it. And the people on the bridge can make withdraw actions not to pull AoOs.
Rule of funny.

[eilandesq]

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

Without addressing any of the other points (which might be attributable to Rule of Cool), generally in 3.5 rules creatures who are themselves summoned can't use their own summoning powers, for reasons of game balance (infinite summoning chains are not fun for anyone but the summoners).

[happycrow]

Considering how old the other dwarves were making him out to be, he's also likely well past middle-aged and well into Old, which means he's probably fighting with at least a -3 to STR, DEX, and CON, though +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA. I wonder if he has a prestige class like Dashing Swordsman that uses the CHA modifier while saying an insult?

Considering he survived to Old in a culture where honorable death-seeking is taken for granted as the only outcome worth not shuddering about, my guess is that Old Kandro had a little tattoo somewhere saying "badass inside."

[eilandesq]

Not to bring up a thoroughly beaten dead horse, but that Harm spell that the Exarch just zapped Durkon with did a minimum of 55 HP to him even if he saved, and possibly more (5 x casting level to a max of 75 HP on a save, with the only limitation being that it can't reduce the target below 1 HP). Meaning that the damage on a save to Durkon would be more than the maximum average damage to Durkon from a certain CE evil tantrum thrower's Flame Strike on a *failed* save--and Durkon didn't look like someone with 1 HP left before the hammer did its healing thing, in spite of being a full level and likely 6-10 HP weaker than he was when hit with the Flame Strike. Just a reminder that he got a rather raw deal in that earlier incident all around.

[SirSoliloquy]

Just joining the thread to say I'm reminded of The Saga of Biorn. Which I'd post a Youtube link to if I had more than 4 posts on this forum.

[Fyraltari]

Just joining the thread to say I'm reminded of The Saga of Biorn. Which I'd post a Youtube link to if I had more than 4 posts on this forum.

To Valhalla!

[SirSoliloquy]

To Valhalla!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU

Thanks, man!

[Themrys]

Now that Hoskin has saved her life via outstretched arm, I wonder if Sigdi will be more receptive to his proposals?

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

[CJG]

There is a difference between flaws in an otherwise Good structure, or momentary slip-ups, and consistent characterization across all of his appearances so far. At some point you have to ignore what you're being told in favor of what you see with your own eyes.

The Giant makes points about how evil characters can still have functioning families and friendships, all while still being evil. I wonder if the inverse is true for good characters? Can a character be good while having terrible personal relationships as well?

[Squire Doodad]

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

Isn't Hoskin married anyways

[CJG]

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

Also, isn’t Hoskin married now? (Via Durkon Memory Dump?).

Dang. Beaten to it.