Halfling Barbarian / Rogue with mediocre stats (rolled)

[Arkhios]

As our concurrent campaign is drawing to a close, my mind's spinning toward the next campaign we have already decided to run.

We're using 3.5 "Core" (Open SRD content, with a few exceptions) only, so we don't have that many player options available. Even though this time around I had hoped to use Point-Buy, the majority of the group wanted to roll stats, so that's what we did, and I rolled pretty crappy (15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 7).

The other 3 players were rather adamant about what they want to play and I had no particular idea beforehand, so I had to comply with the role that was left: a tank (again). We have agreed to not step on each others' toes, and thus doing same things as any other character is discouraged, though not outright forbidden, if the other player is okay with it. After mulling it over for countless times, I've settled down on re-imagining the first character I made for Pathfinder Society in season 0: Halfling Barbarian.

With the stats I rolled, however, I had to get creative and maybe slightly sub-optimal (as if the race wasn't that already).

The other players are going to play:
Half-elf bard (ranged)
Human Cleric (melee)
Halfling Rogue (two-weapon fighting; melee & ranged with daggers, iirc)

With that knowledge, I decided to go with Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 11, and basically see how long it takes before he'll die or cause the other PCs' deaths due to a failed will save (the original version had Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10). The Armor Class and other saves I'm not that concerned about, since halflings get a racial bonus on saves, and their size gives a bonus to AC as well.

The Campaign Setting is Golarion (before Pathfinder Core Rulebook was released) and we are allowed to use the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (the book) in addition to PHB, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Deities and Demigods.
My character (both the original and the one in this campaign) is using a small sized Earth Breaker, as he has been adopted by the Shoanti Wind Clan (he even has the Totem Spirit feat which, funnily enough, gives him armored land speed of 30 ft. in medium armor!)

The other feat that I have planned so far is, of course, Power Attack, but beyond that, I don't know what to do with this little ankle-biter.
Since I will follow the same footsteps of the original one, I will take 4 to 6 levels in Rogue (for a little extra oomph for melee with our other rogue; who is fine with my plan to multiclass into rogue, despite the general agreement).

Other than that, any suggestions are welcome.

[AnimeTheCat]

Wuf... those stats are pretty sub-optimal for sure. Nice choice on Barbarian/Rogue mix, I really like that blend as well.

Depending on how true to the original you want to be, and how gamey you want your character to be. A wee point to optimize from, play as a water halfling. You get an additional +2 constitution, swim speed equal to your base speed, +8 to swim checks, and the ability to take 10 on swim checks even when distracted. Additionally, you'll get +1 attack against fire subtype creatures, but you'll take a -2 penalty on spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the fire subtype. Like I said, depends on how gamey you want to be because this is pretty obscure. It's on the SRD and from Unearthed Arcana.

With your stats, I would see about flipping your Charisma and your Wisdom. Your will save is a lot more important than social interactions, and it's easier to allocate some skill points from your rogue levels to the social skills you're interested in than it is to improve a -2 penalty to your will save on a class that gets bad base will saves. Also, if your reasoning was due to phsycial appearance, Charisma doesn't necessarily have to tie in to appearance. You could just have difficulty getting your point across in social situations, maybe difficulty articulating your point in a debate or such. you don't necessarily have to be so staggeringly ugly that people always think you're lying, or can't look at you long enough to come to an agreement or whatever.

Since all SRD stuff in on the table, you should have access to the Whirling Frenzy Rage variant. It gives you an extra attack (with all attacks at -2) and gives you a reflex and AC bonus instead of a Will save and Con bonus. I tend to prefer this variant to the standard rage in most situations.

A lot of the normal stuff that I would do with a barbarian revolves around tripping and the knock down feat, which is much harder to pull of with a small character. What's more, since you're resource limited you can't really rely on shock trooper and leap attack to bump that power attack damage higher. You could be a wolf totem barbarian (though I don't know how that fits thematically with your choices) to get improved trip for free, then pick up Knock Down at level 3 (it's in Deities and Demigods). You'll be essentially negating the penalty you have for being small when trying to trip, and enlarging yourself negates the benefits of being small, so like I said, just harder to do.

When you hit +5 BAB, you should probably take Deadly Precision. It's not bad and you don't really have a plethora of feats that will actually benefit you too much in SRD content. Stand Still (from XPH) might be useful for you, but to best use that you'll need to get Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon.

To further distance your rogue choices from the other rogue in the party, and to keep in line with the more "uncivilized" nature of the Barbarian, you could aim for the Wilderness Rogue class variant. You trade Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information for Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival. Plus there's no rogue class features removed and you get some pretty nifty special abilities from the ranger class added to your rogue special abilities list. Just in case others in the party, or the DM, have a problem with you multi-classing to rogue. Plust it covers a "nature guy" blind spot in the party comp.

It may be worth it to multi-class in to Psychic Warrior to pick up some utility powers (or even just get access to Psionic Feats). It is a Wisdom based manifester, so you'll need to switch your Wisdom and Charisma at that point. There are a few cool feats that could make your character seem even more of a squirrel with too much caffeine like Speed of Thought, Up the Walls, and Psionic Charge. You can also qualify via the Wild Talent feat, but that's just a no-fun feat tax.

Hopefully this gives you some food for thought.

[Arkhios]

Not all of SRD is on the table, only the parts from PHB, XPH, and Deities & Demigods. So, water halfling, Whirling Frenzy, and Totem variants for barbarian, as well as Wilderness rogue, are out.

I'm aware that Wis 7 is save-wise really bad for both a barbarian and a rogue, let alone a multiclass between them. However, the choice of going Charisma over Wisdom is not because of appearance, but rather because the character is foolhardy and stubborn to a fault, as well as too curious for his own good. And, also because I've played my share of boorish uncharismatic murderhobos. In short, I think it's sometimes fun to have flaws, even potentially crippling ones. Plus, the original one has survived to 13th level with Wis 8. The will save is only 1 point less now (until I even it out to 8 — if I do)

The next campaign is set mostly in urban areas, so actually I was thinking of leaning more towards athletic approach. I'll let the other rogue focus on locks and traps, unless he has no interest in it, then I might do it.

Using Knock-Down would be nice, but there are a few problems:
Firstly, small size imposes a -4 penalty on Trip, and secondly, I have no way of getting int 13 without gimping the character further, to take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.
Thirdly, my current character is using the feat already, and the other players whose characters prefer ranged combat over melee are hating me for using it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Not all of SRD is on the table, only the parts from PHB, XPH, and Deities & Demigods. So, water halfling, Whirling Frenzy, and Totem variants for barbarian, as well as Wilderness rogue, are out.

well... that's kinda lame. It's free content, but whatever, not my game. I saw the all open SRD content at the beginning and ran with it, not realizing the exceptions referenced were in the taking away part not in the adding to part. Man that's a super bummer.

I'm aware that Wis 7 is save-wise really bad for both a barbarian and a rogue, let alone a multiclass between them. However, the choice of going Charisma over Wisdom is not because of appearance, but rather because the character is foolhardy and stubborn to a fault, as well as too curious for his own good. And, also because I've played my share of boorish uncharismatic murderhobos. In short, I think it's sometimes fun to have flaws, even potentially crippling ones. Plus, the original one has survived to 13th level with Wis 8. The will save is only 1 point less now (until I even it out to 8 — if I do)

I get that, but I was just saying that you don't have to play your character as a boorish uncharismatic murderhobo. FWIW, you could just play him as having a speach impedement. That's not boorish or anything, you just have a hard time getting the words out sometimes. Being foolhardy isn't tied to having a low wisdom, you can have a 30 wisdom and still charge in to combat with reckless abandon. The ability score doesn't dictate how you play. Plus, having a high wisdom easily makes you mechanically more stubborn (harder to beat in a battle of wills). I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you're playing wrong. Playing to the ability scores is fine, but it's not necessary. Play the character how you want to regardless of the ability scores and you'll be just fine too. I think its fun to have flaws as well, there's just no reason to not switch those ability scores except to create a flaw, which I would say is ill advised since there is literally nothing binding about playing your character a certain way and your ability scores.

The next campaign is set mostly in urban areas, so actually I was thinking of leaning more towards athletic approach. I'll let the other rogue focus on locks and traps, unless he has no interest in it, then I might do it.

fair enough. I still think that Wilderness Rogue would be more than a fair ask to the DM, especially since it directly and easily accomplishes your goal and the party's goal of not stepping on each other's toes.

Using Knock-Down would be nice, but there are a few problems:
Firstly, small size imposes a -4 penalty on Trip, and secondly, I have no way of getting int 13 without gimping the character further, to take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.
Thirdly, my current character is using the feat already, and the other players whose characters prefer ranged combat over melee are hating me for using it.

I acknowledged that Tripping was sub optimal for small characters. See:

A lot of the normal stuff that I would do with a barbarian revolves around tripping and the knock down feat, which is much harder to pull of with a small character.

and

You'll be essentially negating the penalty you have for being small when trying to trip

and

like I said, just harder to do.

So there's that first. I understood that there are problems with tripping as a small character, just spitballing ideas to maybe help you think of something else. Further, because an entire source from the SRD is thrown out (for whatever reason, not my game) it's not viable, and that's fine. I think you would be better off mixing Barbarian and Psychic warrior for bonus feats and utility powers, rather than rogue at all. Play it off as being your force of will or something, it doesn't have to be played as if you're a spellcaster or anything. Being able to move at 40ft in medium armor up and down walls and change directions (once) on the charge to me fits the image of "ankle Biter".

[liquidformat]

So first off let me just throw out there that there are some major confusing issues here. For starters why are they trying to make you a tank when they have a melee focused cleric? By level 7 you will literally be obsolete in every way when divine power comes online and even before that with all the buffs the cleric has he will most likely have similar or better attack, damage, and AC due to buffing. Plus since he is focused on melee his spells are going to be focused on self buff leaving you and the other rogue hurting. Also as you pointed out you will be stepping on the rogue's feet as well.

If your group is really adamant on needing you too be a tank, the best choice is hands down a druid. You can either focus on summoning, melee, or honestly bfc/ buffing your animal companion. Also riding dog animal companion will outperform a barbarian... Either way you would be better off as a wizard or druid and filling one of the many roles your group is actually missing.

Also in core only barbarian is a rather bad option made even worse by trying to go small since your best option is literally tripping which you are making yourself worse at by being small. Either way horizon walker is probably a good choice for you. If more sources were opened up halfling rogue/barbarian thrower would be pretty cool and could be powerful but as it is I would suggest tabling your Halfling Barbarian / Rogue for a game where this choice would better fit.

[Arkhios]

well... that's kinda lame. It's free content, but whatever, not my game. I saw the all open SRD content at the beginning and ran with it, not realizing the exceptions referenced were in the taking away part not in the adding to part. Man that's a super bummer.


I get that, but I was just saying that you don't have to play your character as a boorish uncharismatic murderhobo. FWIW, you could just play him as having a speach impedement. That's not boorish or anything, you just have a hard time getting the words out sometimes. Being foolhardy isn't tied to having a low wisdom, you can have a 30 wisdom and still charge in to combat with reckless abandon. The ability score doesn't dictate how you play. Plus, having a high wisdom easily makes you mechanically more stubborn (harder to beat in a battle of wills). I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you're playing wrong. Playing to the ability scores is fine, but it's not necessary. Play the character how you want to regardless of the ability scores and you'll be just fine too. I think its fun to have flaws as well, there's just no reason to not switch those ability scores except to create a flaw, which I would say is ill advised since there is literally nothing binding about playing your character a certain way and your ability scores.


fair enough. I still think that Wilderness Rogue would be more than a fair ask to the DM, especially since it directly and easily accomplishes your goal and the party's goal of not stepping on each other's toes.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your opinions. I'm just frustrated by the restrictions. Then again, I also kinda enjoy trying to make the best out of it, though I'm not trying to do that mouth frothing in saliva and teeth clenched. I prefer to maintain a balance between mechanics and flavor, and to keep things fun.

While stats don't dictate the roleplaying, they may act as guidelines for how to play the character. Likewise, a character concept acts as a guideline for how to distribute the stats you've been given.

I acknowledged that Tripping was sub optimal for small characters.

*Snip*

So there's that first. I understood that there are problems with tripping as a small character, just spitballing ideas to maybe help you think of something else. Further, because an entire source from the SRD is thrown out (for whatever reason, not my game) it's not viable, and that's fine. I think you would be better off mixing Barbarian and Psychic warrior for bonus feats and utility powers, rather than rogue at all. Play it off as being your force of will or something, it doesn't have to be played as if you're a spellcaster or anything. Being able to move at 40ft in medium armor up and down walls and change directions (once) on the charge to me fits the image of "ankle Biter".

Sorry, I must've missed that you acknowledged the downside. No offense meant.

I have considered making a pure psychic warrior, but the stats I have aren't really good for it, either.

---

So first off let me just throw out there that there are some major confusing issues here. For starters why are they trying to make you a tank when they have a melee focused cleric? By level 7 you will literally be obsolete in every way when divine power comes online and even before that with all the buffs the cleric has he will most likely have similar or better attack, damage, and AC due to buffing.

Before 7th level, however, there are 6 whole levels when the Cleric isn't that much better as a tank than a meat shield barbarian can be.
Besides, cleric would still rely on spells to shine. Spell slots are a limited resource, and depending on level - especially at lower levels - cleric doesn't have that many to spare all day. Sure, a barbarian can only rage 1/day for the first three levels, and 2/day starting at 4th, but even if barbarian runs out of rage uses, they still have d12 hit die (which is 2 hit points per level more than the cleric has, on average). Also, there's the thing that the cleric has Greatsword proficiency and is planning to use one, so there goes the potential to +2 AC to +7 AC from a Heavy Shield (with Magic Vestment). In that regard, my halfling barbarian would actually quite likely have at least equal AC, if not higher, than the cleric. And more than likely much more hit points.

Plus since he is focused on melee his spells are going to be focused on self buff leaving you and the other rogue hurting. Also as you pointed out you will be stepping on the rogue's feet as well.

You don't know that. And frankly, neither do I. Not everyone playing D&D and/or its 3.5th edition is as experienced and/or interested in "gaming the system" as some other people are or claim to be. And as I also pointed out, I have asked beforehand if it's okay for me to take a "dip" in rogue at some point. It doesn't mean that I'd take that immediately after first barbarian level. Maybe not even until 7th level, when the Cleric supposedly "wins the Game", while others can "chill behind and eat popcorn". Besides, after that, it hardly matters what I do with my character, now does it? Since the cleric becomes a god by then /sarcasm.

If your group is really adamant on needing you too be a tank, the best choice is hands down a druid. You can either focus on summoning, melee, or honestly bfc/ buffing your animal companion. Also riding dog animal companion will outperform a barbarian... Either way you would be better off as a wizard or druid and filling one of the many roles your group is actually missing.

The problem with druid is that the AP is going to be set in urban areas, and it's been specifically mentioned that playing a druid is ill-advised.

Also in core only barbarian is a rather bad option made even worse by trying to go small since your best option is literally tripping which you are making yourself worse at by being small. Either way horizon walker is probably a good choice for you. If more sources were opened up halfling rogue/barbarian thrower would be pretty cool and could be powerful but as it is I would suggest tabling your Halfling Barbarian / Rogue for a game where this choice would better fit.

Since you brought that up, in core only just about any martial class is a rather bad option compared to a cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer, because high level magic is so much more powerful than anything the martials are capable of. It hardly matters which martial you play and you'll still be bad. At that point, you might just as well choose something that seems fun or flavorful, and see how long it survives (probably not that long).

NOTE: taking rogue levels isn't a certainty, but it's a possibility, and I have been given green light to do so.

[Eldariel]

The problem with druid is that the AP is going to be set in urban areas, and it's been specifically mentioned that playing a druid is ill-advised.

Since you brought that up, in core only just about any martial class is a rather bad option compared to a cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer, because high level magic is so much more powerful than anything the martials are capable of. It hardly matters which martial you play and you'll still be bad. At that point, you might just as well choose something that seems fun or flavorful, and see how long it survives (probably not that long).

NOTE: taking rogue levels isn't a certainty, but it's a possibility, and I have been given green light to do so.

Eh, urban areas aren't at all a problem for a Druid, though many writers deluded themselves into thinking so, but you can easily prove them wrong here if you feel like it. If you want to play something that covers the holes in the party, Druid seems like just about the best thing (a secondary divine caster is never amiss and Druid list is actually somewhat arcaneish in style so it helps with lacking a Wizard too, and it provides the meatshield you want as a class feature while also allowing you to be a meatshield down the line if you feel so inclined). Some of your spells are restricted, but you are a Druid, you have special abilities more powerful than most classes so it hardly matters. Just pick a city-friendly animal companion (good ol' Riding Dog is a fine choice - put a Studded Leather Barding on it and call it a day), remember that Entangle will be less reliably available (worst case scenario, carry your own potted plants and toss 'em around pre-Entangle; though you can do just fine even if you never prepare it), read up on various animal forms (i.e. invest in the appropriate Knowledge-skill, Knowledge: Nature) or write them into your backstory as you probably won't have the chance to witness many things to turn into and go from there. I'd make heavy use of summoning (more meatshields!), some control and enough focus on the AC to enable it to tank (a 13 HP 19 AC tank is pretty nice for level 1 though).

Of course, if you want to just run Barbarian/Rogue, go right ahead. I don't really have many recommendations other than taking the Rogue-level first for the 4x8+Int skill points (more important than the 2 extra HP from Barbarian 1); there's only so much you can do with Core stuff. Knock-down would probably be worth picking since you can trigger it with your every attack most likely, but you don't have an easy way to get the Int needed, nor any easy way to bypass the prerequisites. There honestly aren't that many good feats you can pick up, which is always the problem with Core martials; after Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, the only worthwhile feats left are like Spirited Charge (mounted combat is of course quite good but harder in an urban settings) and Improved Trip (ergo 13 Int). Sure, you can pick up your Weapon Focus and whatever but those are rather marginal and only worth it when you have nothing important available instead.

[AnimeTheCat]

I went skimming through Deities and Demigods and I found something that might be fun. Play just a barbarian, but at level 5 prestige in to Berserker! Nothing in the rules for rage or battle frenzy that state the two don't stack, and they're untyped bonuses as well. +10 Strength, +10 Constitution, +4 Will for 3+con mod rounds when using both. Works similarly to the frenzy ability from Frenzied Berserker, but you can still use balance and you don't automatically fail Dex checks. Just tell your friends to keep clear, or keep in in your pocket for really dire times. +5 HP/level is pretty useful.

You could probably get away with fewer levels of Barbarian (probably 3) and pick up 2 levels of Fighter (for feats) or Ranger (for skills) if you wanted. Prerequsites for Berserk are only non-lawful, +5 BAB, and proficiency in medium armor, marital weapons (specifically battleaxe, longsword, warhammer), and shield proficiency. So you are free to take whatever feats you want.

Bonus points if you can figure out how to use the fact that you can beast shape into a whale.

[Arkhios]

I went skimming through Deities and Demigods and I found something that might be fun. Play just a barbarian, but at level 5 prestige in to Berserker! Nothing in the rules for rage or battle frenzy that state the two don't stack, and they're untyped bonuses as well. +10 Strength, +10 Constitution, +4 Will for 3+con mod rounds when using both. Works similarly to the frenzy ability from Frenzied Berserker, but you can still use balance and you don't automatically fail Dex checks. Just tell your friends to keep clear, or keep in in your pocket for really dire times. +5 HP/level is pretty useful.

You could probably get away with fewer levels of Barbarian (probably 3) and pick up 2 levels of Fighter (for feats) or Ranger (for skills) if you wanted. Prerequsites for Berserk are only non-lawful, +5 BAB, and proficiency in medium armor, marital weapons (specifically battleaxe, longsword, warhammer), and shield proficiency. So you are free to take whatever feats you want.

Bonus points if you can figure out how to use the fact that you can beast shape into a whale.

Ahh... I always forget there are prestige classes in Deities and Demigods. Those are off the limits, as well. But that actually has a good reason. They are setting specific, and we're playing in a different one. But, yeah... I might not agree with all the reasons my DM had for those restrictions, but I can't be arsed to complain about it. It won't accomplish anything.

People have been able to play with just the PHB, so we should be able too. Everything else is just a bonus.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ahh... I always forget there are prestige classes in Deities and Demigods. Those are off the limits, as well. But that actually has a good reason. They are setting specific, and we're playing in a different one. But, yeah... I might not agree with all the reasons my DM had for those restrictions, but I can't be arsed to complain about it. It won't accomplish anything.

People have been able to play with just the PHB, so we should be able too. Everything else is just a bonus.

Theres nothing wrong with core+ only, it's just far more restrictive for non-magical characters. Really, for the barbarian/rogue, I would echo about rogue first, then barbarian, sprinkle psychic warrior for access to powers and psionic feats like speed of thought which will give you a 40 ft movement halfling with some good skills, good in-combat damage, and keep you useful in and out of combat.

[Arkhios]

Hmm, what about a straight human fighter, stats as follows
(Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10)

A bog-standard sword and board, weapon focus etc.
Maybe with Bastard Sword Proficiency for style, using a tower shield, despite its penalty to hit.

As a bonus, my DM has a perfect figurine for it.

[liquidformat]

Hmm, what about a straight human fighter, stats as follows
(Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10)

A bog-standard sword and board, weapon focus etc.
Maybe with Bastard Sword Proficiency for style, using a tower shield, despite its penalty to hit.

As a bonus, my DM has a perfect figurine for it.

First, fighter is a horrible class, even more so without dungeon crasher and Zhentarim Soldier. If you want to do a level or two dip great but it is in no way worth sitting in for more than two levels, there are just not enough nor good enough feats to make it worth while.
Second, sword and board is probably the worst combat style you could choose.
Third, sword and board with a tower shield is even worse.

[Arkhios]

First, fighter is a horrible class, even more so without dungeon crasher and Zhentarim Soldier. If you want to do a level or two dip great but it is in no way worth sitting in for more than two levels, there are just not enough nor good enough feats to make it worth while.
Second, sword and board is probably the worst combat style you could choose.
Third, sword and board with a tower shield is even worse.

Right. Barbarian is bad, Rogue is bad, I guess even ranger and paladin would be bad. Not to mention monk, and even the bard is merely passable. Probably sorcerer is hardly worth it either.

To summarize, if it's not a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard, don't bother. Is that it?

Seriously, that attitude isn't helping anyone, at all.
Why is it that people can't have ideas without others trying to diss them because of a public opinion, and then try to force them into playing something they don't want to, and then ridiculing them because of their preferences.

[liquidformat]

Right. To summarize, if it's not a Cleric or Druid, don't bother. Is that it?

Seriously, that attitude isn't helping anyone, at all.

My advice was actually druid seems to fit your needs best, if you are going barbarian don't go halfling since your best route is tripping and halfling makes you worse at tripping, and finally only dip fighter and don't go sword and shield since it is bad (tower shield and weapon even worse).

The fact is there are plenty of decent choices in core only even if you aren't going to be a cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard; however, you seem to keep going for options that actively make you worse at what your goal is like tanking your wisdom score.

For example going with human rogue3/barbarian2/fighter2/blackguard10 could be a pretty powerful, you could even dip shadowdancer for a level to pull hide in plain sight (though that is very feat intensive once you try for the shadowdancer dip).

Alternatively, maybe trying halfling paladin and focusing on mounted combat on your riding dog would work well too as a tank.

halfling rogue 3/ranger 2/assassin10 or rogue 3/fighter 2/assassin 10 is a great way to handle the two-weapon fighting rogue your companion is playing.

There is also horizon tripper which is listed above.

[Arkhios]

I'm already playing a Knock-Down barbarian/fighter tripper in our current soon-to-be-finished campaign. I really don't want to play a character that does essentially the same thing, over and over again. I want to do something different this time. I don't really care if it's suboptimal. I only wish the build can work, even if only just barely. I'm not daydreaming of being the ultimate combat/social god that outshines the other players.