Battlebots Season 4

[tomandtish]

The Round of 16!

The seeding was as follows:
Bite Force
Witch Doctor
Hydra
Tombstone
Whiplash
DeathRoll
SawBlaze
Black Dragon
Lock-Jaw
Son of Whyachi
Yeti
HUGE
Quantum
Minotaur
Blacksmith
Uppercut

I'm OK with all of those except Blacksmith and possibly Minotaur. The entire round of 16 played out in this episode.

Spoiler: Bite Force vs. Uppercut

Show

Ahead of time Bite Force sounded like they were going to be cautious. That didn't last long. Uppercut has some stability issues, and Bite Force hammers into them quickly and effectively. Uppercut is knocked out quickly and Bite Force takes no obvious damage, although Paul claims he saw sparking during the fight. The commentators are skeptical, as Bite Force now has 13 consecutive wins.

Spoiler: Black Dragon vs. Lock-Jaw

Show

This is an epic fight. Lock-Jaw dominates the first half of the fight, pushing Black Dragon around and knocking some pieces off. But then it begins smoking and Black Dragon begins knocking Lock-Jaw around the ring. Despite smoking, Lock-Jaw manages to hang in and even regain some momentum. It goes to the judges for a split decision for... Lock-Jaw. I can agree with that. Donald is an excellent driver, but I suspect reliability issues will knock him out at some point.

Spoiler: Tombstone vs. Quantum

Show

No real surprise here. Tombstone tears into Quantum quickly, and the ablative armor doesn't do much. Tombstone by a knockout.

Spoiler: Whiplash vs. HUGE

Show

This is another fight that's hard to call ahead of time. Huge manages to inflict the most damage, but aggression and control go to Whiplash, who pushes Huge all around the ring, including onto the screws a few times. It goes to the judges and we have another split decision... in favor of Whiplash. Mattie is an excellent driver and I'll be curious to see how far he goes.

Spoiler: Witch Doctor vs. Blacksmith

Show

This fight is all Witch Doctor. They push and knock Blacksmith around, knock holes in it, and by the end of the fight Blacksmith has more fire than just the hammer. Blacksmith is knocked out, and this one was never in doubt. Witch Doctor is also still undefeated this season.

Spoiler: SawBlaze vs. Son of Whyachi

Show

This is another fight where I have no idea before it starts who is going to win. Sawblaze has such an excellent driver, and can push bots around easily. But SOW delivers such excellent hits. I really have no clue... but that doesn't last long. Sawblaze pulls off the box rush, and keeps SOW from spinning up. And continues to do so for the entire match. While SOW gets a few minor hits, I don;t think the spinner ever gets up to more than half speed. Sawblaze is also using their hammer saw, and breaks the tie rods holding SOW together. SOMEHOW SOW makes it to the end, although it looks more like a pile of sticks, and even gets a late hit that is probably the most powerful hit they had. Judges unanimously give it to Sawblaze, who has the potential to go far.

Spoiler: Death Roll vs. Yeti

Show

A case of who survives the big hits. Unfortunately Yeti still seems to have control issues, and spends a lot of the match on their side. When they do have a big hit, Yeti seems to get the worst of it. It goes close to the distance, but Yeti is counted out and Death Roll moves on (and is still undefeated).

Spoiler: Hydra vs. Minotaur

Show

Hydra is undefeated so far, and is the new dominant flipper. Minotaur had a slow start, and honestly barely made the top 16. They are definitely vulnerable to flippers as well. This should be interesting.... Except it is over too quickly. Minotaur gets a solid couple of hits, and breaks a drive chain on Hydra. Hydra can't move, and is counted out.

Spoiler: Thoughts on the upcoming fights....

Show

Bite Force v. Lock-Jaw: This should be Bite Force all the way. It's a more reliable bot, hits harder, and the driving is arguably equal. Combined with Lock-Jaw's reliability issues, this goes to Bite Force.

Tombstone v. Whiplash: I'll give a nod to Tombstone, if only because Tombstone should always get the benefit of the doubt. IF Whiplash can pull off the box rush and keep Tombstone jammed up, they might very well win on control and agression. But Tombstone is pretty maneuverable and it's been hard to pull off (Whiplash has failed at it in the past). My money is on Tombstone.

Witch Doctor v. Sawblaze: I honestly have no idea how to call this one. Witch Doctor should be able to do more damage, but Sawblaze will almost certainly win on control. I THINK I'm going to go with Sawblaze, but that's a coin flip.

Minotaur v. Death Roll: Like Death Roll's last match, this is who survives the big hits, and who wins the battle for low ground. I'm rooting for Death Roll primarily because Minotaur snuck in because of the Desperado. They got 2 wins there against weak opponents and that gave them the 50% win/loss record to make the bracket in the first place.

[pendell]

Thanks for the writeup!

Spoiler: Bite Force vs. Uppercut

Show

Ahead of time Bite Force sounded like they were going to be cautious. That didn't last long. Uppercut has some stability issues, and Bite Force hammers into them quickly and effectively. Uppercut is knocked out quickly and Bite Force takes no obvious damage, although Paul claims he saw sparking during the fight. The commentators are skeptical, as Bite Force now has 13 consecutive wins.

Spoiler

Show

I saw smoking as well, I can understand Paul's concern. It's all about longevity, and any damage introduced in these early fights may prove cumulative and lethal in succeeding rounds.

Spoiler: Tombstone vs. Quantum

Show

No real surprise here. Tombstone tears into Quantum quickly, and the ablative armor doesn't do much. Tombstone by a knockout.

Spoiler

Show

That reminded me of one of those old samurai movies -- two warriors come together, they stand for a minute, and then one suddenly bursts into blood and falls over. Terrific work by Tombstone.

Spoiler: Whiplash vs. HUGE

Show

This is another fight that's hard to call ahead of time. Huge manages to inflict the most damage, but aggression and control go to Whiplash, who pushes Huge all around the ring, including onto the screws a few times. It goes to the judges and we have another split decision... in favor of Whiplash. Mattie is an excellent driver and I'll be curious to see how far he goes.

Spoiler

Show

I thought it was over for Whiplash when the wheel went flying. I guess damage ISN'T everything in Battlebots.

Spoiler: Witch Doctor vs. Blacksmith

Show

This fight is all Witch Doctor. They push and knock Blacksmith around, knock holes in it, and by the end of the fight Blacksmith has more fire than just the hammer. Blacksmith is knocked out, and this one was never in doubt. Witch Doctor is also still undefeated this season.

Spoiler

Show

Don't wanna jinx 'em, but I'd be surprised if WD wasn't in the semifinals at least this year.

Spoiler: Hydra vs. Minotaur

Show

Hydra is undefeated so far, and is the new dominant flipper. Minotaur had a slow start, and honestly barely made the top 16. They are definitely vulnerable to flippers as well. This should be interesting.... Except it is over too quickly. Minotaur gets a solid couple of hits, and breaks a drive chain on Hydra. Hydra can't move, and is counted out.

Spoiler

Show

I wasn't really happy to see Minotaur since they weren't terribly impressive in the regular season. But I unsay it all after this fight; the old Minotaur is BACK and impressive!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[StevenPalme]

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

[Traab]

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

"An infant in your lap may dampen your spirits."

[pendell]

Quarterfinals

Minotaur vs. Death Roll

Spoiler

Show

Minotaur starts out strong , but their primary weapon shuts down. It still looks like anyone's fight,
but then Minotaur stops moving. The wheels are spinning, but they aren't moving? They get counted out, not really
sure what happened there.

After discussion implies Minotaur got caught on something and no longer had the motor power to get off.

Winner: Death Roll by KO.

Tombstone vs. Whiplash

Spoiler

Show

Whiplash has been designed specifically to fight Tombstone and wanted this matchup specifically.
Let's see how he does.

Not well. His armor comes off in the first past. Afteward he can't defeat Tombstone's blade,
which proceeds to scientifically take off Whiplash's tires.

Winner: Tombstone by KO.

Witch Doctor vs. Sawblaze

Spoiler

Show

Sawblazes' forks protect it from WD's spinner, and they can definitely overpower witch doctor,
but those hits from witch doctor's spinner are just too powerful. First Sawblaze's saw shuts down,
then it gets knocked on its head and smoke pours out. Incapacitated.
WInner: Witch Doctor by KO.

Bite Force vs. Lockjaw

Spoiler

Show

Things look bad for Bite Force when half its primary weapon goes flying , but the remaining half is more than
enough. He repeatedly hits, and soon Lockjaw is repeatedly flipped, on fire, and reduced to crab-walking, at
which point it is counted out.
Winner: Bite Force by KO.

Semifinals

Spoiler

Show

Witch Doctor vs. Death Roll

What . A. Fight.
Witch Doctor really hits hard, and for the first time in the season Death Roll's weapon is disabled.
WD knocks it all over the box but Death Roll is amazingly tough.
Then, Witch Doctor stops moving.
For seven heart-stopping seconds it looks like she will be counted out, but just in time she regains movement.
THen the two of them both move carefully around the battle box until time runs out. It goes to the judge's decision!

Winner: Witch Doctor, by 2-1 decision.


Bite Force vs. Tombstone
Oh, THIS oughta be good.

Both bots have been specifically customized against each other; Bite force has its biggest armor,
Tombstone is on its last spare frame and its shortest blade, which will still hit with maximum power.

THe match starts.

I don't believe it.

Bite Force hits Tombstone's weapon carefully ...

... and half of Tomstone's primary goes flying, along with one of its two wheels! Tombstone shakes all over the place without stability, and Bite Force pushes it into the screws! Tombstone shakes and quakes, and when the dust settles, is missing half the primary and can't move. Bite Force impressively wipes the floor with Tombstone in less than 60 seconds!

Wow, Witch Doctor is going to REALLY have her work cut out for her this time.
Winner: Bite Force by KO.

FINALS

Spoiler

Show

Bite Force vs. Witch Doctor

This is going to be tough for Witch Doctor. She looked a little fragile in that last battle against
Death Roll, and she had to replace most of her bot just before the fight. So she's handicapped. Still, I'm rooting for her.

She gets some good hits and starts taking off three of Bite Force's Four forks. But it isn't enough. It's like fighting a video game boss who has tons of hp and only needs to get one good hit to one-shot a PC. This is what happens. He manages to get a hit and damages the self-righting mechanism, then witch doctor is turtled and unable to move.

So close ... such a strong team. But at the end of the day Bite Force repeats again.

Winner: Bite Force by KO.

CHAMPION: Bite Force

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tomandtish]

Spoiler: Minotaur v Death Roll

Show

Yeah, there was a small piece of torn-up flooring that they came down on top of. And since they were upside down the drum spinner was getting in the way in front. So no traction to the wheels.

I was glad to see this result. Death Roll has been impressive (esp. given how they performed in 2016), and since Minotaur only made the top 16 because of their two wins in the Desperado, I'm Ok with them losing.

Spoiler: Tombstone v. Whiplash

Show

Yeah, I got a big chuckle out of this fight (which went how my wife and I predicted it). They'd just finished saying how the front armor was designed to stand up to Tombstone and.... there it goes.

Spoiler: Witch Doctor v. Sawblaze

Show

As I said above, I had no idea how this was going to go. I had figured it might go to Sawblaze for control, but as stated Witch Doctor's spinner was just too brutal.

Spoiler: Bite Force v. LockJaw

Show

Actually, what came off of Bite Force was one of the front forks (1 of 4) they put on to get low ground. The primary (the spinner) was just fine. And had to love the commentary: "For the fourth straight fight Lockjaw is smoking or on fire".

Spoiler: Semifinal 1

Show

I was rooting for Witch Doctor in this one, just because their luck has been so bad in the previous seasons. And for 7 seconds it looked like history was going to repeat itself. My wife is a huge Witch Doctor fan and was screaming at them to get moving again. Some of those hits were amazing!

Spoiler: Semifinal 2

Show

I said to my wife before it started. It's either going to be Tombstone in under a minute or Bite Force in over two minutes..... And man, was I wrong. One hit and pieces of Tombstone are all over the place.

I love Bite Force at the end sweeping up the piece of Tombstone's blade (as a momento perhaps?).

Spoiler: Final

Show

Much like you I'm rooting for Witch Doctor (but an placing my money on Bite Force). And unfortunately there weren't many surprises here. For maybe the first 20 seconds you think Witch Doctor has a chance, since it's knocking off those forks. And then Bite Force gets that first big hit and it is all downhill from there. Still, Witch Doctor had a hell of a season.

And with all that another season comes to an end. There are definitely some up and comers who are worth keeping an eye on!

Sorry for the spoilers. Corrected.

[pendell]

TomandTish, you have excellent analysis as always. I would suggest, however, that the winners of the quarter and semi final matches are spoilers, which is why I put that discussion in spoiler block and did not mention the participants outside those block.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Considering how flippers didn't really do all that well this season I wonder if that means that they'll be less frequent in the future?

I also wonder what happened to Deep Six considering that it was absolutely devastating although kind of unpredictable?

[pendell]

Considering how flippers didn't really do all that well this season I wonder if that means that they'll be less frequent in the future?

Or the people who have them may try to improve and try again. After all, Blacksmith has had a lot of trouble as a hammer bot but it keeps coming back again and again.

I also wonder what happened to Deep Six considering that it was absolutely devastating although kind of unpredictable?

I was wondering the same thing. I looked them up online -- they had three matches in the regular season and a 2-1 win-loss record. But the normal regular season is four matches , not three.

I suspect the 'bot was trashed so badly after the last bout (which was an untelevised three-way rumble) that they couldn't continue. That, or it broke free of its chains and went on a rampage in the countryside.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Or the people who have them may try to improve and try again. After all, Blacksmith has had a lot of trouble as a hammer bot but it keeps coming back again and again.

Blacksmith is sort of a...better as one or the other to me. I liked Beta and while it wasn't great I thought its track record was at least decent. Blacksmith's fire, though, doesn't really do much as it's designed now and the hammer keeps getting sawed off.

I suspect the 'bot was trashed so badly after the last bout (which was an untelevised three-way rumble) that they couldn't continue. That, or it broke free of its chains and went on a rampage in the countryside.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

We can be pretty sure that didn't happen because the swath of destruction would be visible from space.

[Traab]

Blacksmith is sort of a...better as one or the other to me. I liked Beta and while it wasn't great I thought its track record was at least decent. Blacksmith's fire, though, doesn't really do much as it's designed now and the hammer keeps getting sawed off.



We can be pretty sure that didn't happen because the swath of destruction would be visible from space.

His fire is there for extra judge points because its a flashy looking attack, just like most fire attacks. Its super super rare that I ever see a fire bot actually accomplish anything with fire. There was that one grab bot that did a great job of pinning his opponent in the air and bathing them in flame till the ref made them let go, total control? I cant remember. Then it at least looked like the extended heat exposure was doing something useful. But normally it just looks awesome and accomplishes nothing.

[Arcane_Secrets]

His fire is there for extra judge points because its a flashy looking attack, just like most fire attacks. Its super super rare that I ever see a fire bot actually accomplish anything with fire. There was that one grab bot that did a great job of pinning his opponent in the air and bathing them in flame till the ref made them let go, total control? I cant remember. Then it at least looked like the extended heat exposure was doing something useful. But normally it just looks awesome and accomplishes nothing.

That was Complete Control iirc. Warhead when it was using flamethrowers instead of the disk spinner also won a match against that ridiculous Obwalden Overlord because OO was slow, had a plastic shield, and a lot of exposed plastic wires that unsurprisingly melted with the equivalent of a withering glance.

[Traab]

That was Complete Control iirc. Warhead when it was using flamethrowers instead of the disk spinner also won a match against that ridiculous Obwalden Overlord because OO was slow, had a plastic shield, and a lot of exposed plastic wires that unsurprisingly melted with the equivalent of a withering glance.

Yeah, so unless you are fighting mecha tentamushi the other 99% of bot opponents will mostly ignore your flamethrower. If you could get a welding flame weapon, like something meant to actually damage metal as opposed to gradually warming it up, then it might be a useful weapon but im fairly sure every technique for creating such a flame is banned by the rules. Mainly due to big boom potential. So its just visual spectacle for 99.9% of the time it shows up and about as useful as the arena hazards for actually disabling a bot. (Not counting tossing someone over the screws)

[tomandtish]

Considering how flippers didn't really do all that well this season I wonder if that means that they'll be less frequent in the future?

I also wonder what happened to Deep Six considering that it was absolutely devastating although kind of unpredictable?

I don't know about that. Hydra had a perfect regular season, but was taken out by a lucky hit in the right spot to take out their drive train. I suspect that will be part of the rework.

Flipper bots are mostly about making sure you have the power to really send your opponent flying, while being durable enough to survive until you can do so. Bronco had three seasons where it made the sweet 16, but just had a crappy year. And hydra shpwed it could more than step up.

Of course, they are the only two flipper bots who were ever remotely effective. So I think the thing is: when you have a good one it is really effective. but it's hard to make a good one.

[Traab]

I wonder if this could work out, a combo grabber with retractable arms, and a saw blade with enough of an edge to actually cut whatever it touches. Thats honestly a big problem with saw blades is they tend to push away the target meaning it does minimal real damage, but get a clamp bot that can hold it in place, and drag it directly into the blade with enough pressure to allow it to cut and it might do some real damage. We have already seen grab bots that work really well as in complete control. Able to grab and lift the bot into the air, but do you think that would work? Grab the bot with extended claws/clamps/whatever, drag it in close then carve it up while it cant get pushed away?

[pendell]

I wonder if this could work out, a combo grabber with retractable arms, and a saw blade with enough of an edge to actually cut whatever it touches. Thats honestly a big problem with saw blades is they tend to push away the target meaning it does minimal real damage, but get a clamp bot that can hold it in place, and drag it directly into the blade with enough pressure to allow it to cut and it might do some real damage. We have already seen grab bots that work really well as in complete control. Able to grab and lift the bot into the air, but do you think that would work? Grab the bot with extended claws/clamps/whatever, drag it in close then carve it up while it cant get pushed away?

Well, it's worth a try. The battle box is the ultimate arbiter of success or failure.

My own thought, however, is that I wouldn't take this approach. The reason is that there's a mass limit, and this bot seems too complex; The mass split between the grabbing arms and the saw blade means that the blade isn't going to be as heavy on a dedicated spinner, and the gripping arms wouldn't be able to lift as much. And, again, as I said that's a complex system, and complexity means more things to break. That's why Tombstone is a semifinalist or better every year; it's simple, it's rugged, it does only one thing but it does that one thing very well indeed. Bite Force is a bit more complex and is a bit less heavily armed but it is very, very rugged.

So if I were building a bot I'd make it EITHER a flipper OR a spinner, but I wouldn't try for both; I think the result wouldn't be as good as either at the chosen role , so it would lose weapon-to-weapon contests with spinners and not have the strength to flip that, say, Hydra has.

Although what ANY flipper can do against Huge, I'm not sure.

I read the rules , so my own preferred solution is illegal; I would like to build a thing I'd call 'Snakebite', which would use pneumatics to punch sharp spikes through a bot's armor, then inject acid or liquid nitrogen into the bot's innards. By the rules squirters are illegal but flame is NOT, so maybe injecting flame directly into the bot's insides would be effective. Put the injectors in the biggest wedge I can find in the rules' the wedge wins weapon-on-weapon against even something like tombstone, then punch into the enemy bot's internals and rip it apart from the inside out.

Flame might not be a good idea, but I'm trying to think of something more damaging that I could do to a bot once I have a probe inside the armor and into the bot proper.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tomandtish]

Well, it's worth a try. The battle box is the ultimate arbiter of success or failure.

My own thought, however, is that I wouldn't take this approach. The reason is that there's a mass limit, and this bot seems too complex; The mass split between the grabbing arms and the saw blade means that the blade isn't going to be as heavy on a dedicated spinner, and the gripping arms wouldn't be able to lift as much. And, again, as I said that's a complex system, and complexity means more things to break. That's why Tombstone is a semifinalist or better every year; it's simple, it's rugged, it does only one thing but it does that one thing very well indeed. Bite Force is a bit more complex and is a bit less heavily armed but it is very, very rugged.

So if I were building a bot I'd make it EITHER a flipper OR a spinner, but I wouldn't try for both; I think the result wouldn't be as good as either at the chosen role , so it would lose weapon-to-weapon contests with spinners and not have the strength to flip that, say, Hydra has.

Although what ANY flipper can do against Huge, I'm not sure.

I read the rules , so my own preferred solution is illegal; I would like to build a thing I'd call 'Snakebite', which would use pneumatics to punch sharp spikes through a bot's armor, then inject acid or liquid nitrogen into the bot's innards. By the rules squirters are illegal but flame is NOT, so maybe injecting flame directly into the bot's insides would be effective. Put the injectors in the biggest wedge I can find in the rules' the wedge wins weapon-on-weapon against even something like tombstone, then punch into the enemy bot's internals and rip it apart from the inside out.

Flame might not be a good idea, but I'm trying to think of something more damaging that I could do to a bot once I have a probe inside the armor and into the bot proper.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I wonder if you could use some modified version of a stun gun. Punch the hole then deliver a shock. unfortunately, the rules on voltage are...

Maximum Voltage
The maximum allowed voltage anywhere in the bot is 220 volts. However, if your bot uses
voltages higher than 48 volts nominal, you will have to convince us that you know what you
are doing, and we reserve the right to reject your bot’s design for failure to meet our safety
requirements.

So I don't think that would do sufficient damage.

I COULD see a rules lawyer trying to argue that there's a difference between squirting and injecting. I remember in season 1 with the net, where it turns out they were left out of a list of banned materials by mistake.

[Ninja_Prawn]

So I don't think that would do sufficient damage.

It's not the voltage that does the damage when you shock something, it's the current (yes, I know they're proportional, shush). And you don't need much current at all to do damage. Witness how often bots set their own motor controllers on fire - they're doing that with the current they're generating for themselves, presumably using 24 or 48V of tension, so I doubt your electrical weapon would need to add much energy in there to cause problems. But... aren't stun guns specifically banned by the rules? I know they've banned ECM/radio jamming weapons, and this is definitely in the same ballpark.

[tomandtish]

Don't know. Those are banned because they interfere with the connection between bot and controller without actually damaging (or technically even touching) the bot. I'd think you could make an argument for one as long as it didn't inherently mess with that connection.

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds like it'd be more like flamethrowers than ECM devices as far as the weapon-equivalent. Disabling the other bot via indirect damage to its internals rather than gross physical trauma.