General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

[John Cribati]

"A valid statement of opinion" is not the same thing as "a correct opinion."

[ellenate]

No. I disagree with this statement too. I think majority anime that uses CGI does it good, because you don't notice it.

Cgi sticks out like a sore thumb.

[John Cribati]

Well, yes it does. Because it's an entirely different art style. If you directly trace a character from any anime or manga into one drawn by a different mangaka, I bet they'd also stick out like a sore thumb. That doesn't necessarily mean that either art style is bad, just... Different.

[LaZodiac]

Cgi sticks out like a sore thumb.

One Punch Man uses a TON of CGI. I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring it up though.

[ellenate]

Well, yes it does. Because it's an entirely different art style. If you directly trace a character from any anime or manga into one drawn by a different mangaka, I bet they'd also stick out like a sore thumb. That doesn't necessarily mean that either art style is bad, just... Different.

yes, so it's odd to say "you wouldn't notice it".

[-D-]

yes, so it's odd to say "you wouldn't notice it".

Well either you watch anime and are used to it and/or don't notice it, or you probably don't watch anime.

If it's the latter why are you in this thread?

[Prime32]

As we transition between seasons, I'll review the one show I watched and haven't yet discussed: A Certain Scientific Accelerator.

I think people were hopeful for this series because its source material was way too slow, but the Index III anime rushed through its source material way too fast, so adapting it in the same way might actually improve it.

In a word? Meh.

This didn't feel like "The Accelerator Show". He's just kind of along for the ride. He isn't challenged by the villains. He doesn't grow as a person. He just sort of tags along and periodically wrecks bad guys. Outside of a flimsy (and quickly dropped) connection to Last Order, the plot doesn't even involve him.

Now, I get that it's hard to write plots that will challenge Accelerator. I really do. He's the strongest for a reason. But surely there ARE ways to do this! Railgun manages to challenge Misaka plenty by putting her in unfavorable fights against multiple opponents, or by making it so the villains don't fight her directly. The plots are always closely connected to her or her friends.

For Accelerator, we just get a bog standard "meddling with dark forces you don't understand" plot that feels like it's straight out of a Naruto filler damsel- of- the-week boilerplate. Shouldn't all these science minded people be really interested in the fact that magical necromancy is a thing? Instead, they just sort of gloss over the whole magic aspect and it's treated like any other experiment. And none of it relates to Accelerator!

Final verdict: The first half of the season is worth watching just to see Accelerator stomp up and down on people's faces. After that it just gets dull.

They had a teaser of another arc at the end, but I'm not sure if I'll bother. The whole show felt like it was just going through the motions, and the only saving grace is that Nobuhiko Okamoto brought his A game to the voice acting.

I haven't watched the anime, only read a little of the manga, but I get the impression that it's a story really boxed-in by being a spinoff. Accelerator is handled better in Index itself, but his arc is... weird to say the least, making it hard to slot things into the timeline. Mikoto shows up often in Index, but usually as a side character, so her spinoff has a lot more wiggle room.

The mercenary group from Accelerator did show up in the most recent arc of Railgun though.

Recently another Level 5 got a spinoff prequel in the form of A Certain Scientific Dark Matter, which seems even harder to make work.

[Rodin]

I think people were hopeful for this series because its source material was way too slow, but the Index III anime rushed through its source material way too fast, so adapting it in the same way might actually improve it.


I haven't watched the anime, only read a little of the manga, but I get the impression that it's a story really boxed-in by being a spinoff. Accelerator is handled better in Index itself, but his arc is... weird to say the least, making it hard to slot things into the timeline. Mikoto shows up often in Index, but usually as a side character, so her spinoff has a lot more wiggle room.

The mercenary group from Accelerator did show up in the most recent arc of Railgun though.

Recently another Level 5 got a spinoff prequel in the form of A Certain Scientific Dark Matter, which seems even harder to make work.

I haven't gotten around to watching Index III yet...I guess I should get on that. I started watching the first Index again because I was making my way through Railgun a second time in preparation for THAT show's third season, and...I dunno. It's amazing to me just how much more I like Railgun considering it's a spinoff.

I find it a little bit weird that they're so limited with the main show, given that there's multiple events in both Railgun and Accelerator that should have been a big freaking deal in Index.

Not sure how I feel about naked teddy bear chick invading Railgun. I noticed on my re-watch that the show moved heavily away from the fanservice of Index and its own early episodes, even censoring scenes that originally appeared in Index. Hopefully, the third season will keep up that trend.

[Prime32]

I haven't gotten around to watching Index III yet...I guess I should get on that. I started watching the first Index again because I was making my way through Railgun a second time in preparation for THAT show's third season, and...I dunno. It's amazing to me just how much more I like Railgun considering it's a spinoff.

Far from a rare opinion. Index has less emphasis on characterisation than Railgun and more on worldbuilding, and the anime strips a lot of that down. The Index III anime strips it down so much that it sometimes forgets to explain what's going on, or even gives explanations that contradict what's happening on-screen. Currently 19 of the books are translated - the first anime covered 1-6, the second 7-13, and the third 14-22 (the series currently has 45 books in total). Annoyingly, Yen Press skips the unnumbered sidestory volumes (including a "13.5th" book that was adapted into the last two episodes of Index II) but there are some older fan translations floating around.

Not sure how I feel about naked teddy bear chick invading Railgun. I noticed on my re-watch that the show moved heavily away from the fanservice of Index and its own early episodes, even censoring scenes that originally appeared in Index. Hopefully, the third season will keep up that trend.

Eh, the Railgun anime adds some fanservice scenes that weren't in the manga, most of them involving Kuroko.

[ellenate]

Well either you watch anime and are used to it and/or don't notice it, or you probably don't watch anime.

If it's the latter why are you in this thread?

*shrug*


We are often the most critical, on the things we adore.

[Rodin]

Eh, the Railgun anime adds some fanservice scenes that weren't in the manga, most of them involving Kuroko.

Hardly surprising, and I'm willing to bet most of it was in the first season. There's a flipping ton of fanservice in the first half, culminating in a swimsuit episode.

The difference is that Railgun feels like it grew up. There's a lot less fanservice in the back end of season 1, and by season 2 it's all but gone. When Misaka kicks the vending machine, we don't see her shorts, and Touma later identifies the Misaka Sister by her goggles instead of by her panties like in Index. Meanwhile, Index 2 still had Touma walking in on naked ladies and having women forced into stripperific costumes to seal their power for which the only cure is Touma's hand destroying the costume.

Going forward, I'm looking forward to new Railgun episodes a lot more than I am Index. I really only feel obligated to keep up with Index just in case there's plot overlap that you don't see in Railgun - like how in the Sisters Arc, Touma loses his memory off-screen and you pretty much have to know that it happened in the parent series.

[endoperez]

Cgi sticks out like a sore thumb.

You claim that CGI sticks out like a sore thumb. That isn't the full story, though.

Can you tell when you're watching CGI, and when not?

For example, when someone's playing an instrument in Carole and Tuesday, is that CGI or not? When there's a robot, a machine or a self-driving suitcase, is that CGI or not? What about the background? If there is CGI, do you have to look for it first, or can you tell without looking - if you can't, it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Spoiler

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Same thing goes for Yuru Camp. Are the tents CGI or not? When are they, and when not? What about the camping chairs? Camp cooking equipment? Bicycles, mopeds?

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What about a show like Kimetsu no Yaiba? There's CGI being used in the action-packed camera fly-throughs, obviusly, but what else? What about the water dragon from the opening - hand-drawn, or CGI imitating the look? Weapons? Carts? I'm not honestly even sure if this is from the anime or not, much less what was used to create this specific image.

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Or, let's take one of the classic "bad CGI" shows. Golden Kamuy. Yes, there's a bear. But, what else is CGI here? Are the guns draw, or CGI? What about the characters themselves, or their equipment? Vehicles? All scenes, or just some of them?

Spoiler

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Every time you notice that a show is using CGI, well, that's when you know a show is using it. How can you be sure you noticed EVERY time they used it? How do you know you noticed every show that did it?

It's more likely that you only notice bad CGI, and are unable to tell it's there when it's done well.

[LaZodiac]

Also the horrifying CGI Bear is meant to evoke how the art is entirely anime... except for the bears, which are drawn hyper-realistic because they're That Big A Deal and the uncomfortable feeling you get looking at the CG is meant to evoke the fear an actual bear would put in you.

[endoperez]

Also the horrifying CGI Bear is meant to evoke how the art is entirely anime... except for the bears, which are drawn hyper-realistic because they're That Big A Deal and the uncomfortable feeling you get looking at the CG is meant to evoke the fear an actual bear would put in you.

If that was the intention, it didn't work. I haven't watched the show, but just looking at that one scene, it doesn't look exaggeratedly scary, just out of place.

It does remind me of a show that did you that trick very well - Madoka Magica had all sorts of curses done using different art style, from paper cut-outs to photo-collage to emulating specific paintings. That worked really well. Doing that with 3D could work, too, but it'd have to be quite exaggerated. What's that weird show about an old man getting cyborg powers? Inuyashiki, I think? That's a show where the CGI stuff feeling otherwordly could work perfectly. I haven't seen it myself, though. so I can't say how well that worked out.

Spoiler: screenshot

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[ellenate]

Can you tell when you're watching CGI, and when not?

You ask me if i can point out cgi... and then proceed to point out cgi.


Pretty self-defeating argument there buddy.


Are you just showing me it can be done well? (I kind of already acknowledged that fact in my first post on the subject.)


You can have nice looking cgi... it still sticks out.

[LaZodiac]

If that was the intention, it didn't work. I haven't watched the show, but just looking at that one scene, it doesn't look exaggeratedly scary, just out of place.

It does remind me of a show that did you that trick very well - Madoka Magica had all sorts of curses done using different art style, from paper cut-outs to photo-collage to emulating specific paintings. That worked really well. Doing that with 3D could work, too, but it'd have to be quite exaggerated. What's that weird show about an old man getting cyborg powers? Inuyashiki, I think? That's a show where the CGI stuff feeling otherwordly could work perfectly. I haven't seen it myself, though. so I can't say how well that worked out.

Spoiler: screenshot

Show

For what it's worth I don't think it 100% works either, was just bringing up that at least in that series it had a point and intent to being obvious.

[Rynjin]

@endoperez: You know, people can make statements without needing to turn every forum post into a formal mathematical proof, right?

Just because generalities are occasionally wrong does not mean the generality itself is wrong as the intent of the person who stated it.

People generally know what you mean when you say, for example, "peppers are hot" even though, yes, there are some exceptions {Scrubbed}

[ellenate]

@endoperez: You know, people can make statements without needing to turn every forum post into a formal mathematical proof, right?

Just because generalities are occasionally wrong does not mean the generality itself is wrong as the intent of the person who stated it.

People generally know what you mean when you say, for example, "peppers are hot" even though, yes, there are some exceptions. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

There should be a casual thread and a serious thread.

[-D-]

You ask me if i can point out cgi... and then proceed to point out cgi.

You can have nice looking cgi... it still sticks out.

No. That is not what he did. He asked you to specifically point cgi in each scene. The scenes in questions were composite. Some elements were hand drawn, others were cgi, and some were aftereffects.

I too have trouble believing you can tell what is CGI and what isn't. I don't doubt you can recognize bad CGI, but I doubt you can distinguish good.

[Rynjin]

No. That is not what he did. He asked you to specifically point cgi in each scene. The scenes in questions were composite. Some elements were hand drawn, others were cgi, and some were aftereffects.

I too have trouble believing you can tell what is CGI and what isn't. I don't doubt you can recognize bad CGI, but I doubt you can distinguish good.

I'm wondering why that's particularly hard to believe.

Carole and Tuesday: Entire backdrop is CG. Both instruments are CG.

Yuru Camp first image: Windows are CG, distant mountains are CG, plants are CG (or traced, it is admittedly hard to tell the difference on that). Everything else appears to be hand drawn, though some elements are iffy (would likely be clearer in motion)

---Second image: Bike is CG, backdrop is CG. Foreground is mostly hand drawn, camp stove is dubious (same "cg or traced" dilemma as before).

Kimetsu no Yaiba: almost everything in KnY is CG as long as it's in motion, even walking casually. Notably hands usually are not (as it appears in that specific scene) since CGI hands have a habit of looking wonky in motion even for the best studios.

Golden Kamuy: Images too small to notice details, except the snow in the bottom right and left middle is suuuper CG.

Do you have an answer key for this or was it a waste of everyone's time and we can move on?

[endoperez]

I didn't mean to come across as rude, I just work with 3D (but not animations). I respect the work that goes into cg animation, even though I can often notice it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but saying all cgi is bad is disrespectful. It'd be like calling all people who draw in anime or manga styles talentless amateurs, I guess?

I hope it didn't feel like I was attacking anyone, or hostile, I might written my points too formally and argumentatively.

I wouldn't mind at all if you'd said you dislike or hate cgi. I am often very critical of anime, myself, and matters of taste are subjective.


re: answer key

I tried looking for a making of video or a scene breakdown explaining this stuff, but didn't find one. If I found one, I'd have just posted it, instead.
What you listed was pretty much what I noticed, too, but that question was mostly rhetorical, and the other half of it was whether it's bad or distracting that those parts are CG.

[ellenate]

I just work with 3D (but not animations). I respect the work that goes into cg animation

Why do you respect its use in anime? It's just a cheap alternative to 2d animation for them.

[Rynjin]

Why do you respect its use in anime? It's just a cheap alternative to 2d animation for them.

That, however, is not just a generalization but a falsity; there are a lot of studios and creators that think that 3D animation is a perfectly valid and even in some ways superior form of animation. Ufotable is one, a studio that uses almost exclusively 3D animation. This attitude is (and thanks to SuperEyepatchWolf for this interesting story) BROKE the guy who made Gantz, both literally and figuratively; he poured absolutely everything into pioneering 3D animation after his first major success, and it bankrupted him.

There are plenty of other examples, and typically studios in general don't use it just because it's cheap unless they're no-name studios looking to cash in quickly on some licensed property.

Admittedly it is often used as a time saver or a budget gap filler, but even then that's just the realities of the business, and many studios do the best they can with what they have, using CG to save budget by animating less important scenes (like driving scenes) with it, and trying to make it look as good as possible.

CG is really good with vehicles in particular, better than 2D a lot of the time at conveying motion. Say what you will about Initial D, but the series would not be the same without 3D animation. Not to mention that 3D animation allows for unconventional camera angles literally NOT POSSIBLE to do in 2D.

[ellenate]

That, however, is not just a generalization but a falsity; there are a lot of studios and creators that think that 3D animation is a perfectly valid and even in some ways superior form of animation. Ufotable is one, a studio that uses almost exclusively 3D animation. This attitude is (and thanks to SuperEyepatchWolf for this interesting story) BROKE the guy who made Gantz, both literally and figuratively; he poured absolutely everything into pioneering 3D animation after his first major success, and it bankrupted him.

There are plenty of other examples, and typically studios in general don't use it just because it's cheap unless they're no-name studios looking to cash in quickly on some licensed property.

Admittedly it is often used as a time saver or a budget gap filler, but even then that's just the realities of the business, and many studios do the best they can with what they have, using CG to save budget by animating less important scenes (like driving scenes) with it, and trying to make it look as good as possible.

CG is really good with vehicles in particular, better than 2D a lot of the time at conveying motion. Say what you will about Initial D, but the series would not be the same without 3D animation. Not to mention that 3D animation allows for unconventional camera angles literally NOT POSSIBLE to do in 2D.

It's largely seen as a cheap alternative... happy?

[Prime32]

The difference is that Railgun feels like it grew up. There's a lot less fanservice in the back end of season 1, and by season 2 it's all but gone. When Misaka kicks the vending machine, we don't see her shorts, and Touma later identifies the Misaka Sister by her goggles instead of by her panties like in Index. Meanwhile, Index 2 still had Touma walking in on naked ladies and having women forced into stripperific costumes to seal their power for which the only cure is Touma's hand destroying the costume.

On checking the dates, by the time the Railgun manga reached that point, Index was already on book 19 or so. By that point the series had added two more protagonists, both of whom live in Academy City's Dark Side, and whose viewpoint stories are generally more serious in tone. The tone shift in Railgun S was related to Mikoto coming into contact with the Dark Side, and IIRC it even had an anime-original scene where a character warns her that the Dark Side will scar her.

I'm told that in later books Touma's stories also become more serious and his characterisation gets more complex.

Going forward, I'm looking forward to new Railgun episodes a lot more than I am Index. I really only feel obligated to keep up with Index just in case there's plot overlap that you don't see in Railgun - like how in the Sisters Arc, Touma loses his memory off-screen and you pretty much have to know that it happened in the parent series.

Off the top of my head:

• One of Kuroko's coolest moments is in Index (the teleporter duel), and it directly sets up one of her coolest moments in Railgun.
• Sometimes popular minor characters from Index are introduced to Railgun because the main plot either killed them off or drastically changed their role in the story, so the best way to give them more exposure was to jump to an earlier point in the timeline.
• The Railgun side of the Sisters arc has a ton of irony and contraposition dependent on having seen the original series, and at the same time its anime adaptation has higher production values than the original arc's anime adaptation did. So if you watch the Railgun anime first, then Index's, you're going to be disappointed. Not to mention, Mikoto sharing her spotlight with Touma during the arc will be annoying if you have no idea who Touma is.
• Some of the later events in Railgun's Athletic Festival arc (which looks like it's being adapted into the Railgun T anime) directly reference the last few books of Index's first half, and the fallout is still impacting the Railgun manga even now.
• Railgun's Level Upper arc hints at some of the darkest secrets of Academy City... but I think this one might actually work better as foreshadowing for the Index plots than it does when you already know them.
• Near the end of Index's first half, Mikoto learns of the existence of magic and joins the main plot.

[uncool]

It's largely seen as a cheap alternative... happy?

I wouldn't be, because how it's "largely seen" isn't even close to the point you seemed to be making.

[ellenate]

I wouldn't be, because how it's "largely seen" isn't even close to the point you seemed to be making.

and what exactly is the point i'm making

[uncool]

and what exactly is the point i'm making

The collected series of points you seemed to be making were: 1) that CGI in anime sticks out, 2) that because it sticks out, it (usually) detracts from the scene that it is in, and 3) that it therefore is bad.

None of which is addressed directly by how it is "largely seen".

[ellenate]

The collected series of points you seemed to be making were: 1) that CGI in anime sticks out, 2) that because it sticks out, it (usually) detracts from the scene that it is in, and 3) that it therefore is bad.

None of which is addressed directly by how it is "largely seen".

Eww, sorry. We were looking for "d, none of the above"

[Rodin]

Eww, sorry. We were looking for "d, none of the above"

Care to share with the rest of the class what your point actually IS, then?

Because you've been arguing for over a page in favor of points A, B, and C.

If that ain't your point, what the hell is?

For the record, other than the Carole and Tuesday picture, I don't think I could have pointed out any CGI in the linked pictures with certainty. I suspect most people notice it about as much as I do, i.e. not at all unless it's REALLY noticeable, like Deidara's dragon in Naruto.

On checking the dates, by the time the Railgun manga reached that point, Index was already on book 19 or so. By that point the series had added two more protagonists, both of whom live in Academy City's Dark Side, and whose viewpoint stories are generally more serious in tone. The tone shift in Railgun S was related to Mikoto coming into contact with the Dark Side, and IIRC it even had an anime-original scene where a character warns her that the Dark Side will scar her.

I'm told that in later books Touma's stories also become more serious and his characterisation gets more complex.

Well that's hopeful. I don't read manga so I admit I'm well behind on the written story. I was judging based on the anime, where Railgun S was released a year before Index II. Index II felt like a step back in a lot of ways, and I guess that's because it was written first and the anime just adapted it faithfully.

Off the top of my head:

• One of Kuroko's coolest moments is in Index (the teleporter duel), and it directly sets up one of her coolest moments in Railgun.

That was definitely a highlight, I'll admit. That plotline also has one of Accelerator's coolest moments. Seeing the other teleporter (whose name I forget) absolute FREAK OUT at the sight of Accelerator after she was already running scared was just incredible.

• The Railgun side of the Sisters arc has a ton of irony and contraposition dependent on having seen the original series, and at the same time its anime adaptation has higher production values than the original arc's anime adaptation did. So if you watch the Railgun anime first, then Index's, you're going to be disappointed. Not to mention, Mikoto sharing her spotlight with Touma during the arc will be annoying if you have no idea who Touma is.

Oh, I saw Index first when it was originally released in the U.S.

The Sisters arc is really weird. When I first saw it in Index, it was freaking amazing. Touma has a lot of really great lines, the fight is punchy (literally), and the resolution has one of the coolest moments in the entire franchise with the Sisters powering the wind turbines.

When I first watched Railgun S, it took me a while to realize they were going to re-tell the entire thing. They did so much more slowly, and because I knew the story so well it dragged on for ages. Touma loses some of my favorite lines, and the actual fight takes a lot longer. I greatly preferred the original telling.

When I re-watched it last week (from both series), I hadn't seen the episodes in years. I watched Railgun first, and coming in cold that version is just better. Touma is the outsider and so he doesn't see a lot of what goes on. Accelerator's motivations are expounded upon to better fit his later characterization...although they still kept his sexually harassing line to the Mikoto Sister we see him kill, which is an odd choice given that it's the only time I think I've heard him do that. It's early character weirdness, so I'm not sure why they didn't take the opportunity to change it like they did with other scenes lifted from Index.

In the end, both sides have their advantages. Index shows the fight better, Railgun does a better job with story leading up to it. Ironic given that most of the budget probably went into the fight in Railgun.