The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[danielxcutter]

Wouldn't Psychic Warrior also work? The Wisdom bonus helps, and Psychic Warriors have powers for either to-hit or damage, depending on which you need.

[liquidformat]

Wouldn't Psychic Warrior also work? The Wisdom bonus helps, and Psychic Warriors have powers for either to-hit or damage, depending on which you need.

Ya these do well as psychic warrior and ardents.

[Unavenger]

Wouldn't Psychic Warrior also work? The Wisdom bonus helps, and Psychic Warriors have powers for either to-hit or damage, depending on which you need.

Also, Psionic Lion's Charge is quite useful. (EDIT: Missed that they have natural pounce. Yeah, they're even better than I thought).

Definite +1 here.

[JMS]

Wouldn't Psychic Warrior also work? The Wisdom bonus helps, and Psychic Warriors have powers for either to-hit or damage, depending on which you need.

I don't think you need damage, just to hit.

[JMS]

Wouldn't Psychic Warrior also work? The Wisdom bonus helps, and Psychic Warriors have powers for either to-hit or damage, depending on which you need.

I don't think you need much more damage, just to hit. You have 4 arms and pounce, something most Uberchargers would love, or seek out at first posibility.

[javcs]

Pick up Leap Attack if you're going the charge/pounce route. Might even be able to talk a DM into waiving the Jump ranks prereq on account of your racial bonus. Even if you can't, still worth it - even a standing start is basically automatic for short distances (ie, minimum distance for Leap Attack).

[Dimers]

I'm sitting out the kreen vote. I can't discount the large number of posters who've said +1 (including from actual practice!), but I also can't take the time and attention right now to build a comparison and see for myself why.

[Inevitability]

Udoroot

Last week we had a low-HD, conveniently humanoid, relatively unproblematic monster with an universally agreed-upon LA? Time for a sessile plant that messes with the action economy.

Udoroots are Huge-sized subterranean bulbs, whose six crowns can sense other creatures with blindsight and manifest psychic powers. The crowns don't share the root's HP pool, and instead are sunderable objects with 7 HP and hardness 5.

Like all plants, they're immune to electricity and resistant to fire and ice. They also have some natural armor and small bonuses to constitution, wisdom, and charisma (in addition to a -6 intelligence penalty).

The first problem: as mentioned above udoroots can't move. I guess one could be transported by an ox cart, or put on a few mid-level floating disks, or given movement through some obscure template, but even then its mobility is going to be very limited compared to other characters.

Udoroots have a number of psionic powers, of which the most notable ones are probably at-will False Sensory Input, at-will Mind Thrust, at-will Telekinetic Force, and 3/day Astral Construct. As long as at least two of the six crowns remain, the udoroot can use two PLAs a round.

While the concept of a giant psychic plant is cool, and two PLAs a turn are some serious firepower, the udoroot is simply too reliant on its frail crowns to actually do anything. A few sunder attempts, or an area attack or two, and the party is down a team member.

There's also the issues of poor object manipulation, terrible mobility, and difficulty using magic items. Considering all of those, the udoroot deserves -0 LA. I could slap on an asterisk for the inability to move, but that's not game-breaking as much as just really annoying.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA-0 for the wannabe Lotus-Eater Machine. Not much to work with, considering its limitations, and its primary draw being dependent on slowly regrowing crowns that are liable to get destroyed incidentally by AoE spells; let alone as primary targets. It leaves this thing in the dumpster tagged as unsuitable for even the most adventurous PCs.

[danielxcutter]

Well if you have other PLAs or at least up the ML of the powers you could get something out of this, but not for long I guess.

[Efrate]

-0. Too many issues, not enough oomph.

[StevenC21]

-0. Good power, but oh so very fragile. Practically unplayable until you have unrestricted access to a fast time Demiplane.

[javcs]

Concur, LA -0.

They're an interesting gimmick encounter as a monster ... kind of. But the crowns are just way too vulnerable, and get replaced way too slowly.

[liquidformat]

very cool concept but to many issues to make them work. The fact in and of itself that they are blind past 60' and can't move means they should be very easy to kill for anything that recognizes them -0 LA

[Aniikinis]

-0 for the wannabe mandrake. Way too many problems, too reliant on an easily disabled mechanism, and just not worth the hassle.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Like all plants, they're immune to electricity and resistant to ice and fire.

They're resistant to songs of ice and fire, but how would they fare against games of thrones?

I could slap on an asterisk for the inability to move, but that's not game-breaking as much as just really annoying.

If being really annoying was enough for an asterisk, kender would have at least three.


I don't have anything interesting to say relevant to the udon root or whatever it's called. It's a monster designed as a unique boss fight without regard to how it might function outside a boss arena.

[ZamielVanWeber]

So many "ifs" about this. If the PLAs scaled. If it had an int bonus like its other mental stats. If it were smaller. Tempting to give an asterisk just for needing to move around a huge subterranean bulb because that is somehow more tricky than moving a dryer's tree. But a regular -0 seems fair.

[Zaq]

I think this might be the least PC-friendly option since the vasuthant.

-0.

[Celestia]

Like all plants, they're immune to electricity and resistant to fire and ice.

As a Pokémon fan, this statement hurts me.

[Zaq]

As a Pokémon fan, this statement hurts me.

Worse still, they're immune to poison. Poison just can't catch a break.

[javcs]

I don't have anything interesting to say relevant to the udon root or whatever it's called. It's a monster designed as a unique boss fight without regard to how it might function outside a boss arena.

Except it's appallingly crappy as a boss fight.
The not-flowers are just too fragile. Hardness 5, 7 hp.
It's only a problem if you botch the Knowledge(Nature) check to know what it is. And that you have to use the Sunder action on it, if your casters aren't willing (or able) to kill it with fire magic.
Then again, it is a plant. "Kill it with fire" should probably be considered a reasonably safe assumption, even without the knowledge check.
Although without the knowledge check, the party might not dig up the underground portion to finish off. On the other hand, there won't be any new crowns for a month, and it's unlikely that the party will still be in the area ... or low enough level to be bothered by it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm. Two levels of Totemist for at-will move action teleport. Maybe one level of Barbarian for Rage, and from there take Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker (and Extra Rage) to be immune to fire and cold while raging (probably not this; they're already resistant)? And then... two levels of Half-Dragon Savage Progression for immunity to Acid? And I guess from there go Ur-Priest or a martial initiator. -0

This would make a pretty cool host for Symbiotic Creature. As a huge plant, you don't even need any shenanigans to bolt a typical humanoid character onto one, and the backstory practically writes itself (humanoid/animal/[guest creature] lures prey into the Udoroot to feed on/loot the corpses once it kills them in a traditional symbiotic relationship that evolves into Symbiotic Creature template over time).

Actually, one thing that would be cool. Double Manifest is subject to psionic/magic transparency, right? So you could cast two spell-like abilities through it per turn? Warlock just became this monster's go-to class. That's the equivalent of an [Epic] feat, and one that's typically considered one of the best for Warlocks. And a Warlock Udoroot could use Flee the Scene to move around when not blasting. Now you just need a way to fix its horrible squishiness (a better way than the one I came up with up above); with that I could see this monster rising to +0 or maybe even higher. Maybe one level of the Ghost Savage Progression for incorporeality?

[Zancloufer]

LA -0 for sure. It's flowers take too long to replace and too many hoops to jump through in order to, jump.

On the flowers durability: It's actually not that easy to OHKO them with an errant fireball. Even at max CL fireball only does 10d6 damage (average 30) which actually isn't enough to kill them. Remember that they are immune to Electrical damage and take half damage from Fire/Cold attacks and have effectively DR 17 after having the damage. Yes Sonic/Acid will wreck them but the flowers can take quite a beating from fire attacks.

[Inevitability]

LA -0 for sure. It's flowers take too long to replace and too many hoops to jump through in order to, jump.

On the flowers durability: It's actually not that easy to OHKO them with an errant fireball. Even at max CL fireball only does 10d6 damage (average 30) which actually isn't enough to kill them. Remember that they are immune to Electrical damage and take half damage from Fire/Cold attacks and have effectively DR 17 after having the damage. Yes Sonic/Acid will wreck them but the flowers can take quite a beating from fire attacks.

Ah yes, mixed up hardness and DR there. Will fix that.

[timeeater14]

Quick thing I noticed: on the LA archive, the heading that says "Expanded Psionics Handbook" has an apostrophe on "Psionics". My copy of the EPH doesn't have that, so I was wondering if it was a mistake or intentional.

[Prime32]

Udoroots could benefit from the Miser's Fortune feat (Complete Scoundrel) to protect their crowns. Or get a casting of:

• Augment Objects (Stronghold Builder's Handbook) to double the hardness and hp of the crowns.
• Hardening (Spell Compendium) to grant them up to +10 hardness.
• Minor Servitor (Savage Species) to animate the crowns as creatures.
• Sequester to prevent the crowns from being detected.
• Book Ward if you use PF material

Also some potential DM rulings which could improve its viability:

• It has six crowns because it has 6 HD. A lv20 udoroot would have twenty crowns.
• The crowns' 7 hp is actually 1 Plant HD + the udoroot's Con modifier.
• Double Manifest extends to powers and spells it gains from other sources.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Also some potential DM rulings which could improve its viability:

• It has six crowns because it has 6 HD. A lv20 udoroot would have twenty crowns.
• The crowns' 7 hp is actually 1 Plant HD + the udoroot's Con modifier.
• Double Manifest extends to powers and spells it gains from other sources.

The first two do make a lot of sense. The third one would probably be a good addition, but thanks to psionics/magic transparency I think the Udoroot could already, as written, Double Manifest Warlock invocations (which are spell-like abilities).

[Blue Jay]

I agree with LA +1 for the thri-kreen, though I think it's on the upper side of that.

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I think LA -0 is right for the udoroot.

I was looking up ways to give an udoroot a movement mode, and I came across a question. Does "Speed 0 ft" mean the udoroot doesn't have a land speed? Or does it actually count as having a base land speed of 0 ft? Because, presumably speed bonuses generally only apply to movement modes the creature already has, right? Like the Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic, which says, "As base creature, +10 ft to all modes of movement." Surely, if the base creature doesn't already have burrow, climb, fly and swim speeds, the Dark template doesn't grant them 10 ft in all of them, right? So, would it give the udoroot a base land speed of 10 ft? Or does it have no effect? I kind of think RAW favors the second, but I would probably rule the first if I DMed for an udoroot PC.

Also, if the udoroot ever wants to deliver touch attacks or something, it has a reach of 0 ft. Does that extend to its crowns, too? Or would each crown have reach as if it were a Medium creature?

[danielxcutter]

It's cool, but a main feature that can be foiled by a non-magical weed whacker probably isn't THAT good. LA -0 for the reasons mentioned earlier.

[TiaC]

On the flowers durability: It's actually not that easy to OHKO them with an errant fireball. Even at max CL fireball only does 10d6 damage (average 30) which actually isn't enough to kill them. Remember that they are immune to Electrical damage and take half damage from Fire/Cold attacks and have effectively DR 17 after having the damage. Yes Sonic/Acid will wreck them but the flowers can take quite a beating from fire attacks.

As attended objects, aren't they immune to AoEs?