The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[liquidformat]

This seems to assume that 'augmentations that increase the DC and/or damage' and 'augmentations that do other stuff' are fundamentally different things in psionics though. Or am I wrong here?

Edit: okay, I've taken an actual look at the link. I think there is an argument to be made for powers not being augmentable, but its not the one you seem to be making. The full relevant bit from the SRD is:



The argument I could see is that any power not indicates by an asterisk is automatically manifest ed at their normal minimum level, and therefore do not gain any augmentations. However, if a PLA can be augmented, then there is no fundamental difference between augmentations that increase damage or that do anything else, such as increase duration or number of targets, right?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not expert on psionics, but I see no indication in the text you quoted that powers without an asterisk could only be augmented in some ways, but not in others.

The comments about damage and save DC (also duration and range) is presented above in the same link:

All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

Is it time for another round of this?



And from my point of view you just want to ignore RAW because it makes PLAs more appealing..



It was likely not commented on last time, because i dont see the point of this point.
We have explicit text telling us that "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC."

So yes? Of course those powers without argumentation options, or who are manifested at their base level wont include a helpfull notation to remind the DM that this ability hits for more than the at times low base damage of said power.
Your basing the entirety of your case on Wizards for a change try to be helpful and make things easy for the DM.

This was the whole basis of the argument last time and I am pretty sure it was quoted a few times. And I am not sure how reading the text verbatim is 'ignoring RAW' As I said a power without an * can only have be augmented by DC and damage based on ML.

[jindra34]

This was the whole basis of the argument last time and I am pretty sure it was quoted a few times. And I am not sure how reading the text verbatim is 'ignoring RAW' As I said a power without an * can only have be augmented by DC and damage based on ML.

So what happens when you have a power on a template that has a manifester level based on the creatures HD and doesn't have augmentations that increase damage or DC, like say a buff spell? Because you are having a case where the rules say you have to treat it as having spent power points where it can't have spent those points.

[DeTess]

All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

Okay, so I think the bolded part is what you're basing the argument that a power can only be augmented to increase the damage and save DC, right? Thing is, that's a may clause, not a must clause or even wording that suggests that that is the only way that powers may be augmented. If anything, it looks like a reminder that powers could change this way to me. Anyway, I'm not a rule expert, but I'm really not seeing the argument there.

[liquidformat]

Okay, so I think the bolded part is what you're basing the argument that a power can only be augmented to increase the damage and save DC, right? Thing is, that's a may clause, not a must clause or even wording that suggests that that is the only way that powers may be augmented. If anything, it looks like a reminder that powers could change this way to me. Anyway, I'm not a rule expert, but I'm really not seeing the argument there.

So I am looking at the totality; of the two entries in the first we have

'When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.'

and in the second we have

'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

Together the rules seem to be saying that you can only boost DC and damage with your pretend PP. I am taking both of the general rules together to get a full understanding of how they function. In this case since giving an exhaustive list of what 'may not' be done would be a bit ridiculous and would require going through every power, they instead tell you what you 'may' do.

So what happens when you have a power on a template that has a manifester level based on the creatures HD and doesn't have augmentations that increase damage or DC, like say a buff spell? Because you are having a case where the rules say you have to treat it as having spent power points where it can't have spent those points.

They aren't real power points and they are there to be spent on damage and DC specifically, so in a case of a power with neither damage nor a dc ML only effects duration and range when applicable.

[lord_khaine]

'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

Together the rules seem to be saying that you can only boost DC and damage with your pretend PP. I am taking both of the general rules together to get a full understanding of how they function. In this case since giving an exhaustive list of what 'may not' be done would be a bit ridiculous and would require going through every power, they instead tell you what you 'may' do.

Except the bolded bit is not a rule or anything like that. Its just an explanation of the notation syste.
Its not all powers who can be argumented. And this just tells us that those powers do not contain any special notation.
Meanwhile, other powers, like for example the Brain Mole's Mind thrust, are manifested at the minimum manifester level (here 1).
So they dont contain any special notation, like its damage, either.

In comparison, the Caller in the Dark's Mind Thrust is manifested at ML 7, so it has a special notation telling it does 7d10 damage.
Thats all this rule says.

They aren't real power points and they are there to be spent on damage and DC specifically, so in a case of a power with neither damage nor a dc ML only effects duration and range when applicable.

Lastly, as an example of this does not only apply to damage or DC, we have the Intellect Devoures Body Adjustment, who are augumenter to heal 2d12.

[liquidformat]

Except the bolded bit is not a rule or anything like that. Its just an explanation of the notation syste.
Its not all powers who can be argumented. And this just tells us that those powers do not contain any special notation.
Meanwhile, other powers, like for example the Brain Mole's Mind thrust, are manifested at the minimum manifester level (here 1).
So they dont contain any special notation, like its damage, either.

In comparison, the Caller in the Dark's Mind Thrust is manifested at ML 7, so it has a special notation telling it does 7d10 damage.
Thats all this rule says.

I am not sure how you get to the conclusion that it isn't a rule, it is in the rules section and explains to you how you should read and understand a monster entry, that seems to fall straight into rules. And nothing you have given as an example contradicts the bolded statement.

Lastly, as an example of this does not only apply to damage or DC, we have the Intellect Devoures Body Adjustment, who are augumenter to heal 2d12.

So my position was anything without an '*' can only be augmented with damage and DCs based on what it says under Psi-Like Abilities entry. In cases where there is an * it augments the PLA however, it is explained to augment it. In no way does your example contradict that.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, the Expansion PLA of psionic Duergar or the Inertial Armor PLA of psionic Githzerai don't *strictly* need augumenting, since even then that's more or less in line with the non-psionic versions. Dromites and Maenads absolutely need their rays to have auto-scaling, though.

[Inevitability]

Phthisic

Psionic trolls, named after... lung diseases? Between this and phrenic, I'm getting the impression someone at WotC dropped out of med school.

6 monstrous humanoid RHD, Large size, and some very good ability scores (23 strength, 12 dexterity, 21 constitution, 10 intelligence, 16 wisdom and charisma). Additionally, those guys get DR 10/magic, cold resistance 10, +8 natural armor. Most notably, they also get regeneration 5, overcome solely by fire and acid damage.

In terms of natural weapons, phthisics enjoy two claws and a bite. The latter also inflicts 1d4 points of intelligence damage, which is a largely irrelevant rider that I guess might still come up from time to time.

Finally, they get a variety of PLAs. 3/day Brain Lock is solid control, and Ego Whip, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier, and 4d10 Mind Thrust certainly have their uses too. 1/day Body Adjustment is underwhelming, and 1/day Catapsi seems situational at best. Overall, their PLAs are a solid and relevant addition.

I guess the main question here would be whether phthisics can use weapons and tools normally. They seem to be bipedal and have thumbs, so for now I'll carefully assume that yes, they can.

Based on this assumption, their good PLAs, and their excellent chassis, in addition to full BAB RHD, phthisics are deserving of +1 LA in my opinion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The nerve makes sense; psionics are brain powers, nerves are brainy bits. Or at least neural bits. But lung diseases? I'm starting to think WotC just started looking for weird words that started with 'p'.

[ViperMagnum357]

Phthisic: 6 Monstrous Humanoid RHD at least provide fill BAB, so a bruiser will not fall behind. 30ft is 10ft slower than average for a Large biped, but not a dealbreaker. Net abilities are +36, well above par, as is the natural AC. Forgettable DR and the PLAs are nothing to write home about, but you get Scent and decent Regeneration. Mind Feed is situational, but it has a 75% chance of OHKO'ing anything with Animal intelligence; not powerful enough to be worth building around since the Multiheaded template adds so much for each head.

Overall, the draw here is decent Regeneration on something with a decent bruiser chassis without garbage mental modifiers. I think the raw stats easily make up for the low speed, and the rest of the package is well worth eating the pile of mediocre RHD. Not a caster or skill monkey, but there is real bruiser potential here.

LA +0, and strong at that, unless I see convincing arguments otherwise.

[MisterKaws]

Definitely not a -0, at least. I'm conflicted between +0 and +1 because the creature ends up with fairly large stats if you consider the stats after you add PC ability scores and WBL. It could easily end up with over +20 attack bonus and AC 30, which makes it almost untouchable and overly accurate. Add in the large size and it might end up being very strong. I think it'd be easier to re-balance the ability scores and the defenses so that they aren't so overwhelming for the level. My vote is LA: +0*.

The nerve makes sense; psionics are brain powers, nerves are brainy bits. Or at least neural bits. But lung diseases? I'm starting to think WotC just started looking for weird words that started with 'p'.

They did that to all the other 25 letters too. At this point I think they might just have a team of employees who are paid to search through dictionaries for monster names.

[Caelestion]

The Troll got +1 LA, so the otherwise very similar Phthisic with its much better mental abilities and additional PLAs to boot can't possibly get less than that.

[StevenC21]

Honestly? I'm going with LA +1.

Those huge ability boosts will be an absolute monster when you take into account the fact that most PCs won't have stats of 10 and 11 across the board. Also, Intelligence damage is nothing to dismiss.

REVISION:

LA +0. They shouldn't lose 9th level maneuvers.

[Celestia]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It's also worth noting that +1 LA will cost them 9th level maneuvers.

[MisterKaws]

It's also worth noting that +1 LA will cost them 9th level maneuvers.

Though considering their natural inclination to Knockback-Dungeoncrasher, this isn't really much.

[ViperMagnum357]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

I agree-I would have given the Troll a low end LA +0 had I been voting back then.

[StevenC21]

I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.

[ZamielVanWeber]

ELH will be an army of -0s. Done. I am tempted to +1. That bite auto wins encounters against low int creatures, such as all animals and some magical beasts.

Also phrenic makes sense: it is a super important nerve. My only guess for phthisic is that they used the original Greek meaning, as in a decayed part [of the mind] and forgot/did not realize that the word had already come to English.

[javcs]

I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.

It would finish off the SRD. And the ELH would probably go pretty fast, what with all the blatant -0s.

[GreatWyrmGold]

They did that to all the other 25 letters too. At this point I think they might just have a team of employees who are paid to search through dictionaries for monster names.

Did they ever stick to one letter of the alphabet for a single system like this before or hence?

I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.

It would be pretty much impossible to rate those without having some idea of how epic-level games should be balanced...which they aren't. Also, I'm pretty sure most would either be -0 or -0*.

[No brains]

It sort of looks like I should pronounce it "fish stick". The Elder Scrolls forums would be pleased.

On topic, that 1d4 int damage is going to trivialize any encounter with animals (tho 8RHD already does that). You can 1-shot dire tigers, leviathans, and go toe to toe with a mountain giant. Yes I'm leaning on some of the worst monsters from MM2, but it's still worth thinking about the breadth of enemies that can be downed in one bite.

[liquidformat]

So As things stand if we aren't going to change the troll who is at +1 with 7 giant rhd then the absolute minimum LA for Phthisic is +2, this is troll+ with less and better rhd so I can't see an argument for going any lower unless we edit the troll.

If we drop troll to +0 I still think this should be +1 since it is better than a troll with less and better rhd.

Also by virtue of being a monstrous humanoid these guys are proficient with simple weapons by virtue of rhd so their hands work just fine.

[Remuko]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

Agreed. +0 from me

[Efrate]

+1. It is a straight upgrade to a regular troll. Even if you go to troll as a +0, it's better all around and I think that is deserving the +1. Puts you as a great beatstick same level polymorph comes online which is a pretty noticeable power spike for anything that wants to smack things in melee. As good as 9th level maneuvers are I think martial adept with 8ths and the starter package is fine. It also builds into a pretty good dungeoncrasher/zhent fighter, and would be perfectly reasonable as an incarnum user.

[unseenmage]

Arguing that a previous mistake (troll at +1) justifies another mistake isnt a very solid argument.

+0 to this thing.

Because I'm judging it on it's own merits (or lack thereof) rather than justifying a choice with old data we've since learned better than.

EDIT sure, +0 for the troll

[Inevitability]

The Troll got +1 LA, so the otherwise very similar Phthisic with its much better mental abilities and additional PLAs to boot can't possibly get less than that.

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

I agree-I would have given the Troll a low end LA +0 had I been voting back then.

So honestly, I feel like the troll would fall under 'very similar base monster that might deserve an update'.

Everyone, you can vote for the regular troll's LA again if you desire so. If you only vote on the phthisic's LA, I will assume you don't have a particular opinion on the troll, so keep that in mind.

[StevenC21]

I'll vote LA +0 for the troll.

[MisterKaws]

Did they ever stick to one letter of the alphabet for a single system like this before or hence?

That I know? No. Would I be surprised? Not at all.

+0 for Troll, by the way.

[liquidformat]

So using the classic water orc barb 2/warblade 4 or fighter 4 as baseline; troll is net 18, 2 bab behind however it has +4 str(+2 if water orc has enlarge person) so should hit the same as water orc (with 1 less attack), similar hp at ecl 6, +5 NA and +4 Dex give a nice defensive bonus, and takes a huge hit to all mental stats in exchange for regen 5.

Over all I think Troll just barely has enough to be a comparatively capable beatstick, your going to have better survivability but constantly be behind other martials in iteratives as well as prc entry which is a big deal. +0 LA for Troll seems reasonable for troll.

Now onto fish sick, it has full BAB with +12 str which puts it +4 above standard water orc and +2 above enlarged water orc; either way that is a decent jump in power. +8 NA and +2 Dex so it should have a net +9 to ac compared to a water orc barbarian with enlarge person also mental barrier gives an decent bonus in a pinch. At ECL 6 a water orc barb 2/warblade 4 should have comparative hp but will outpace the water orc in a level placed in a comparative build. All of its mental stats are better and with +6 wis and two good saves you can expect to outperform the barbarian in the save department. Brain Lock, Mind Thrust and Ego whip give you some handy ranged attacks with no added effort and dimension slide gives some nice tactical maneuverability. When you add in DR 10 Res Cold 10, scent and regen 5 you have a pretty good build right out of the block. It is a great candidate for Runescarred Berserker and with +0 can easily enter at the same time as the water orc. It also does well with a psychic Warrior dip though it doesn't need it.

Across the board Phthisic is better than a water orc barb 2/warblade 4 or even a ater orc warblade 6, heck it is better than water orc dragon born barb 2/warblade 4 which normally gets a book thrown at you for asking. I think +1 LA for fish sick