Mulan (2020)

[Kato]

Just a short note regarding my earlier complaint about the fancy fighting / wuxia: it's not a big issue for me and in no way a deal breaker but the cartoon went with rather grounded (little) fight scenes and somewhat more importantly, I prefer Mulan to be a 'realistic' heroine as far as possible. Someone who gives the impression 'if you are smart and work hard, you can do the same', not 'I'm special and better than the normal you'.

[Anonymouswizard]

Not... really. Most of the changes in that movie were good, just basic improvements to a threadbare concept. They gave every character more than what the original animation provided, like the Prince having any characterization whatsoever and... actual lines to perform. Or giving Cinderella and the Prince an actual basis for their romance beyond being two attractive people in the same physical space. They also took out the mice - for the most part - that took up roughly half the original animated movie's run-time, and replaced them with people doing things.

The original Cinderella is not a good movie, narratively speaking. Lovely animation and songs, not much actual depth or character.

The argument comes down to where the focus should be, and the bit that confuses me is how the film that gave her more focus also made her a worse character. The one from the original film obviously wasn't the most mentally healthy (I mean, speaking to birds), had a temper, and didn't have anybody she could have meaningful interactions with, but also had the willpower to not give up. It's a shame the film doesn't focus on her more, because she's actually interesting.

Really, the only major letdown with the animated film is the annoying focus on the mice and the resulting lack of focus on the Prince. I do get the rough idea was that Prince Charming wasn't somebody you'd really meet until the ball, but it just doesn't work. On the other hand I'd much rather move the ball towards the middle of the film and have Charming and Cindy run into each other when he's searching rather than beforehand. Let the ball be the magical first meeting (and actually show them getting to know each other there!) and then build from there, although looking at other adaptations I might be in the minority there.

So like, I get most of the changes in the film (because the animated version needed some pest control), but at the same time I hate what was done to the main character.

Also, original fairy godmother is best fairy godmother.

[Traab]

But I didn't say Sword in the Stone did I? I said King Arthur and I was not referencing specifically previous Disney work with King Arthur.

Sword in the Stone (Disney 1963) is based off TH White's The Once and Future King (1958) and specifically the first part of the series The Sword in the Stone which was released as a stand alone in 1938. But my point is I can list about 3 dozen King Arthur Romances, Lineages, Stories, etc that were written from 800 AD to 1800 AD. Most of them are contradictory. Let alone the more modern stuff from the 1850s on. There are so many King Arthur stories and so many Mulan stories.

Thus most likely even if you have a primary source for your work, you are going to take inspiration and the best of ideas from multiple sources and blend them together to form a cohesive whole with hybrid vigor. There is no one true inspiration source, no pure originator with something that is pure folklore and the folklore then inspired dozens of "romance" stories. (Romance here is not roman or in related to coupling but instead of telling a heroic tale from a bygone year in a specific style. Now technically you shouldn't call the Mulan and similar stories Romance stories for that is a term we are supposed to use only with Europe, but it works here.)

-----

Disney has never claimed this is to be a 1:1 remake with any of their live action stuff from the 2010s, and quite the opposite with many of the productions where they stress it is going to be different than the original. Well Mulan is one of the things Disney has stressed is going to be different than the original.

Now fans may not want this, and fan speculation has already gone overboard, but you can't control fans and their dreams and aspirations, you can only credit 1st hand sources saying Disney has said X in their publicity for the movie and so on.

I know where disneys sword in the stone came from, heck, I have the book, its a pretty good read, MY point though, was that they were making a live action version of a very specific mulan story. the disney animated one. Therefore it doesnt matter that there may be two dozen other versions of mulan sprinkled throughout history, they arent making any of those, they are making a live action version of their own animated movie. And because of that, they should stick to the general tone of their cartoon version and messaging. When they made beauty and the beast, aside from creating nightmare fuel animated furniture, they stuck pretty dang close to the animated version. When they did a live action version of aladdin, aside from the new version of the genie, because you cant copy robin williams, they again stuck fairly close to the original. No it wasnt a shot for shot remake, but they also didnt really change the underlying message either. Now Dumbo is pretty clearly an exception to this general rule I will admit, but in the main, unless you are advertising it as a reboot, you should stick to the version you are revisiting.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

From what I am reading in this thread I can't buy into the reasoning this is closer to the source material. If it is a stand alone movie and not a remake that is one thing. But as a remake there are certain aspects from the original that are needed if Disney wants to draw in the crowds. However that is an argument for another day.

On the merits of the trailer itself the movie appears as meh from first impressions. It seems the story presented is Mulan simply joined the army to escape an arranged marriage. I see very little in terms of who the villian is unless the riders in black are suppose to be the Mongolian invaiders because the troupe of bad guys weare black clothing is used. Actors can't say I'm impressed as the were pretty lifeless due to the minimal expressions used. More focus was on the action which I'm speculating will have some high wire nonsense.

Maybe in future trailers these will be addressed but as of now I'm not impressed enough to pay full admittion price for this movie.

[J-H]

My wife watches Korean and Chinese dramas, so the trailer lost me when they had all these clearly East Asian characters speaking English without a hint of an accent. I know what Korean and Mandarin sound like, and not having those sounds was very immersion-breaking for me.

Buuuuut I'm not their target market anyway.

[Brother Oni]

The thumbnail had me worried (how the hell is she holding that bow?) and watching the trailer makes it worse.

It's a pity as the cast looks interesting - Jet Li as the Emperor (makes a change from trying to assassinate an Emperor ), Donnie Yen as the Commander Tung (Commander Shang replacement), among others. It's a shame that it may all be potentially wasted and it turns out to be yet another 'girl power' movie.

Im just worried it will be something like, "Im the only member of my family who can answer this summons, would you rather my crippled elderly father came here instead? Here, let me show off how I can float through the air and stand on spear tips while defeating this entire camp, gonna let me join now?" So it turns into a fighting for acceptance character arc as her gender is known from the start and she struggles to be accepted as a part of the military even though she is clearly awesome.

Her crippled father would have been sent to do his national service in a more useful way, like clerk assistant, prison guard, messenger, canal longshoreman, etc.

I see very little in terms of who the villian is unless the riders in black are suppose to be the Mongolian invaiders because the troupe of bad guys weare black clothing is used.

Except the Mongolians won - see the Yuan Dynasty.

My wife watches Korean and Chinese dramas, so the trailer lost me when they had all these clearly East Asian characters speaking English without a hint of an accent. I know what Korean and Mandarin sound like, and not having those sounds was very immersion-breaking for me.

Michelle Yeoh And Tzi Ma are excellent actors who can speak in English without much of an accent. It's one of the tricky ones to get right - stick with the Chinese accented English and be accused of yellowface, have the actors perform without an accent and be accused of immersion breaking.

[Mith]

Michelle Yeoh And Tzi Ma are excellent actors who can speak in English without much of an accent. It's one of the tricky ones to get right - stick with the Chinese accented English and be accused of yellowface, have the actors perform without an accent and be accused of immersion breaking.

This discussion made me realise why I liked the old martial arts movies out of Hong Kong growing up. They were all subtitled anyways, and as a Hearing Impaired person, I wasn't going to follow the words well anyway.

[Brother Oni]

This discussion made me realise why I liked the old martial arts movies out of Hong Kong growing up. They were all subtitled anyways, and as a Hearing Impaired person, I wasn't going to follow the words well anyway.

Plus the mistaken excellent translations from trying to put Cantonese idioms into written English have become a cult meme.

[Mith]

Plus the mistaken excellent translations from trying to put Cantonese idioms into written English have become a cult meme.

Also true.

[J-H]

Michelle Yeoh And Tzi Ma are excellent actors who can speak in English without much of an accent. It's one of the tricky ones to get right - stick with the Chinese accented English and be accused of yellowface, have the actors perform without an accent and be accused of immersion breaking.

Eh, I don't hold with all that hyper-sensitive consciousness stuff. I grew up with Nazis speaking German-accented English, Russians speaking Russian-accented English, and French starship captains speaking British-accented English.

[Celestia]

Don't go judging an entire movie and story just on one trailer. Not only do they only contain snippets of the film (often including scenes that aren't even in the final cut), but they can (and often are) edited in a way that actively misinterprets the tone/theme/story/etc. of the movie. After all, trailers are made by the marketing team, not the actual filmmakers. For an extreme example of this, just look at the trailers for Bridge to Terabithia.

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, I don't hold with all that hyper-sensitive consciousness stuff. I grew up with Nazis speaking German-accented English, Russians speaking Russian-accented English, and French starship captains speaking British-accented English.

I'm quite a fan of Russian submarine captains speaking Scottish-accented English, myself.

[Anonymouswizard]

Eh, I don't hold with all that hyper-sensitive consciousness stuff. I grew up with Nazis speaking German-accented English, Russians speaking Russian-accented English, and French starship captains speaking British-accented English.

I'm quite a fan of Russian submarine captains speaking Scottish-accented English, myself.

Bah! The French speak French accented English, unless they're speaking English in which case they have an English accent.

Good moaning, fire the record.

You see it all had to do with the painting of the Fallen Madonna with the Big...

[Traab]

I'm quite a fan of Russian submarine captains speaking Scottish-accented English, myself.

How about an egyptian man with a spanish name carrying a japanese sword while talking english in a scottish accent?

[Rodin]

How about an egyptian man with a spanish name carrying a japanese sword while talking english in a scottish accent?

I've never seen Highlander, but wasn't it also the case that there IS a Scottish character in the movie that they got a non-Scottish actor to play?

[Traab]

I've never seen Highlander, but wasn't it also the case that there IS a Scottish character in the movie that they got a non-Scottish actor to play?

Yeah, the highlander himself I think. He was born in long island, went to school in geneva. Christopher Lambert.

[Keltest]

Yeah, the highlander himself I think. He was born in long island, went to school in geneva. Christopher Lambert.

To be fair, after however many hundreds of years of life, you would be troubled to place where the guy came from just by his speech patterns too. Heck, if I remember my timeline correctly, the "English" they spoke in Scotland at the time would only loosely resemble modern English at all, even worse than the actual English spoken in England.

[LaZodiac]

Michelle Yeoh And Tzi Ma are excellent actors who can speak in English without much of an accent. It's one of the tricky ones to get right - stick with the Chinese accented English and be accused of yellowface, have the actors perform without an accent and be accused of immersion breaking.

Controversial third option; do it entirely in Chinese. I've gotten a taste for it since Crazy Rich Asians and Pan's Labyrinth shows us it is possible to at least try to have a completely non-english film. Do it, cowards.

Don't go judging an entire movie and story just on one trailer. Not only do they only contain snippets of the film (often including scenes that aren't even in the final cut), but they can (and often are) edited in a way that actively misinterprets the tone/theme/story/etc. of the movie. After all, trailers are made by the marketing team, not the actual filmmakers. For an extreme example of this, just look at the trailers for Bridge to Terabithia.

At this point we can safely bin basically every Disney live action remake, I'm sorry to say. Did you see the clip of Hakuna Matatta they released for Lion King? You're not wrong that bad trailers for good films exist, but I really doubt anything is saving this.

[Traab]

To be fair, after however many hundreds of years of life, you would be troubled to place where the guy came from just by his speech patterns too. Heck, if I remember my timeline correctly, the "English" they spoke in Scotland at the time would only loosely resemble modern English at all, even worse than the actual English spoken in England.

Top-hole. Bally Jerry, pranged his kite right in the how's-your-father; hairy blighter, dicky-birded, feathered back on his sammy, took a waspy, flipped over on his Betty Harpers and caught his can in the Bertie.

[Brother Oni]

Heck, if I remember my timeline correctly, the "English" they spoke in Scotland at the time would only loosely resemble modern English at all, even worse than the actual English spoken in England.

And if you've ever heard a Glaswegian speaking, nothing has changed in hundreds of years.

Controversial third option; do it entirely in Chinese. I've gotten a taste for it since Crazy Rich Asians and Pan's Labyrinth shows us it is possible to at least try to have a completely non-english film. Do it, cowards.

Unfortunately then you'd get negative comments from the Chinese community for most of the cast speaking Mandarin in non-mainland accents (Tzi Ma and Donnie Yen in Cantonese accents, Michelle Yeoh in a Malaysian accent, with only Jet Li being capable of it).

It was one of the reasons why Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon did so poorly in mainland China - Chow Yuen Fatt also speaks Mandarin with a Cantonese accent, with only Zhang Ziyi and Chang Chen being excused of the main cast (the former speaking with a mainland accent, the latter because of his character being a western barbarian).
The way I've heard it described is like watching a Regency era drama (eg something from Jane Austen), but with the cast speaking with a mix of American, English and Australian accents.

[Rodin]

The way I've heard it described is like watching a Regency era drama (eg something from Jane Austen), but with the cast speaking with a mix of American, English and Australian accents.

So, a Regency era drama then?

[Keltest]

And if you've ever heard a Glaswegian speaking, nothing has changed in hundreds of years.

I feel incredibly proud of the fact that I almost understood like 85% of what he was trying to communicate. I assume the parts I didn't get were profanity of some kind.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Eh, in terms of 'film wushu' this ranks at about one Xia.As in it's pretty, and it's outside the realm of human ability, but they aren't lightfootinge everywhere. I certainly wouldn't mind prettier martial arts in exchange for no Mushu an Cricket.

That's what I was thinking too, and I'm actually a little disappointed that the wuxia atmosphere feels a bit...mild? I guess they have to tone things down for American audiences, but it feels like it's just kind of a gateway wuxia film. Which isn't the worst thing! Maybe it'll get more people into stuff.

I don't really see a logical reason to be freaked out about the arranged marriage scene, which was literally taken from the animated movie directly. "Settle into your role in society like a proper woman" was absolutely one of the pressures being leveraged against Mulan in the cartoon, and she chafed against that. It's very clearly part of her motivation for leaving, and part of her reward for being courageous and protecting her father is to be given a solution to the cultural problem that also sits well with her (i.e., Shang coming home as a husband who actually respects her will to fight).

[Brother Oni]

So, a Regency era drama then?

Well, a non-BBC Regency era drama.

I feel incredibly proud of the fact that I almost understood like 85% of what he was trying to communicate. I assume the parts I didn't get were profanity of some kind.

Surprisingly while there's plenty of insults and mocking speech, there's not a single profanity in that whole rant.

[Anonymouswizard]

The way I've heard it described is like watching a Regency era drama (eg something from Jane Austen), but with the cast speaking with a mix of American, English and Australian accents.

Ah, an American-produced Regency era drama.


Giving it a thought, I suppose it might be like a Robin Hood film where Robin had an Australian accent (although the worst I heard was when it wandered all over England). Actually there are certain accents I associate with both Robin of Locksley and King Arthur, that being low and high RP (despite neither being historically accurate, Arthur was Welsh out Cornish if he existed at all), so maybe I'm just a bit weird.

[Traab]

Ah, an American-produced Regency era drama.


Giving it a thought, I suppose it might be like a Robin Hood film where Robin had an Australian accent (although the worst I heard was when it wandered all over England). Actually there are certain accents I associate with both Robin of Locksley and King Arthur, that being low and high RP (despite neither being historically accurate, Arthur was Welsh out Cornish if he existed at all), so maybe I'm just a bit weird.

*cough* Sorry, I couldnt resist.

[LaZodiac]

If China doesn't like how it sounds in Chinese spoken by Chinese-American people then they can dub it. They'd do that anyway, and I want to make foreign-language films more of a thing in the west.

[Psyren]

I really don't quite see what leads you to believe she's not (also) motivated by love for her family I mean, the capable woman bit was always part of the narrative and I don't see anything in those 90 seconds that contradicts either motive..

I don't feel like I can say much from the short trailer but... It seems they'll make her some superhuman fighter with incredible acrobatics and able to fight a hundred common men or something... What's wrong with just being normally capable and smart?

I admit its been awhile since I watched mulan, but wasnt she also hesitant but not outspoken about not wanting to be setup with a husband? Like, you could tell she wasnt into the idea but was going through with it because, realistically, what choice did she have? That part seems to line up fairly well in the remake.

This, but also - if they alter her motivation, who cares? As long as it is set up and explained well in the context of this story. Adaptations can and should change things if it makes for a better story, particularly if they do so because a theme is incongruous or tone-deaf with regards to current sentiments. It's the same reason I didn't complain when they didn't repeat Doctor Strange's Ancient One as a Fu Manchu-twirling stereotype. And yes, tossing Mushu (who drove 80% of the plot last time around) in favor of Mulan herself having more agency is also a good thing.

[Keltest]

This, but also - if they alter her motivation, who cares? As long as it is set up and explained well in the context of this story. Adaptations can and should change things if it makes for a better story, particularly if they do so because a theme is incongruous or tone-deaf with regards to current sentiments. It's the same reason I didn't complain when they didn't repeat Doctor Strange's Ancient One as a Fu Manchu-twirling stereotype. And yes, tossing Mushu (who drove 80% of the plot last time around) in favor of Mulan herself having more agency is also a good thing.

I'm not convinced that "Mulan runs away from all her responsibilities, with no other motivations." is an improvement to the story. Certainly her situation is not great, but the altruism of taking her father's place is kind of an important part of her character, IMO.

[Psyren]

I'm not convinced that "Mulan runs away from all her responsibilities, with no other motivations." is an improvement to the story. Certainly her situation is not great, but the altruism of taking her father's place is kind of an important part of her character, IMO.

Runs away from her responsibility to... do what exactly? Be a brood mare with no agency of her own?

I'm going to hazard a guess that your definition of "improvement" is pretty far south of mine.