OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[Lord Torath]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.

Wrong goddess of death. Hela is Thor's sister in MCUverse. Hel is Thor's niece (also possibly Redcloak's Niece, depending on which epileptic tree has been sneezing on you lately) in the OotSverse.

[Rogan]

You can be sure, some dwarf soules can hardly believe their luck

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, way to go Thor! And Loki!

Thanks, Rich!

Subtlely? yeah, "no." That's anything but subtle.

I've been known to pronounce the "b" in Subtle in situations like this. Just to make it clear that this isn't quite correct.

Edited to add:

Wrong goddess of death. Hela is Thor's sister in MCUverse. Hel is Thor's niece (also possibly Redcloak's Niece, depending on which epileptic tree has been sneezing on you lately) in the OotSverse.

Shirley, we are all RedCloak's niece.

[Forikroder]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

Durkon died with Honour but was still a host so no

[Peelee]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.

[kiapet]

This comic is the latest in a string that got a genuine laugh out of me. Thanks Giant, I needed that today.

[Forikroder]

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.

shoulda just let her kill durkon and then kill the Vampire representing her vote though, guess there being optimists about it all though

[Peelee]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

Short answer, no. Vampire hosts get their souls held captive until the vamp is destroyed. The whole soul process is short-circuited, and they're not contested or judged or whatever until the soul is freed.

[Cirin]

If Hel was smart, she'd realize that she's being watched. . .exactly like she thought she wasn't, if she intervenes then the rest of the deities can intervene against her. She's lost the stealth she thought she had.

. . .and while she's distracted on that, they're going to claw back a LOT of Dwarven souls.

She's being outmaneuvered so badly, and she doesn't even realize it yet.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hahaha. I laughed at the absurd idea of bureaucracy being used for good. So much so I didn't shorten it to lol.

A heart attack for durkon? its a good idea in theory, and this is a good plan made up by hel in the short term, though she didn't anticipate thor and loki working together.

Great page.

[Peelee]

shoulda just let her kill durkon and then kill the Vampire representing her vote though, guess there being optimists about it all though

And then the gods who voted to blow the world kill the non-vamped council members and the competing gods kill all the vamps and dominated council members and the vote ends tied but Dvalin is pissed and hey new snarl.

This looks like a "they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun" situation. The only fix, IMO, is to defuse the situation, not escalate.

[GregTD]

Wow, that is vicious!

I love it!

Thor and Loki, Brothers, working together to block their sister

[Schroeswald]

Bwahahahaha! First time I've actually laughed out loud for any comic in awhile, 10/10.

[Cirin]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

It seemed pretty clear if she ignored them, then she'd be defaulting on Thor's claim to the soul.

Hel gets all souls, except for those that die honorably.

Thor (and Loki and other deities apparently) can challenge Hel's claim on a soul after death. Apparently there's no expiration date/statue of limitations on that claim either.

Theoretically, it implies if Hel were to just completely ignore his claims, Thor could claim EVERY Dwarven soul that's ever died and he could free them all. Hence she has to at least acknowledge his claims and not just go about her business while he stands there and claims souls.

. . .that's at least my reading of the situation.

[GregTD]

"But...giant monster!"

That line makes me laugh every time.

Poor Hulk, having the rules changed on him like that

[gatemansgc]

hel is gonna find herself so drained of souls after all this that she's not going to be able to act, that's my take.

[GregTD]

It seemed pretty clear if she ignored them, then she'd be defaulting on Thor's claim to the soul.

Hel gets all souls, except for those that die honorably.

Thor (and Loki and other deities apparently) can challenge Hel's claim on a soul after death. Apparently there's no expiration date/statue of limitations on that claim either.

Theoretically, it implies if Hel were to just completely ignore his claims, Thor could claim EVERY Dwarven soul that's ever died and he could free them all. Hence she has to at least acknowledge his claims and not just go about her business while he stands there and claims souls.

. . .that's at least my reading of the situation.

I think it's simpler than that: Thor is right there, watching her. If she tries to do something while he's there, he will see her do it, and can act immediately against her.

So long as there's a God there watching her, she can't "sneak" in any actions

[TuringTest]

Now, speaking of distractions...

Now who's subtlety distracting who?

Was there anything subtle about that?


It's nice that Thor got to play a completely-and-undeniably-legal trick on her.

[Forikroder]

And then the gods who voted to blow the world kill the non-vamped council members and the competing gods kill all the vamps and dominated council members and the vote ends tied but Dvalin is pissed and hey new snarl.

This looks like a "they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun" situation. The only fix, IMO, is to defuse the situation, not escalate.

how many of the ones who voted yes even still want to?

if Hel kills his priest then hes allowed to retaliate by killing her priest, the rest of the gods have no excuse to intervente or even any desire to at this point

[Wraithfighter]

One of the more interesting things I've been noting in this arc has been all of the rules lawyering that's been going on. Hel's plan relies entirely on taking rigid rules and twisting them for her own ends. Durkon was placed in a situation where he was heavily restricted in what actions he could take, and played the rules just well enough to make things work.

Hell, the whole battle at the Godsmooot was filled with almost every character finding a way to fight within the rules.

And yeah, once again, we've got the good gods (...well, Good and Neutral) doing what they call to stymie Hel's plan... all while following the rules.

Can't break the rules, after all :D.

[FireJustice]

See?
that's why I fell in love with this comic.

Really clever.

Isn't a coincidence that it cointains Thor

[02youeng]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

This was one of my two theories! That, or she'll relinquish so many souls she'll lose a relevant amount of her power, and thus the plan hits a snag.

[Peelee]

how many of the ones who voted yes even still want to?

if Hel kills his priest then hes allowed to retaliate by killing her priest, the rest of the gods have no excuse to intervente or even any desire to at this point

>0. That's all it needs to be.

Also, no. If one God directly interferes with the world and another God does in kind, that doesn't even things out for all the other gods. They got an advantage over Tyr, for example, who got zero direct interferences. Think he'd let that slide? I don't.

[Forikroder]

>0. That's all it needs to be.

if Hel kills Thors priest and then Thor kills Hels priest then [unrelated god] kills Thors priest then Thor just kills that gods priest, since Hel wasted her move killing a priest with no bearing on the vote the Yes gods will always have the advantage by being one up on the "killing vote relevant priests" race as long as the yes gods kill a vote sensitive priest in exhange for there priest being killed everything works out fine

[GregTD]

If Hel was smart, she'd realize that she's being watched. . .exactly like she thought she wasn't, if she intervenes then the rest of the deities can intervene against her. She's lost the stealth she thought she had.

. . .and while she's distracted on that, they're going to claw back a LOT of Dwarven souls.

She's being outmaneuvered so badly, and she doesn't even realize it yet.

+1

Yep, this is what happens when you get so locked into what you're planning on doing, that you can't respond successfully to what the other guy is doing.

See: David Weber's discussion of "Dominance and the Crease" in "Flag in Exile"

[Peelee]

if Hel kills Thors priest and then Thor kills Hels priest then [unrelated god] kills Thors priest then Thor just kills that gods priest, since Hel wasted her move killing a priest with no bearing on the vote the Yes gods will always have the advantage by being one up on the "killing vote relevant priests" race

Why does Hel only get one move in your scenario? Also, how would Thor kill the vampires? Hard for lightning to hit them when they're underground. Also, all the other gods need to do is kill Thor's dwarves; doesn't matter if a priest of Tyr dies and goes to Tyr if the world ends anyway. Tyr ain't got clerics in that fight, so Thor would be doing useless actions by going after that priest (even under the unnecessary "I can kill yours back" rule you want followed).

[endiku]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

[Forikroder]

Why does Hel only get one move in your scenario? Also, how would Thor kill the vampires? Hard for lightning to hit them when they're underground. Also, all the other gods need to do is kill Thor's dwarves; doesn't matter if a priest of Tyr dies and goes to Tyr if the world ends anyway. Tyr ain't got clerics in that fight, so Thor would be doing useless actions by going after that priest (even under the unnecessary "I can kill yours back" rule you want followed).

you think a God would have any difficulty attacking a mortal? or that Thor can only make lightning apear from the sky?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

Tyr does have a priest in the pool and voted yes

and im assuming each god only gets one unprovoked move because the other gods then stop them from making any other rule breaking moves/dire consequences for breaking the rules multiple times

[Misna]

What if Loki and Thor make Hel accidentally agree that it is honorable for dwarves to die due to the world being destroyed?

[Doug Lampert]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

What larger message? The Dwarven honor system, which is based solely on conduct at death, not on how you live, is consistently presented as a horrible thing.

With the dishonorable death removed, those souls are now judged for their actual actions in their entire lives, including how they died.