OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Only Loki can make ‘Hi, Pumpkin’ sound badass.

The Noted Expert seems familiar - looks a lot like one of the Ettin Heads in How The Paladin Got His Scar.

Thank you! I knew he looked familiar!

Even though it's distinctly lawful, I wanna say that this was a Loki plan. It feels like a Loki plan.

Besides making for a great distraction, Thor and Loki are totally bailing out hundreds of thousands of souls right now. A century seems kinda short, actually, considering Dwarven lifespans.

Thor said he wasn’t going to try to argue for the whole century, that tell us nothing about how far back that filing cabinet goes, nor how many more are behind that door. Get in and start the fillibusting so you can see Hel’s face as she realizes what’s happening and then let Loki do the actual fast-talking. That’s the one thing he’s actually competent at after all.

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

No vampire is voting on anything.

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.

Which says nothing about Hela from the MCU. I am told she is indeed badass.

[Forikroder]

No vampire is voting on anything.

aside from the one in the godsmoot they left behind

[Fyraltari]

aside from the one in the godsmoot they left behind

Hel's voting, not her.

[Forikroder]

Hel's voting, not her.

hels voting through her, hel needs a high priest present for her vote to count

[ASCIInerd73]

No vampire is voting on anything.

Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.

[Peelee]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

The larger message is "the dwarves got a raw deal." Humans in the comic openly gape at how it affected their society. "Honor" for Dwarves means not living to old age and dying peacefully. I don't see that as undesirable behavior, I see that as arbitrary standards. Literally the first example we see in this strip is a woman who died of pneumonia. How dare she, apparently.

I do agree, though, that this showcases Thor's chaoticness.

you think a God would have any difficulty attacking a mortal? or that Thor can only make lightning apear from the sky?

I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

Also, "no directly interfering" seems like a pretty toothless rule if the only drawback is "one other God gets to interfere as well." Not to mention how easily that could be gamed.

Which says nothing about Hela from the MCU. I am told she is indeed badass.

True, but I haven't heard anything either way. I defer to your judgment.

Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.

Assuming a single vampire, yes. We know that is not the case though.

[Forikroder]

I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

that was thor indirectly intervening by making a thunderstorm and hel being subtle to not get caught

[Kereminde]

There's a line from The Vor Game, by Lois McMaster Bujold: "The key of strategy... is not to choose a path to victory, but to choose so that all paths lead to a victory."

Thor's read this book, I think. :)

So have I, and Miles Naismith is only slightly less awesome than Miles Vorkosigan. Mind you, this doesn't bring to mind "The Vor Game" for me - it brings to mind the climax of "A Civil Campaign", which was also proving Ivan was really capable in his own way.

Also, Loki brought the Filing Cabinet of Holding, I see.

[Fyraltari]

Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.

First, I was just being my nitpicky self.
Second, it doesn't mater since any soul that has reached an afterlife cannot be at the same time trapped by a vampire inside their own former body for reasons that should be plainly obvious.

I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

Also, "no directly interfering" seems like a pretty toothless rule if the only drawback is "one other God gets to interfere as well." Not to mention how easily that could be gamed.
Assuming a single vampire, yes. We know that is not the case though.

This already came up.

[Draconi Redfir]

The Gods must be crazy

[Cicciograna]

Thor and Loki are the best bros.

[Peelee]

that was thor indirectly intervening by making a thunderstorm and hel being subtle to not get caught

Which brings the number of examples in favor of my argument to >0. Do you have any examples in favor of your argument?

[endiku]

With the dishonorable death removed, those souls are now judged for their actual actions in their entire lives, including how they died.

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

[Ralanr]

Thor and Loki, together unstoppable.

[Peelee]

This already came up.

Indeed, that shows the rules to be quite full of teeth after the fact and more than just "the injured party can retaliate only to the same degree and then all's good."

[Fish]

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life...

Sure, if there were such a system, then this comic would undermine it. However, that is not the purpose of this system.

This system does not reward “behavior during life.” It rewards “circumstances at the moment of death,” which is not always within the individual’s control. I don’t see much about the system in question worthy of being saved.

[Jay R]

Wonder what a Chaotic Good god and a Lawful Evil god movie would look like...

Hijinks ensue.

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

That's not my reading of Hel's Bargain (strip #1083). This was an intentional con game to reduce Hel's power and influence.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

The "honor" deal between Thor, Loki, and Hel was always an unfair political swindle of gods playing word games for mortal souls. I don't see that it's gotten any worse when they are now using it to save the entire world.

[Kereminde]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

Thor is looking at a bigger picture, as if the plan goes off - Hel gets every currently living soul. That's why he's willing to subvert the system so obviously, and this is the point where the system breaks down if she wins anyway. What is more likely to come out of this is The Bet being called off instead of being twisted into the purpose Hel is working towards.

Of course, with no Bet underlying the whole problem . . . Hel no longer has motive to agree to the world being blown up other than spite. (She'd do it, but it would benefit her not at all.)

[Forikroder]

Which brings the number of examples in favor of my argument to >0. Do you have any examples in favor of your argument?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html

2nd panel if she breaks the rules first she loses

[Fyraltari]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.

[Lord Torath]

Thor and Loki, Brothers, working together to block their sister

Nope. Hel is Loki's daughter and thus, Thor's niece.

[Kantaki]

Loki and Thor are awesome when they work together.
Well, awesomer.

„Hi Pumpkin” made me literally cackle like a madman.

[Cifer]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

[Peelee]

Thor is looking at a bigger picture, as if the plan goes off - Hel gets every currently living soul. That's why he's willing to subvert the system so obviously

Hes willing to subvert the system so obviously long before that.

[Kereminde]

Hes willing to subvert the system so obviously long before that.

That's not subverting the system, that's doing your job advocating for what you believe. (Assuming the details are correct, and not made up, which we can't say for certain.) This one time we do know he's subverting things, knowing/guessing she won't have time to argue with him, and intentionally tying up her time arguing for souls he probably wouldn't have a right to claim otherwise.

The fact Loki is coming in behind him kinda adds to that feel of "yeah, he's subverting the system to prevent this major catastrophe from going off quite as neatly". There's still a chance it could happen, right now. (We all sort of know it's not going to happen, because narrative structure and the motion of the plot is going to suggest the Order's allies manage to stop it.) But Thor's interference with Loki is to keep Hel from doing anything "while nobody is looking", at the cost of nakedly subverting the system in place.

The benefit is, I don't think many gods are going to really get in the way of it since . . . as mentioned . . . if the world goes up, Hel becomes more powerful than the others due to the weight of souls going into Her domain.

[Sir_Galliant]

1. This was the funniest strip in a while.
2. Extremely clever on Thor and Loki's part; even if the heroes lose (which I doubt will happen), Hel will likely lose a lot of power as well.
3. Hypothetically, would dying of a heart attack directly by a god in the middle of a battle count as honorable?

[Forikroder]

This one time we do know he's subverting things

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

[redzimmer]

It's nice to see that the trickster god isn't going to be keeping things low-key.

... I'll allow this.

[Kantaki]

We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

I mean, it's not like we know why he ran.
Maybe he figured the battle was lost and it was more important to inform whoever his group worked about them getting wiped out.

Or they were delivering a message or something and he tried to get it away from the orcs.

Or he was a coward and justified running with living to avenge his friends being more honourable than pointlessly dying with them.

[endiku]

Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.