OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

That's not subverting the system, that's doing your job advocating for what you believe.

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.

[137beth]

Thor and Loki team up is amazing. I suspect that he might be trying to trick her into breaking the Rules while he watches. I wonder exactly how far Loki is going to push Hel before she snaps.

[Kereminde]

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

I can make a case that one deals with bravery as what the individual believes, rather than the facts of the case. Believing an elm is a heinous enemy . . . would make dying due to a 'wound' taken from one an honorable death, no?

(... if it's not clear by now this system really needs some loopholes closed, Loki's pitch should clear that up. By the by, don't let him near the new rules, we'll never find the loopholes.)

[Kereminde]

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.

Mummy rot does stink rather bad, I must admit.

[Schroeswald]

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably

The point seems to be that she thought she was fighting the enemy so she was acting honorably (in a similar vain as Hilgya, honor to their religion, hers just isn't an accurate depiction of her god).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kereminde

[DougTheHead]

I like that Mildred Thickbelt is obviously so cowardly that she screams in terror upon merely looking Hel in the face.

[Psyren]

Hel's shortsightedness continues to be her biggest weakness.

What about the Sphinx Pox gambit? Has the (air)ship sailed on that?

[Anarion]

Thor and Loki working together is always terrifying.

[HandofShadows]

Epic. Thor and Loki working together. I don't think Hel has much, if ANY chance to win this one.

[Kereminde]

The point seems to be that she thought she was fighting the enemy so she was acting honorably (in a similar vain as Hilgya, honor to their religion, hers just isn't an accurate depiction of her god).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kereminde

Mind you, I'm just working through this because divine negotiations would be one of those . . . things . . . I've had in mind trying to think through for a long time. Because the pantheons really do have to work together to make it all work, and how do you do that if you are supposedly sworn enemies a la Bahamut/Tiamat? As opposed to more rivals in the same sphere of influence like Ares/Athena...

[LunarDrop]

Wow, I'm really impressed with Thor and Loki here. Good on them putting aside their differences for the greater good.
And all those dwarves get a happy afterlife ending too! What a nice little bonus.

[Kereminde]

Wow, I'm really impressed with Thor and Loki here. Good on them putting aside their differences for the greater good.
And all those dwarves get a happy afterlife ending too! What a nice little bonus.

I don't think "greater good" is as much on their minds as "keeping Hel from getting too powerful". In short, they're aligned against a more dangerous foe for the moment. (Along with maybe many other people from the same pantheon.)

[Squire Doodad]

Hel's shortsightedness continues to be her biggest weakness.

What about the Sphinx Pox gambit? Has the (air)ship sailed on that?

I think someone did the math and the Sphinx Pox will take place a week after Belkar is slated to die or something. Basically, it will finish incubating right after everyone saves the day for goodish.

[Doug Lampert]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

You are adding something never seen in the comic. They go to their gods for judgement. That's the total effect of getting their deaths declared honorable.

Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.

We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

See above.

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

Where does he imply that?! He STATES that they will go to their respective god's domains, which is the normal course of affairs. He never says they all go to Valhalla. If they go to their god, as normal, then they are judged there, again as normal.

[DougTheHead]

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."]

He does not say "their new afterlife in Valhalla." He states that they will go to whatever area of the afterlife is consistent with their worship/morality.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

Now that is just rude! Whaat woukd you do in that situation?
Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

[Schroeswald]

Mind you, I'm just working through this because divine negotiations would be one of those . . . things . . . I've had in mind trying to think through for a long time. Because the pantheons really do have to work together to make it all work, and how do you do that if you are supposedly sworn enemies a la Bahamut/Tiamat? As opposed to more rivals in the same sphere of influence like Ares/Athena...

I mean my understanding of mythologies isn't great, but considering that Loki and Thor don't like each other and get into fights a lot (they can have arguments because they have the same color I believe) but have to work together shows that sworn enemies aren't as big here, and the Western Gods haven't been shown in any significant way so understanding how their pantheon works would be hard (while the Northern is easier because several of them are significant-ish characters, and I understand Norse myths more than Babylonian or whatever the westerners are).

[Ruck]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

You have obviously missed the larger message that the Dwarven afterlife process is patently, even monstrously, unfair.

[Sir_Galliant]

Something tells me this distraction had been planned in advance for a long time.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

No. Dying honorably grants them the same process as everyone else, not Valhalla. They'll go to Valhalla only if that happens to be the afterlife that matches their alignment and/or religion.

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.

No, it doesn't? That's the same as dying of a wound received in battle in my book.

I like that Mildred Thickbelt is obviously so cowardly that she screams in terror upon merely looking Hel in the face.

I'd like to see how you would react to an angry evil goddess of death and disease popping up in your field of vision trying to claim your soul for eternal torture.

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."

No, I'm pretty sure they only each get to go to one god's domain.

[Forikroder]

Now that is just rude! Whaat woukd you do in that situation?
Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

assuming it was a fight they couldnt win, maybe he ran as soon as the orcs attacked, got shot for dessertion by his captain, and then the dwarves cleaned up the orcs

[Anansiil]

I almost pity her, being that she was tricked into the current deal structure... BUT she is trying to cheat, and doing so would harm Durkon... so carry on? :P

[Ruck]

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."]

No, I'm pretty sure they only each get to go to one god's domain.

Since "each" is singular, I think we can assume "their" is singular as well.

[Kereminde]

You have obviously missed the larger message that the Dwarven afterlife process is patently, even monstrously, unfair.

And for bonus points, unfair in multiple fashions - it's currently weighted against Hel getting power due to The Bet. It's unfair to the dwarves since The Bet now drives them to die in honor - not just have lived an honorable life, but died in honorable combat. It's unfair this expectation leads dwarves to be more prone to what we would call "suicidal attacks" as age goes on, no matter their disposition before then. A whole life of honorable conduct may mean nothing if they happen to choke on some mead or slip and fall in a bad way. Raising the dead, an option thanks to the D&D magic system, is unthinkable if the person died with honor - no matter how needed they may be in the living world.

I'd say it's monstrously unfair compared to others, but keep in mind we haven't seen enough to really know - aside from Roy's "entrance exam". For all we know all the afterlife procedures could be terrible.

[Doug Lampert]

No. Dying honorably grants them the same process as everyone else, not Valhalla. They'll go to Valhalla only if that happens to be the afterlife that matches their alignment and/or religion.

Specifically, the dwarf's system is unfair.

There's no, die honorably and go to a good place.

It's just, die dishonoraby and go to a bad place no matter what the rest of your life was like. Die honorably, and THEN you get the same deal as everyone else. It is unfair, unjust, and presented as such.

[endiku]

Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

[Giggling Ghast]

I almost pity her, being that she was tricked into the current deal structure... BUT she is trying to cheat, and doing so would harm Durkon... so carry on? :P

I wouldn't. She's a pretty awful god now, and I don't imagine she was much nicer when she was way more powerful.

[Worldsong]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

As Roy's time as being dead showed, all souls get judged and sorted. The Bet is a ridiculous system slapped on top of the normal judgement system which dooms any dwarven soul which didn't die honourablu (independent of how honourably they lived most of their lives) to a horrible afterlife.

I think you might have bought too much into the whole 'die with honour' thing and overlooked the fact that the Bet actually robs dwarves of their fair judgement by judging them solely on a single arbitrary trait. I'm calling it arbitrary because it's been shown that dying from accidents and diseases does not count as an honourable death, meaning a dwarf can end up in Hel's domain due to circumstances completely unrelated to how they lived.

If those souls which Thor is now freeing don't deserve a good afterlife they'll be sorted into something less pleasant. However they will be sorted using the actual judgement system, the one which looks at their entire being rather than 'did this dwarf die with a weapon in hand' (yes there's ways to die honourably without weapon in hand but it's a representation of how ridiculous the Bet is).

This isn't "The ends justify the means", nor is it "Those wacky chaotic gods". It's "We've got an opportunity to let as many dwarven souls go to their rightful afterlife as possible, regardless of whether it's a good or a bad afterlife. And we get to interfere with Hel trying to cheat in the process." Both the ends and the means are good, and it's neither random nor silly (although it's admittedly hilarious).

Throughout the entirety of the comic, whenever the Bet was brought up and what it means for dwarves after their soul, it's been at best depicted as strange and harsh and at worst as abominably unfair. I don't see how Thor and Loki working together against an unfair system and having it actually work is inconsistent with the rest of the comic.

It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

1. Last I checked historical data suggests that any culture with an honour system employed such a system because life was pretty ****ty so the best they could do was at least encourage you to die well.

2. That's an argument for religions being ****ty, not the Bet being a good thing.

[Schroeswald]

It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

But we don't know his specific core beliefs, but running away from a battle doesn't deserve being doomed to Hel (Durkon ran away/retreated quite a bit, the difference between whatshisname and him is that Durkon was better at doing it).

[Peelee]

No, it doesn't? That's the same as dying of a wound received in battle in my book.

Cool motive, still supernatural disease. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Thor there (hush, Aussies), but if a being of pure Law and Neutrality was judging I'd be shocked if that soul went to Thor.