OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

We assume the idealized society we aspire to is the absolute best condition possible, ignoring the many who, for a multitude of reasons, fall through the cracks. Then, armed with righteous self delusion we lay down absolutes by which others should organize their society.

Would the rules of canine social organization apply to house cats? Why, then, should our own flawed values apply to dwarves?

The author has used his comic for a bit of social commentary, which I applaud. However, extending this beyond the points made by the author is a mistake. The dwarven social system might be, overall, more just and have fewer members dropping out or being forgotten than ours. In short, it may be better for dwarves overall than our system is for us.

Hilgya is one of those who were hurt by the system. But nobody has asked, what percentage of the dwarf population is similarly unhappy with their societal expectations? Certainly Durkon's family seems to be content with the situation.

The boy that gets the shaft in Omelas has the right to murder every single person in that city, in an interesting fashion, after a while.

[terodil]

What about ?

Horseshoe theory. :)

@LadyEowyn: Brilliant. So gonna nab that for the next time I have to fill in the 'alignment' box!

[The MunchKING]

The boy that gets the shaft in Omelas has the right to murder every single person in that city, in an interesting fashion, after a while.

You assert that, everyone else disagrees, can we move on?

[The_Weirdo]

You assert that, everyone else disagrees, can we move on?

No. We cannot. Because Brian's completely unsupported assertion of "maybe fewer people fall through the cracks in the dwarven society" isn't only meaningless in face of what was done to Hilgya, it is offensive to those that do fall. Individuals matter. Individuals will always matter. If a utopia is reached by torturing an innocent, then the place is no utopia, it's an evil dystopia.

[The MunchKING]

No. We cannot. Because Brian's completely unsupported assertion of "maybe fewer people fall through the cracks in the dwarven society" isn't only meaningless in face of what was done to Hilgya, it is offensive to those that do fall. Individuals matter. Individuals will always matter. If a utopia is reached by torturing an innocent, then the place is no utopia, it's an evil dystopia.

But the difference is that it isn't BUILT on the suffering of innocents, just because innocents don't fit in. That whole concept that not everything is an evil attempt at torture is what eludes you.

Just because a society isn't PERFECT doesn't mean it's Omelas; and if we're just blanket declaring things offensive, I should think it's offensive to every civilization real or imagined that tried to help people for you to say that because they couldn't help everyone they are equivalent to torturing people for their own gain.

[hroþila]

No. We cannot. Because Brian's completely unsupported assertion of "maybe fewer people fall through the cracks in the dwarven society" isn't only meaningless in face of what was done to Hilgya, it is offensive to those that do fall. Individuals matter. Individuals will always matter. If a utopia is reached by torturing an innocent, then the place is no utopia, it's an evil dystopia.

That is rich.

[arverst_aegnar]

I agree that calling any imperfect society a dystopia is reductionist, and takes away from actual dystopias. But just because many dwarves have found a way to work within the system they've been given, and have even found happiness, doesn't make a system that punishes otherwise good and honorable individuals for something out of their control a good or even acceptable situation.

[The_Weirdo]

But the difference is that it isn't BUILT on the suffering of innocents, just because innocents don't fit in. That whole concept that not everything is an evil attempt at torture is what eludes you.

Just because a society isn't PERFECT doesn't mean it's Omelas; and if we're just blanket declaring things offensive, I should think it's offensive to every civilization real or imagined that tried to help people for you to say that because they couldn't help everyone they are equivalent to torturing people for their own gain.

Look at what Brian has a long history of defending. We aren't talking poverty here. We aren't talking about the lack of a decent welfare system or workhouses or what-have-you. We are talking about a person that's always gone through pains to relativize the wrong done to a victim of a forced marriage coming up with their newest theory: "maybe the dwarven society lets fewer people fall through the cracks".

At the low, low cost of throwing a virgin or another into a volcano, certainly?

Yes, in this case, we very much are talking about deliberate torture. What else would you call a forced marriage?

I agree that calling any imperfect society a dystopia is reductionist, and takes away from actual dystopias. But just because many dwarves have found a way to work within the system they've been given, and have even found happiness, doesn't make a system that punishes otherwise good and honorable individuals for something out of their control a good or even acceptable situation.

I'm not calling any imperfect society a dystopia. I'm calling any society that deliberately sacrifices innocents a dystopia.

[Dion]

Wow! It sounds like Hilgya has a rich and complex backstory, carefully developed over hundreds of panels in dozens of strips!

I fully understand why there’s so much controversy over her richly developed and delicately nuanced history.

But somehow I’m only able to find one or two panels, and they’re mostly just throwaway gags like jello cube races and poison bottles in sandwiches!

Can someone link all the backstory strips so I can read them in their full glory?

Weirdo, you seem to have the most investment in this. Can you show us the strips you’re getting all this backstory from?

[The_Weirdo]

Wow! It sounds like Hilgya has a rich and complex backstory, carefully developed over hundreds of panels in dozens of strips!

I fully understand why there’s so much controversy over her richly developed and delicately nuanced history.

But somehow I’m only able to find one or two panels, and they’re mostly just throwaway gags like jello cube races and poison bottles in sandwiches!

Can someone link all the backstory strips so I can read them in their full glory?

Weirdo, you seem to have the most investment in this. Can you show us the strips you’re getting all this backstory from?

The dwarf with the crossbow standing behind the angry woman in her wedding day is all the backstory we need. It defines her clan and her situation thoroughly. The fact that she later had to flee rather than, oh, I don't know, have her clan arrested for sexual trafficking is an indictment on the dwarven society, one some people here insist on whitewashing.

[Dion]

The dwarf with the crossbow standing behind the angry woman in her wedding day is all the backstory we need. It defines her clan.

Oh wow! Do you have a link? This must be a very important panel to base such an immense argument on it.

[Skull the Troll]

Wow! It sounds like Hilgya has a rich and complex backstory, carefully developed over hundreds of panels in dozens of strips!

I fully understand why there’s so much controversy over her richly developed and delicately nuanced history.

But somehow I’m only able to find one or two panels, and they’re mostly just throwaway gags like jello cube races and poison bottles in sandwiches!

Can someone link all the backstory strips so I can read them in their full glory?

Weirdo, you seem to have the most investment in this. Can you show us the strips you’re getting all this backstory from?

He does this every time Hilgya being a bad person comes up. Just ignore him. He's literally the only person on the forum that thinks this way and he cant understand that that says more about him than it does all of us.

[The_Weirdo]

He does this every time Hilgya being a bad person comes up. Just ignore him. He's literally the only person on the forum that thinks this way and he cant understand that that says more about him than it does all of us.

Get with the program. I'm not defending her attempted murder of Ivan, I'm questioning Brian's idea that somehow dwarven society might be "better".

[Dion]

Get with the program. I'm not defending her attempted murder of Ivan, I'm questioning Brian's idea that somehow dwarven society might be "better".

Can you do it in private messages with Brian?

[The_Weirdo]

Can you do it in private messages with Brian?

That would necessitate him making his claims in private messages with me. As opposed to a forum.

[Dion]

That would necessitate him making his claims in private messages with me. As opposed to a forum.

I haven’t seen Brian respond in any fashion for several pages. Are you absolutely sure you’re arguing with him?

[zimmerwald1915]

Look at what Brian has a long history of defending. We aren't talking poverty here. We aren't talking about the lack of a decent welfare system or workhouses or what-have-you.

Aren't we? The Firehelms seemed to think they would have to live on the street, not that they could apply for a housing voucher at the local relief office, or board at the local settlement house.

Put aside whether they karmically deserved such a fate, and you're left with a picture of a fairly primitive social welfare system.

Although, maybe the dwarves are ruggedly individualistic enough that such a system being in place would be worse for them than living on the street

[The_Weirdo]

Aren't we? The Firehelms seemed to think they would have to live on the street, not that they could apply for a housing voucher at the local relief office, or board at the local settlement house.

Put aside whether they karmically deserved such a fate, and you're left with a picture of a fairly primitive social welfare system.

Although, maybe the dwarves are ruggedly individualistic enough that such a system being in place would be worse for them than living on the street

Did I mention how much I love you today, Zim?

So yeah. Not only are Brian's claims that somehow, ask me not how, the dwarven society may have a better system (thoughout its mistreatment of choice individuals) insignificant in the face of the individuals that do suffer for it, they are also unsustainable in the face of the likely reality.

But you know what's interesting? No one, and I mean absolutely no one wants to be the sacrificed individual, innit? "I nominate you, on account of you not being me", indeed...

[terodil]

No one, and I mean absolutely no one wants to be the sacrificed individual, innit? "I nominate you, on account of you not being me", indeed...

This is blatantly false. History is ripe with inspiring individuals that did, indeed, choose to sacrifice (or even be sacrificed) for the often maligned, but nevertheless worthwhile 'greater good'.

In fact, I'd venture to say that almost every one of us sacrifices on a daily basis, on a tiny scale, sure, but in a non-negligeable way. And most of us are happy doing this because we want to make the world a slightly better place.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Don't bother engaging Weirdo. Just put him on your IL and feel your stress level abate while we wait for the mods to ban him for his advocating genocide on anyone who displeases him.

[Worldsong]

But you know what's interesting? No one, and I mean absolutely no one wants to be the sacrificed individual, innit? "I nominate you, on account of you not being me", indeed...

The concept of people sacrificing themselves for a cause is made up now apparently. Who knew? I didn't.

[Dion]

But you know what's interesting? No one, and I mean absolutely no one wants to be the sacrificed individual, innit? "I nominate you, on account of you not being me", indeed...

This would be a good point if it were true.

But just five strips ago someone sacrificed themselves to a death worm, so your argument kind of falls apart.

[The_Weirdo]

Don't bother engaging Weirdo. Just put him on your IL and feel your stress level abate while we wait for the mods to ban him for his advocating genocide on anyone who displeases him.

Lots of things displease me. I do not wish genocide on them.

Forced marriage goes quite a bit beyond "displeasing" me, as it should go quite a bit beyond "displeasing" any civilized person.

The concept of people sacrificing themselves for a cause is made up now apparently. Who knew? I didn't.

This would be a good point if it were true.
But just five strips ago someone sacrificed themselves to a death worm, so your argument kind of falls apart.

Sacrificing yourself for a cause is one thing. Sacrificing others for a cause or telling others they have no right to be completely enraged at being sacrificed for a cause - let alone one that is not theirs - is quite another.

[Worldsong]

This would be a good point if it were true.

But just five strips ago someone sacrificed themselves to a death worm, so your argument kind of falls apart.

You don't even have to point at a dwarf for this, since someone might pull the claim that dwarves don't count since they've been bred into sacrificing themselves thanks to the Bet.

O-Chul is a better example since if there's a threat hanging over his head forcing him to be honourable it's one he chose willingly when he became a paladin. Yes, he may not have died yet, but he's made it clear on several occasions that for him the idea of saving himself is a foreign concept.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is blatantly false. History is ripe with inspiring individuals that did, indeed, choose to sacrifice or even be sacrificed for the often maligned, but nevertheless worthwhile 'greater good'.

Martyring oneself is hardly the same as being let down by society. It is, among other things, an overt and willful act, whereas most poverty just kinda happens.

[Dion]

Sacrificing yourself for a cause is one thing. Sacrificing others for a cause or telling others they have no right to be completely enraged at being sacrificed for a cause - let alone one that is not theirs - is quite another.

You seem to be confused. You said nobody sacrificed themselves. I pointed out a place i a comic where that someone sacrificed themselves. What point made by me are you arguing with?

[Xyril]

The fact that she later had to flee rather than, oh, I don't know, have her clan arrested for sexual trafficking is an indictment on the dwarven society, one some people here insist on whitewashing.

First off, apologies to the folks who seem heavily invested in maintaining a monopoly on self-righteous outrage, but can we please not minimize sex trafficking, which is an actual thing that happens to actual people, so that you can feel superior to other people on the internet?

The whole arranged-marriage thing tends to look pretty crappy from the perspective of somebody who grew up with liberal democratic values, and it is. It generally reflects a very troubling power imbalance between genders, or at the very least, between a younger generation and the older one trying to force a decision that will last well into the time that most of us agree children should be largely independent from their parents.

That being said, arranged-marriages aren't generally "sex trafficking," nor was Hilgya's in particular. Sex trafficking implies a level of coercion that violates your autonomy and infringes basic human rights. An "arranged marriage" between a literal child and an adult certainly reaches that level of coercion. Cases where people are tricked or coerced or literally abducted from their homes and taken to a country that grants them zero legal protection and no way to support themselves, or where the victim is threatened with violence or controlled through addiction I feel comfortable calling human trafficking.

I am far less comfortable with you drawing a false equivalency between that sort of situation and the more general idea of parents pushing their adult or near-adult children into a marriage using threats of disinheritance or social censure. Unless I am forgetting a very important comic or I missed one from one of the books I didn't read, Hilgya wasn't threatened with death, torture, or imprisonment if she refused to marry Ivan. She wasn't forcibly addicted to narcotics and told Ivan was the only supplier. As far as I can tell, the only consequence of refusing to obey her clan would have been losing the acceptance and support network provided by that clan, and at worst, losing the acceptance and support of dwarven society as a whole.

Which, to be fair, would have sucked, but it certainly doesn't rise to a "sex trafficking" level of coercion. She could have survived--even thrived--even if she were shunned by dwarven society. We know this because Durkon did after he was exiled. We also know this because Hilgya voluntarily did the exact same thing the second she won her "freedom." If she had simply said no to the marriage, she would have found herself in essentially the same position--off, on her own, away from dwarven society, making her living as an adventurer. The only major difference would be that her "oppressive" foot-massaging fiance would be living a happy life, and Hilgya wouldn't have his family's massive wealth sitting in a bank somewhere ready to fund frivolous murders/resurrections.

The whole sex-trafficking equivalency you draw is, at best, patently offensive, and more likely contributes to the sort of apathy and misinformation that undermines any real effort to find solutions to a real problem. So please stop.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The concept of people sacrificing themselves for a cause is made up now apparently. Who knew? I didn't.

They're gonna have to revoke a lot of MoHs and VCs now, given how many were awarded (posthumously) to people who dove on grenades to protect others.

[zimmerwald1915]

O-Chul is a better example since if there's a threat hanging over his head forcing him to be honourable it's one he chose willingly when he became a paladin. Yes, he may not have died yet, but he's made it clear on several occasions that for him the idea of saving himself is a foreign concept.

O-Chul hardly had a choice. He was paralyzed, taken prisoner, bound, and tortured. He intended to make exactly the same sacrifice as the rest of the Sapphire Guard - what actually happened to him was beyond his control.

[Schroeswald]

Lots of things displease me. I do not wish genocide on them.

Forced marriage goes quite a bit beyond "displeasing" me, as it should go quite a bit beyond "displeasing" any civilized person.

Now maybe it’s just me (and by that I mean it seems like you disagree), but in all situations genocide of an entire species for being far too conservative in some respects is evil. Forced marriages are very bad, I believe we all agree with that, but genocide is not an acceptable response to societies that condone them, so I hope you can explain how that’s not what you’re saying or else you are advocating genocide, and genocide of any form is EVIL.