OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

Just substitute Java with Miko, trying to always do the right thing and messing it up, while C++ is more like Hilgya, doing anything it likes and occasionally setting you on fire.

Does Java think it is Luke Skywalker?

[Jasdoif]

LOL. If you have such a harsh opinion of Java, I am not sure how you can sit in the same lunchroom as Javascript programmers without stabbing someone.

That's easy: You don't want them to bleed .bind(this) or arrow functions all over you.

[D.One]

[...] while C++ is more like Hilgya, doing anything it likes and occasionally setting you on fire.

Why would anyone use an Evil language to program?

[MReav]

Well, I like Python because of the bonuses I get having a snake familiar, but Ruby has its advantages as a material component.

[TRH]

Hey, wait a sec, Loki was hypocritical on one count - right before Greg showed up to tie the Godsmoot vote, Loki was indulging in a premature villain gloat!

[Worldsong]

Hey, wait a sec, Loki was hypocritical on one count - right before Greg showed up to tie the Godsmoot vote, Loki was indulging in a premature villain gloat!

Is it really a premature villain gloat if he's saving the world?

[Snails]

Does Java think it is Luke Skywalker?

Rey is Kotlin.

[Xyril]

As awesome as that moment was it kind of relied on the fact that Rich used a ruleset for vampires which he appears to have devised himself, because I don't think I've seen anything like it in any other piece of literature (for vampires specifically, not possession stuff as a whole).

I can't think of anything either, but I'm guessing something explicit must exist, if only because the Whedon-verse played around with the idea. In BtVS, vampires don't have souls, and giving one a soul through external means apparently created a new being (or freed the original human) distinct from the vampire... except some characters in-setting have argued that this is false, and the situation is in fact more analogous to a form of multiple personality disorder because the "good" vampire can't accept the fact that the "evil" vampire's actions really all came from himself, but with tweaks. (Also, IIRC, one of the characters to make this argument was the evil vampire spirit, specifically to torment the good vampire soul, so who knows.)

Whedon's pretty creative about dialogue and genre bending and all that, but vampirism-as-possession strikes me as something he found somewhere and played around with, and not something he made up entirely.

[Snails]

As awesome as that moment was it kind of relied on the fact that Rich used a ruleset for vampires which he appears to have devised himself, because I don't think I've seen anything like it in any other piece of literature (for vampires specifically, not possession stuff as a whole).

While your point here is correct, I think the main problem is that the moral mechanics around vampires iare rather undeveloped.

Somehow it has to be okay that you discover you best friend has been turned, and now you are in a fight for your life. That is a pretty tall order, really. And the more you think about it the more strange it seems. After all, why can't your best friend just shrug and not want to suck your blood?

So the designers, wanting to both allow a fig leaf of explanation of why your undead best friend is now uncontrollably murderous and also wanting to allow the freedom to have him behave within the bounds of more normal behavior, just try not to talk about the details.

He is Evil now. What that means about his behavior can be tailored to the campaign.

Rich took some time to build some specific mechanics around vampirism. And while his choices are arbitrary to a degree, he does a remarkable job of building mechanics that are consistent with what we know about vampires from both rules and myth.

Specifically, I like that the Instant Arise Vampire spell (or whatever it is called) has a downside, a downside that Malack hinted at.

[Algeh]

They have somebody who lives in a tower, and at the peak of every hour he rings a bell down in the main dwarven town, one ring for each hour.

The followup question of "how do the dwarves get any sleep!?" has been sent to committee.

That sounds like something for the Council of the Clans to debate. Maybe that's what their usual meetings are about when they're not in the middle of a "The End of the World" plotline.

[The_Weirdo]

They have somebody who lives in a tower, and at the peak of every hour he rings a bell down in the main dwarven town, one ring for each hour.

The followup question of "how do the dwarves get any sleep!?" has been sent to committee.

The dwarves have a ringer
who lives in a tower
who rings a great big bell
at every hour

Their minds through the wringer
they so need to sleep
but the dwarven council
won't give it a peep.

The Weirdo said kill him
Keltest answered no way
The dwarves do need to know
what time is it all day

Zimmerwald pointed out
That in better systems
All people could dispense
with such impositions

Meanwhile, for the dwarves
Tower dwarf is their bane
They cannot get shut-eye
And are going insane.

[diremage]

I can't think of anything either, but I'm guessing something explicit must exist...

Whedon's pretty creative about dialogue and genre bending and all that, but vampirism-as-possession strikes me as something he found somewhere and played around with, and not something he made up entirely.

The modern understanding of vampires is heavily influenced by Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles (Queen of the Damned, Vampire Lestat, etc) starting from 1976. In that series vampirism is essentially a communally sentient disease. Imagine if the AIDS virus was an actual malevolent evil entity.

The way it's portrayed is actually fairly close to demonic possession or multiple personality disorder. The Beast takes over. White Wolf ran with this in Vampire: the Masquerade, where vampires are -usually- in control of themselves, but every now and again they completely lose it, and they gradually become less human over time, just like what was happening with Durkon being absorbed by the evil vampire spirit.

So, new artistic representation maybe derived from Inside Out, where elements of psyche are made full characters in the media, but same old mechanic.

[LadyEowyn]

No, not on this forum, anyhow. However, I’d be more than happy to debate the relative merits of Java vs C++.

Just substitute Java with Miko, trying to always do the right thing and messing it up, while C++ is more like Hilgya, doing anything it likes and occasionally setting you on fire.

Okay, you’ve successfully made me curious about coding. Which character is Python like? What about r?

[ti'esar]

Dwarf bros are good.

[skim172]

The modern understanding of vampires is heavily influenced by Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles (Queen of the Damned, Vampire Lestat, etc) starting from 1976. In that series vampirism is essentially a communally sentient disease. Imagine if the AIDS virus was an actual malevolent evil entity.

The way it's portrayed is actually fairly close to demonic possession or multiple personality disorder. The Beast takes over. White Wolf ran with this in Vampire: the Masquerade, where vampires are -usually- in control of themselves, but every now and again they completely lose it, and they gradually become less human over time, just like what was happening with Durkon being absorbed by the evil vampire spirit.

So, new artistic representation maybe derived from Inside Out, where elements of psyche are made full characters in the media, but same old mechanic.

I remember a webcomic from years ago, in which vampirism was purely religious in nature, based on good and evil divine power.

Consequently, the cure for vampirism was to get bitten by a priest.

[diremage]

I remember a webcomic from years ago, in which vampirism was purely religious in nature, based on good and evil divine power.

Consequently, the cure for vampirism was to get bitten by a priest.

Was that Dr. McNinja? TVTropes says McNinja made a vampire explode by hitting them with the Pope, but I don't recall seeing that bit.

[Fish]

Durkon did do what he thought was right, and offered to marry her. The offer was rejected, to put it lightly. Her part seems pretty done to me.

Then your thesis must be “Rich brought Hilgya to this (possibly?) final fight at the clan council meeting to cast one (1) spell and serve as the punchline for one gag.”

If Hilgya’s part was done after her rejection of Durkon, she needn’t even be here at this battle. Yet she is. Thus I say she’s here for a reason, and walking out on a fight ain’t it.

[rbetieh]

Then your thesis must be “Rich brought Hilgya to this (possibly?) final fight at the clan council meeting to cast one (1) spell and serve as the punchline for one gag.”

If Hilgya’s part was done after her rejection of Durkon, she needn’t even be here at this battle. Yet she is. Thus I say she’s here for a reason, and walking out on a fight ain’t it.

She could have just been afraid the good sergeant was going to break her skull open if she didnt go help...

[Rogan]

Does anyone here know whether carrying a stone with silence cast upon is against dwarven law?
I huddled highly doubt it will happen, but it would be a way to gain some time.

[rbetieh]

Okay, you’ve successfully made me curious about coding. Which character is Python like? What about r?

There is a book called 7 Languages in 7 Weeks that gives some programming languages personalities. I thought IO being Ferris Beuler was kind of funny.

[Cazero]

Was that Dr. McNinja? TVTropes says McNinja made a vampire explode by hitting them with the Pope, but I don't recall seeing that bit.

Dr. McNinja doesn't have priest bites. If you don't remember the pope-batting, I suggest re-reading The End.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I wonder if durkon will cast dispel magic, or some mass version of it and become stone, only to be dragged out and have the stone be dispelled either by a cleric or some other means.

Its not much of a problem is it? And any aggression by the vampires in retaliation will result in them being turned to stone, so it'd be a win win right?

This doesn't seem like much of an issue. Even if they crush durkons statue into bits, provided a piece of him exists, and they turn that nugget into meat again, they can just restore him like they did roy.

Maybe the prophecy of death and destruction was him being destroyed as a statue and then again as a meat nugget.

Though maybe its rigged with magic thats beyond a typical cure like dispel or stone to flesh or whatever.

[Pampukin]

How do Dwarves even tell time of day, considering they live underground?

I have scoured the 3.5 material with undergrownd fluff, couldnt find a thing, its getting weird, I dont want to think that Narbondel (or whatever the Salvatore dark elves time pillar thing was called, they used fireballs to heat it up, then measured time as it cooled off because in that setting, darkvision is heat vision, which I dont think is cannon in regular d&d) is the default way, most races dont have that much magic. Maybe they use water/sand clocks?
Races of the stone and Underdark have yielded nothing. It feels like such an oportunity for clever fluff. I might run an underground campaign soon and im at a loss.
Its not like time doesnt matter, clerics are time of day dependant to get their spells.
I kind of just want the Hylga thing to end, Im bored of the debate, hopefully another controversial character shows up soon ish so there can be a war about them. Or more Xykon, we all agree he is Chaotic Evil, and at least he gets a chuckle out of me every time he shows up.

[Keltest]

I have scoured the 3.5 material with undergrownd fluff, couldnt find a thing, its getting weird, I dont want to think that Narbondel (or whatever the Salvatore dark elves time pillar thing was called, they used fireballs to heat it up, then measured time as it cooled off because in that setting, darkvision is heat vision, which I dont think is cannon in regular d&d) is the default way, most races dont have that much magic. Maybe they use water/sand clocks?
Races of the stone and Underdark have yielded nothing. It feels like such an oportunity for clever fluff. I might run an underground campaign soon and im at a loss.
Its not like time doesnt matter, clerics are time of day dependant to get their spells.
I kind of just want the Hylga thing to end, Im bored of the debate, hopefully another controversial character shows up soon ish so there can be a war about them. Or more Xykon, we all agree he is Chaotic Evil, and at least he gets a chuckle out of me every time he shows up.

In Ye Olde AD&D Darkvision wasn't a thing, but elves and many other underground dwelling races had infravision, ie they could see heat. If you've read Dragonlance, which also started in 1E AD&D, Tanis occasionally mentions having this as well, albeit weaker because he was a half-elf.

[jwhouk]

Of course, Hilgya might be about to run into The Next Big Threat as she's wandering away from this battle.

[Larre Gannd]

Of course, Hilgya might be about to run into The Next Big Threat as she's wandering away from this battle.

Or maybe she’ll have a change of heart and come back in time to help save the day.

[danielxcutter]

...what the Dolurrh did I miss?

[zimmerwald1915]

Or maybe she’ll have a change of heart and come back in time to help save the day.

Or maybe she'll be confronted by a magically aged-up Kuzdu who will harangue her into rejoining the fight.

Y'know, as long as we're throwing out epileptic trees.

[woweedd]

Or maybe she'll be confronted by a magically aged-up Kuzdu who will harangue her into rejoining the fight.

Y'know, as long as we're throwing out epileptic trees.

That is discrimination! My tree brethren have fought long and hard for their right to service, in spite of their disability. And that's long in tree years, so, ya know, spare a thought. First, The Dwarves racism, now this? What did trees do? Sure, they sprout up like trees and will lay down roots anywhere, but they soon blossom and flower into great specimens. Yet they remained hated: No one wood give peace a chance.

[Larre Gannd]

Or maybe she'll be confronted by a magically aged-up Kuzdu who will harangue her into rejoining the fight.

Y'know, as long as we're throwing out epileptic trees.

It’s not that crazy. I’m not on the ”the Weirdo” bandwagon. I personally think Hilgya is selfish and at least a little evil, if not a lot. That being said, she probably wouldn’t just leave and not come back, in this case, even if that is in her character usually. I don’t necessarily think that this is going to happen, but I think it is a possibility. She does need some semblance of a character arc, and now is as good a time as ever.

That is discrimination! My tree brethren have fought long and hard for their right to service, in spite of their disability. And that's long in tree years, so, ya know, spare a thought. First, The Dwarves racism, now this? What did trees do? Sure, they sprout up like trees and will lay down roots anywhere, but they soon blossom and flower into great specimens. Yet they remained hated: No one wood give peace a chance.

Maybe if dwarves tree-ted them better, trees would leaf them alone. If they actually talked to each other, dwarves and trees would realize they come from the same roots, and would em-bark on a great friendship that others would pine for.

I’ll leave now