OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Rrmcklin]

This doesn't seem like much of an issue. Even if they crush durkons statue into bits, provided a piece of him exists, and they turn that nugget into meat again, they can just restore him like they did roy.

Maybe the prophecy of death and destruction was him being destroyed as a statue and then again as a meat nugget.

In what way would that be Durkon bring "death and destruction" for them all?

I think at this point if your arguing that the thing the story is treating as a big deal and important really isn't, you should understand by now you should reevaluate theories.

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe if dwarves tree-ted them better, trees would leaf them alone. If they actually talked to each other, dwarves and trees would realize they come from the same roots, and would em-bark on a great friendship that others would pine for.

And just like that, all the joy turns to ash in our mouths.

[D.One]

And just like that, all the joy turns to ash in our mouths.

An Ash-tonishing oak-servation.

[Resileaf]

You guys need to make like a tree and get out of here.

[hamishspence]

Or perhaps we should cork it?

[zimmerwald1915]

Or perhaps we should cork it?

Oak-ay. filler.

[Larre Gannd]

Oak-ay. filler.

Yay! I’m part of a community of pun making! I knew branching out would be useful. I hope that didn’t sound too sappy

[KorvinStarmast]

*face palm*

We still doing the arboreal puns?

[Wizard_Lizard]

*face palm*

We still doing the arboreal puns?

It a-pears so. Everyone seems oak-ay with it, and it is a stem for in-tree-esting conifer-sations.

[zimmerwald1915]

*face palm*

We still doing the arboreal puns?

We twigged to it being less disruptive than arguing about morality without referring to politics or religion, and less effort than derailing onto Star Wars.

[D.One]

*face palm*

We still doing the arboreal puns?

Wood you like any other kind of pun?

We twigged to it being less disruptive than arguing about morality without referring to politics or religion, and less effort than derailing onto Star Wars.

I chose tree-punning over Hylgia-discussion anytime, cedar as the sun rising in the morning.

[The_Weirdo]

Wood you like any other kind of pun?



I chose tree-punning over Hylgia-discussion anytime, cedar as the sun rising in the morning.

Don't look at me, my poem had nothing to do with Hilgya.

[Skull the Troll]

In what way would that be Durkon bring "death and destruction" for them all?

I think at this point if your arguing that the thing the story is treating as a big deal and important really isn't, you should understand by now you should reevaluate theories.

He's already brought death and destruction. I could suggest two ways. One is figurative. He has literally brought the goddess of death and destruction into the halls. The second is more literal. They have killed at least dozens, and possibly hundreds since arriving. That is a large enough spree that it would make the news for a week in our world nation-wide. City-wide? It would change the culture of the city thereafter. It wouldnt be hard to imagine a newscast talking about how that person brought death and destruction for us all.

That's not even considering that fantasy prophesies are deliberately vague, and this comic has had some really serious stretches with prophesy language before. Any remember "When the goat turns, Red strikes true?" It didnt require a literal goat. I dont think this one requires everyone to be be literally dead.

[Peelee]

One is figurative. He has literally...[snip] The second is more literal.

I know what you mean, but I had a chuckle at the phrasing.

[diremage]

He's already brought death and destruction. I could suggest two ways. One is figurative. He has literally brought the goddess of death and destruction into the halls. The second is more literal. They have killed at least dozens, and possibly hundreds since arriving. That is a large enough spree that it would make the news for a week in our world nation-wide. City-wide? It would change the culture of the city thereafter. It wouldnt be hard to imagine a newscast talking about how that person brought death and destruction for us all.

That's not even considering that fantasy prophesies are deliberately vague, and this comic has had some really serious stretches with prophesy language before. Any remember "When the goat turns, Red strikes true?" It didnt require a literal goat. I dont think this one requires everyone to be be literally dead.

Durkon brings Word from Thor that some few of the tree brethren are traitors to their pine and stand with the dwarves in Valhalla, and all rejoice at the sapling opportunity for maple syrup. What the dwarves have not logged, however, is that these trees have not turned their leaves, and so when the stumps come forth to harvest their sappy gifts the maples retaliate by pruning the dwarves in a massive deforestation effort.

Blood pours like rain onto the roots, and the maples drink their enemies with a wooden satisfaction.

[Doug Lampert]

I know what you mean, but I had a chuckle at the phrasing.

Agreed.

And agreed that figurative speech is clearly allowed in prophesy. Haley never encountered a gift horse after all. Shall we declare that this means her prophesy hasn't been fulfilled?

[zimmerwald1915]

And agreed that figurative speech is clearly allowed in prophesy. Haley never encountered a gift horse after all.

We don't actually know what that dress was made of, do we? It's only called black, strapless, and laced. The laces at least could be horse leather. [/kidding on the square]

[jokem]

Interesting a Dwarf would fail a Fort save vs a Blindness spell. Maybe he rolled a 1...

[D.One]

Interesting a Dwarf would fail a Fort save vs a Blindness spell. Maybe he rolled a 1...

Dwarves usually don't see as top priority to roll high numbers in a save against blindness, because dark never bothered them anyway^tm.

[Rrmcklin]

He's already brought death and destruction. I could suggest two ways. One is figurative. He has literally brought the goddess of death and destruction into the halls. The second is more literal. They have killed at least dozens, and possibly hundreds since arriving. That is a large enough spree that it would make the news for a week in our world nation-wide. City-wide? It would change the culture of the city thereafter. It wouldnt be hard to imagine a newscast talking about how that person brought death and destruction for us all.

That's not even considering that fantasy prophesies are deliberately vague, and this comic has had some really serious stretches with prophesy language before. Any remember "When the goat turns, Red strikes true?" It didnt require a literal goat. I dont think this one requires everyone to be be literally dead.

Okay, but did you not see what I was replying to? Because I don't really see why you would address this to me otherwise.

[WolvesbaneIII]

In what way would that be Durkon bring "death and destruction" for them all?

I think at this point if your arguing that the thing the story is treating as a big deal and important really isn't, you should understand by now you should reevaluate theories.

Uh, because he brought his own death and destruction, to them all?

It's not even intended to be a legitimate theory. Just a simple means to fulfill the prophecy...technically.

Much like how miko "technically" met the oath she swore, by destroying the mcguffin, despite it not being necesary.

Or how the oracle had so many excuses as to how belkars prophecy was fulfilled.

It's a joke. Though I doubt thats how the giant will fulfil the prophecy.

[Larre Gannd]

Uh, because he brought his own death and destruction, to them all?

It's not even intended to be a legitimate theory. Just a simple means to fulfill the prophecy...technically.

Much like how miko "technically" met the oath she swore, by destroying the mcguffin, despite it not being necesary.

Or how the oracle had so many excuses as to how belkars prophecy was fulfilled.

It's a joke. Though I doubt thats how the giant will fulfil the prophecy.

Well, in theory, since he brought a vampire spirit using his dead body as a tote bag on a motorcycle, with intent to destroy the world, then he did fulfill the prophecy.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Well, in theory, since he brought a vampire spirit using his dead body as a tote bag on a motorcycle, with intent to destroy the world, then he did fulfill the prophecy.

Yes, I guess technically he did.

I do wonder what rich has in mind.

[Schroeswald]

Yes, I guess technically he did.

I do wonder what rich has in mind.

He had in mind the vampire invasion, they all but said it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

He had in mind the vampire invasion, they all but said it.

Thats what I'm thinking. But you never know.

[brian 333]

Mr.Burlew is like an ogre: layers.

He has on several occasions used something to convey multiple meanings. Writers call it conservation of detail. I call it, "Damn, I wish I'd thought of that!"

In this case, I think the prophecy has been fulfilled three ways:

1) Durkula brought vampirism to the north.

2) Durkula sought to rig the vote so the world was destroyed.

3) Durkon's use of the Dwarven Thunderer brings death and destruction to the vampires, benefitting the dwarves, and thus it brings death and destruction for the dwarves.

Layers. Like an ogre. How many more interpretations can you see in such a simple phrase?

Awesome resolution to the prophecy.

[D.One]

Mr.Burlew is like an ogre: layers.

He has on several occasions used something to convey multiple meanings. Writers call it conservation of detail. I call it, "Damn, I wish I'd thought of that!"

In this case, I think the prophecy has been fulfilled three ways:

1) Durkula brought vampirism to the north.

2) Durkula sought to rig the vote so the world was destroyed.

3) Durkon's use of the Dwarven Thunderer brings death and destruction to the vampires, benefitting the dwarves, and thus it brings death and destruction for the dwarves.

Layers. Like an ogre. How many more interpretations can you see in such a simple phrase?

Awesome resolution to the prophecy.

Well, I'm a believer

[zimmerwald1915]

Writers call it conservation of detail.

No they don't. Conservation of detail refers to the doctrine that every element introduced should have some use in the narrative, not that some elements should be susceptible to multiple interpretations. And Mr. Burlew is on record as disdaining conservation of detail in his comic (it is, after all, more useful in some media than others).

[Xyril]

Mr.Burlew is like an ogre: layers.

He has on several occasions used something to convey multiple meanings. Writers call it conservation of detail.

They really don't. What you're describing is part deliberate ambiguity, and probably part something else that I can't think of off hand.

In the real world, making vague and ambiguous assertions when demonstrating remote viewing or fortunetelling, presumably because this increases the range of conditions where they can claim to have been correct. In the comic, it's often more helpful to look at character intent than author intent, because the meta reason for introducing ambiguous statements and predictions really all falls in the general pot of "that character would do it" or "it drives the plot." Instead, it's more interesting to look at how it reveals about a character or their growth, or how it pushes things along.

Take the Oracle's prophesies. We know from the Mark of Justice activation strip (and a few preceding and subsequent ones) that the Oracle can see the future, and that his visions are accurate and detailed enough for him to predict his own deaths and have remedies in place. Why then aren't his answers more obviously useful? His business model is a major reason. He charges by the answer, so it makes sense for him to develop a reputation for complete accuracy and honesty, but not too much candor: If he solves all your problems with a single answer, that will limit repeat business. Even the Memory Charm contributes to this--while it certainly helps with security and with the reuse of his tests, it also means that customers don't leave with the benefit of any contextual clues or other information the Oracle lets slip. Thus, customers get nothing they didn't specifically pay for. There's probably an element of trolling to it--particularly with customers like Belkar, who essentially tried to get four questions answered for the price of one on his first visit. When he keeps putting out the tortured interpretations of events that showed Belkar killed Roy, Miko, and Miko's horse--as according to prophesy--it was part halfhearted attempt at self-preservation and simultaneous full-on trolling.

As for other prophesies, such as Durkon's, things are a little different. Since we know the Oracle has accurate visions practically on-demand, which implies that Tiamat has that power, so we know that it's within the realm of abilities that gods in general can have. However, gods aren't all the same. They have different domains by agreement, we know from Odin that they can have differing levels of capability based on circumstance, and just watching them interact implies that they aren't all equal in intelligence, cunning, self-control, etc. So we don't know that Odin even has the same ability to predict the future accurately enough to say, "Durkon's going to be turned into a vampire, who will return with a bunch of other undead, and murder between 70 and 100 dwarves, then he's going to be resurrected, and then he'll unmurder a few dozen vampires by collapsing the football stadium around them." However, even if he did, that doesn't mean that he--or any other god--doesn't have reason to deliberately withhold information.

Giving away too much accurate information about the future can undermine free will, something that some of the gods seem to value. Heck, the whole reason we're here now is because Dvalin has an almost pathological obsession with not undermining mortal agency. Plus, there may be other constraints at play. I don't recall if Loki explicitly stated whether appearing before Hilgya and saying, "Hey, worshiper, go help the guys fighting the High Priest of Hel, they need a new cleric" would have violated the accord between gods, but it did seem clear that doing so wouldn't have worked on Hilgya, and wouldn't necessarily work on other high level clerics of Loki. However, telling her where to find Durkon (and not mentioning that somebody beat her to murdering him) furthered Loki's goals. As for Durkon's prophecy, Thor certainly thinks Odin was playing chess master, saying what he had to in order to get Durkon in the right place. If this is true, being explicit might not have done the same trick. If Durkon "knew" he had some grand cosmic destiny, he might not have made the right choices to get there. If Hurak knew what Odin had in mind with Durkon, he might have been less willing to kick him out, or he might have inadvertently undermined the plan trying to help prepare Durkon for his greater purpose.

Also, the gods are worshiped, and unlike the Oracle, don't profit transactionally from selling their predictions, so they don't actually need to tell the truth all the time. They might even go as far as to blatantly lie, so long as they don't lie often enough to adversely impact their worship (Loki might be an opposite case.) So it's quite possible that Odin blatantly and deliberately lied in order to put Durkon on the right path. True, he's a good, probably lawful god, but we are talking about the Snarl after all.

[Larre Gannd]

Also, the gods are worshiped, and unlike the Oracle, don't profit transactionally from selling their predictions, so they don't actually need to tell the truth all the time. They might even go as far as to blatantly lie, so long as they don't lie often enough to adversely impact their worship (Loki might be an opposite case.) So it's quite possible that Odin blatantly and deliberately lied in order to put Durkon on the right path. True, he's a good, probably lawful god, but we are talking about the Snarl after all.

But Odin also is a few crows short of a murder.