OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

In the world of just about every revolutionary, ever.

Do you think Bajorans are the same as Cardassians when they kill Cardassians invading their country?

I think Tarquin would be proud of you.

[Dion]

So wait... is Logann is using a dwarven double waraxe, or just a regular dwarven waraxe with an art upgrade?

[The_Weirdo]

I think Tarquin would be proud of you.

Nah. You see, if you are too nice about, "oh, they were just following orders", and so on and so forth, eventually, someone appears with the narrative that the dictatorship wasn't that bad and then someone with the narrative that it was good and so on. And the next thing you know, you're having to explain the basic, absolute truth of history to people as if it's up to debate. It's much better to call everyone that ever worked for a dictatorship an evil monster and treat them accordingly. They do, after all, owe us the lives of the dissidents they killed. "Never again" needs to have teeth.

In such a continent as Tarquin's. Likewise, each and every single stormtrooper is at fault for each and every single death in Alderaan, ever.

[Schroeswald]

So wait... is Logann is using a dwarven double waraxe, or just a regular dwarven waraxe with an art upgrade?

Considering that a double axe has differences from normal axes I'd imagine it's a dwarves double waraxe.

[Keltest]

Nah. You see, if you are too nice about, "oh, they were just following orders", and so on and so forth, eventually, someone appears with the narrative that the dictatorship wasn't that bad and then someone with the narrative that it was good and so on. And the next thing you know, you're having to explain the basic, absolute truth of history to people as if it's up to debate. It's much better to call everyone that ever worked for a dictatorship an evil monster and treat them accordingly. They do, after all, owe us the lives of the dissidents they killed. "Never again" needs to have teeth.

In such a continent as Tarquin's.

If you don't like being compared to a brutal imaginary dictator, maybe you should stop advocating for brutal imaginary behavior similar to said dictator. You've even gone so far as to create a list of reasons for why people "forced" you to behave in this manner.

[Xyril]

In the world of just about every revolutionary, ever.

Do you think Bajorans are the same as Cardassians when they kill Cardassians invading their country?

I'm not sure if I'm wasting my time trying to explain this level of nuance, but many people do make a moral distinction between self-defense and capital punishment. Or in your case, a moral distinction between self-defense and capital punishment for crimes that, by their very nature, do not threaten immediate death or bodily harm and thus would not have justified self-defense to begin with.

Killing a Cardassian who is actively trying to kill or enslave you isn't an evil act to most people. Executing a Cardassian who was captured alive while trying to kill or enslave is justifiable to a slightly smaller group of people, most likely. Executing a Cardassian for stealing a loaf of bread is getting pretty bad--I could plausibly see fewer people being okay with it than not. Executing a Cardassian for participating in a system of market economics that produces substantial poverty is probably well outside the Good end of the spectrum for most folks. Executing a Cardassian for being born a Cardassian should be pretty firmly Evil.

Your positions aren't analogous to self-defense on any level. Your least extreme positions, if we make a lot of assumptions that are the most favorable to your position, are akin to using killing to punish a crime where it would have been justified to use killing to stop that crime. For the most part, however, you seem to be arguing something much closer to my third or fourth examples--using death to punish "crimes" that most people would be unwilling to use lethal force to prevent.

If you don't like being compared to a brutal imaginary dictator, maybe you should stop advocating for brutal imaginary behavior similar to said dictator. You've even gone so far as to create a list of reasons for why people "forced" you to behave in this manner.

You make a good point. For somebody who demands such strict individual agency and personal accountability with regard to people either working for The Evil Government or who simply participate in The Evil System, the Weirdo sure likes to hold a lot of other folks responsible for the arguments he chooses to make in defense of positions that he came up with for himself on a forum that he voluntarily participates in.

I disagree very strongly with his positions on a lot of things, but I could at least respect somebody who takes those positions consistently and also holds himself to the same standards.

[The_Weirdo]

If you don't like being compared to a brutal imaginary dictator, maybe you should stop advocating for brutal imaginary behavior similar to said dictator. You've even gone so far as to create a list of reasons for why people "forced" you to behave in this manner.

Well, how else do you expect their victims to get justice? Besides, they are on the wrong side of history. That settles it.

Snip

It's quite simple: Cardassians invaded Bajor. So Cardassians are oppressors. So every Bajoran gets to kill every Cardassian until the occupation is over and the victims of the occupation are back from the dead. Because all oppressors deserve death. The wrong side of history is a bad place to be.

[Dion]

Considering that a double axe has differences from normal axes I'd imagine it's a dwarves double waraxe.

Normally I’d agree, but it seems that the dwarven double waraxe is only a pathfinder weapon.

Thog’s great axe was also double-bit. Maybe that can give us some clues.

[Schroeswald]

Nah. You see, if you are too nice about, "oh, they were just following orders", and so on and so forth, eventually, someone appears with the narrative that the dictatorship wasn't that bad and then someone with the narrative that it was good and so on. And the next thing you know, you're having to explain the basic, absolute truth of history to people as if it's up to debate. It's much better to call everyone that ever worked for a dictatorship an evil monster and treat them accordingly. They do, after all, owe us the lives of the dissidents they killed. "Never again" needs to have teeth.

In such a continent as Tarquin's.

Or, we can say "Guard Squadron X was in charge of guarding their ruler, they never had to kill anyone, the lack of doing Good doesn't deserve being called irredeemable and killed".

I should note that I'm not willing to defend the execution of anyone except the Vector Legion, and even then maybe not all of them, because of my moral and philosophical beliefs, so I'm not going to say the OoTS should round up only the really evil ones, I support jail time for just about all based on the severity of their crimes (presuming we overthrow the nations, which we have to do for this to work).

Well, how else do you expect their victims to get justice? Besides, they are on the wrong side of history. That settles it.



It's quite simple: Cardassians invaded Bajor. So Cardassians are oppressors. So every Bajoran gets to kill every Cardassian until the occupation is over and the victims of the occupation are back from the dead. Because all oppressors deserve death. The wrong side of history is a bad place to be.

{scrubbed} You know that jails exist right? {scrubbed}

[The_Weirdo]

Or, we can say "Guard Squadron X was in charge of guarding their ruler, they never had to kill anyone, the lack of doing Good doesn't deserve being called irredeemable and killed".

I should note that I'm not willing to defend the execution of anyone except the Vector Legion, and even then maybe not all of them, because of my moral and philosophical beliefs, so I'm not going to say the OoTS should round up only the really evil ones, I support jail time for just about all based on the severity of their crimes (presuming we overthrow the nations, which we have to do for this to work).

And then, thirty, forty years down the line, a charismatic buffoon that shouts about how Tarquin was right manages to get to power and we're having to argue the obvious again? No, I would much rather have the guards all killed.

[Keltest]

And then, thirty, forty years down the line, a charismatic buffoon that shouts about how Tarquin was right manages to get to power and we're having to argue the obvious again? No, I would much rather have the guards all killed.

Thus leading to the rise of a different charismatic buffoon shouting about how the people need to be protected from the Tarquinists, by any means necessary.

What youre actually saying here is that the only good dictators are the ones you agree with.

[The_Weirdo]

Thus leading to the rise of a different charismatic buffoon shouting about how the people need to be protected from the Tarquinists, by any means necessary.

What youre actually saying here is that the only good dictators are the ones you agree with.

Nope. Again, Bajor was no dictatorship.

But I do say that every Stormtrooper and everyone that pledges loyalty to the Empire, ever, is at fault for every death on Alderaan.

The world(s) must be made fair.

[Kantaki]

Well, how else do you expect their victims to get justice? Besides, they are on the wrong side of history. That settles it.



It's quite simple: Cardassians invaded Bajor. So Cardassians are oppressors. So every Bajoran gets to kill every Cardassian until the occupation is over and the victims of the occupation are back from the dead. Because all oppressors deserve death. The wrong side of history is a bad place to be.

So if the Cardies (have to) bring their families (or even if not if I get this right) their little kids would be legitimate targets?

If everyone thought like you we wouldn't have this discussion.
Because the last human would have died a long time ago.
Alone.

Also, regarding Tarquin's troops, doesn't it matter at all that he literally threatened their families?
I mean sure, a good chunk ended up evil anyway, but frankly?
Them following Tarquin isn't that different from Hilgya marrying Ivan, as far as free choice is concerned.

[Keltest]

Nope. Again, Bajor was no dictatorship.

But I do say that every Stormtrooper and everyone that pledges loyalty to the Empire, ever, is at fault for every death on Alderaan.

The world(s) must be made fair.

I don't care about unrelated examples. What you are saying, right here, right now, is that if you had the power, in this hypothetical world you would lead a bloody reign against anybody even tangentially related to the running of the previous government, as well as anybody who would try and stop you, and based on your previous comments even people who didn't try hard enough to stop the previous dictator. Regardless of what anybody else has done in similar circumstances, you are choosing to enact the same behavior that you are decrying. That makes you A: {scrubbed} and B: a legitimate target under your own rules.

[The_Weirdo]

So if the Cardies (have to) bring their families (or even if not if I get this right) their little kids would be legitimate targets?

If everyone thought like you we wouldn't have this discussion.
Because the last human would have died a long time ago.
Alone.

Also, regarding Tarquin's troops, doesn't it matter at all that he literally threatened their families?
I mean sure, a good chunk ended up evil anyway, but frankly?
Them following Tarquin isn't that different from Hilgya marrying Ivan, as far as free choice is concerned.

The moment the Cardassians oppressed the Bajorans, absolutely everything became the Cardassians' fault. What did they expect the Bajorans to do?

I don't care about unrelated examples. What you are saying, right here, right now, is that if you had the power, in this hypothetical world you would lead a bloody reign against anybody even tangentially related to the running of the previous government, as well as anybody who would try and stop you, and based on your previous comments even people who didn't try hard enough to stop the previous dictator. Regardless of what anybody else has done in similar circumstances, you are choosing to enact the same behavior that you are decrying. That makes you A: a hypocrite and B: a legitimate target under your own rules.

Oh, not necessarily "anybody who would try and stop me" or "people who didn't try to stop the previous dictator". But if he's a dictator, he's evil. And if someone follows a dictator, so are they. Besides, they owe the dead their lives. They NEED to pay it.

[MartianInvader]

Well, how else do you expect their victims to get justice? Besides, they are on the wrong side of history. That settles it.

It's quite simple: Cardassians invaded Bajor. So Cardassians are oppressors. So every Bajoran gets to kill every Cardassian until the occupation is over and the victims of the occupation are back from the dead. Because all oppressors deserve death. The wrong side of history is a bad place to be.

A more succinct term for this is "genocide". You are advocating genocide.

[Schroeswald]

Nope. Again, Bajor was no dictatorship.

But I do say that every Stormtrooper and everyone that pledges loyalty to the Empire, ever, is at fault for every death on Alderaan.

The world(s) must be made fair.

Bajor might not be a dictatorship, but it might be after your imaginary brutal dictator retakes over and kills much of the Bajorians, you see a cycle of violence has to be ended by forging peace, not just warring even harder.

{Scrubbed}

[Keltest]

Oh, not necessarily "anybody who would try and stop me" or "people who didn't try to stop the previous dictator". But if he's a dictator, he's evil. And if someone follows a dictator, so are they. Besides, they owe the dead their lives. They NEED to pay it.

That doesn't answer my charges. Youre engaging in the behavior you described as marking you as a legitimate target. That therefore makes you a legitimate target under your own system.

[The_Weirdo]

A more succinct term for this is "genocide". You are advocating genocide.

Of the Cardassians, by any Bajoran, for what Cardassians did to Bajor? Sure. Wouldn't you, if you were a Bajoran?

Snip

{Scrubbed}

[Kantaki]

The moment the Cardassians oppressed the Bajorans, absolutely everything became the Cardassians' fault. What did they expect the Bajorans to do?

Everything. Sure...
I just thank my lucky star the world doesn't follow your ideal.

[The_Weirdo]

Everything. Sure...
I just thank my lucky star the world doesn't follow your ideal.

Again: what did the Cardassians expect?

What do the oppressors expect? To be treated like they weren't oppressors?

[Xyril]

It's quite simple: Cardassians invaded Bajor. So Cardassians are oppressors. So every Bajoran gets to kill every Cardassian until the occupation is over and the victims of the occupation are back from the dead. Because all oppressors deserve death. The wrong side of history is a bad place to be.

Am I missing a sarcasm tag here? Or are you quite sincerely arguing the genocidal racist position?

I'm all for capital punishment and self-defense--even a certain level of taking the violence beyond the guy pointing the gun at you and taking out the guys who designed the guns, mined the raw materials, built the guns, and ordered him to shoot. I'm in favor of punishing aggressor nations, with the "nation" being an institution that can encompass more than the soldiers doing the invading and the guys giving the orders.

Genocide is a bit much for me, even in a fictional setting. I would say most people without a bad mustache probably agree with me slightly more than you on this one. In the specific case of Cardassia, we're not exactly talking about an open, democratic society--a lot of folks who you blame for the Cardassian government's actions really aren't guilty of much more than failing to use critical thinking and skepticism when looking at the government's propaganda, or beyond that, being unwilling to sacrifice themselves in a probably-futile resistance in hopes that the rebellion eventually spreads enough to topple the corrupt government. The idea that "Good" demands killing these people AND their children doesn't sit well with me.

At the very least you should let these people--and their descendants--live as servants to the Bajoran cause. It wouldn't be the best way to live, but it would still demonstrate more mercy than their evil ancestors would have shown. Plus, it would bring "justice" to the Cardassians as a race, just like you demanded, without the substantial economic costs of destroying that much potential labor all at once. It wouldn't bring back the dead, but their forced servitude would do something to pay restitution to Bajor, and who knows, in a few dozen generations, maybe the evil Cardassians will figure out a way to earn their freedom? Plus, it solves the problem of any exiled Cardassians out there who may have disagreed with the Cardassian government, but would nonetheless want revenge for their species: They also get enslaved as quickly as you can find them, because they're already guilty by association!

Hrm, would you look at that? I just substantially dialed back your position, and we arrived institutionalized race-based slavery. Maybe if we reframed it as "non-consensual genetic labor-based war-restitution in perpetuity?"

Oh, this inspires a solution to the Hilgya dilemma as well! All we have to do is go back along her family tree far enough to find somebody who was arguably--in your words--"on the wrong side of history." Once we establish that she--like the Cardassians, was born deserving death by association, then the whole "crossbow marriage" thing isn't an act of coercion: It's an act of mercy, where Hilgya is granted an undeserved opportunity to not be executed for her ancestors' crimes by voluntarily accepting a much less terrible fate.

[MartianInvader]

Of the Cardassians, by any Bajoran, for what Cardassians did to Bajor? Sure. Wouldn't you, if you were a Bajoran?

No, I would not. In fact, there are episodes of DS9 where various Bajorans come to the conclusion that they, also, would not. It's, like, a major theme of the first couple seasons.

Let me see if I understand your philosophy correctly. Some decades ago, several members of my family were killed, by humans. Do I therefore have the moral right to kill all humans?

[The_Weirdo]

No, I would not. In fact, there are episodes of DS9 where various Bajorans come to the conclusion that they, also, would not. It's, like, a major theme of the first couple seasons.

Let me see if I understand your philosophy correctly. Some decades ago, several members of my family were killed, by humans. Do I therefore have the moral right to kill all humans?

Not the same. Cardassians are an organized, militaristic nation with a hierarchy.

[Keltest]

Not the same. Cardassians are an organized, militaristic nation with a hierarchy.

Which you have chosen to ignore in your declaration that all of them are equally responsible for everything the nation does.

[Kantaki]

Again: what did the Cardassians expect?

What do the oppressors expect? To be treated like they weren't oppressors?

By your phrasing, should the Bajorans decide to go to war against the Federation to prevent another occupation that war would be on Cardassia.
That logic is ridiculous.

The Cardassians are to blame for their crimes- individually not as a collective. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, I'm generally opposed to massmurder for vengeance*.
For personal reasons.

*And in general, but that's beside the point.

[flat_footed]

The Fullmetal Mod: Locked for review.

[Pirate ninja]

The Modly Roger: A review of the thread has been carried out and moderation has occurred. The thread has now been re-opened Please keep the thread free of any reference to real life politics, or it may be closed again.

[Ruck]

He was answering me as regards to my views on how a theoretical society should work...

No, I'm saying that the moral view you expressed of "Do whatever you want as long as it's not a crime" is Lawful Neutral.

[The_Weirdo]

No, I'm saying that the moral view you expressed of "Do whatever you want as long as it's not a crime" is Lawful Neutral.

Eh. Guess you're right. I apologize to anyone for anything, by the way. I'm in a fairly lousy mood.