OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

I'm guessing the standards for "what they could have done that could be considered honorable when they died" are lower for infants, but I imagine they still have to DO something, and it's really hard for babies to understand that kind of thing let alone act on it.

"This baby died with a dagger in their hand and poked the person who killed them, so...Valhalla?"

[The MunchKING]

"This baby died with a dagger in their hand and poked the person who killed them, so...Valhalla?"

I like to think Thor would try that.

Still probably best not to die of any baby diseases though.

Fortunately Dwarves get that +2 Con. It gotta help a lot with keeping down the Infant Mortality rate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As long as the baby is eating, sleeping, growing and filling diapers, they are doing their duty as a baby. Therefore, their death would be honorable by default.

Besides, I really can't see Hel trying to set up an eternal daycare.

[Keltest]

As long as the baby is eating, sleeping, growing and filling diapers, they are doing their duty as a baby. Therefore, their death would be honorable by default.

Besides, I really can't see Hel trying to set up an eternal daycare.

Pretty much my thought as well. Every waking moment is a struggle for survival for an infant. Kudzu cant even walk on his own (probably) so the standards for what counts as an honorable fight for him are pretty low.

Also, Hel is almost certainly not interested in infant spirits. No energy, no value as a slave, they whine all the time and don't understand her when she yells at them to be quiet... why would she want that?

[Rogar Demonblud]

She won't even get paid for it.



(((continuing the angsty teenager motif)))

[The_Weirdo]

Pretty much my thought as well. Every waking moment is a struggle for survival for an infant. Kudzu cant even walk on his own (probably) so the standards for what counts as an honorable fight for him are pretty low.

Also, Hel is almost certainly not interested in infant spirits. No energy, no value as a slave, they whine all the time and don't understand her when she yells at them to be quiet... why would she want that?

Well, off the top of my head, she's an insanely evil and petty person...

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right, I really do, but we aren't dealing with an ideal situation here.

[Keltest]

Well, off the top of my head, she's an insanely evil and petty person...

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right, I really do, but we aren't dealing with an ideal situation here.

Let me put it this way. She would have to go out of her way to get it, and there are actively reasons she doesn't want it.

[Dion]

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right, I really do

https://wondermark.com/c1476/

There’s nothing preventing fiction from not making sense. It’s just people making stuff up.

[The_Weirdo]

Let me put it this way. She would have to go out of her way to get it, and there are actively reasons she doesn't want it.

You're making a good point. Makes me feel optimistic.

https://wondermark.com/c1476/

There’s nothing preventing fiction from not making sense. It’s just people making stuff up.

There are some bars that need to be met...

[Dion]

There are some bars that need to be met...

A bear, a rooster, and a snake walk into a bar.

“I’m so happy to have met you!”, they say.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Irrelevant aside, but I just noticed when Dion posted earlier that his name is an anagram for Odin.

Do you have a couple of pet ravens?

[Squire Doodad]

https://wondermark.com/c1476/

There’s nothing preventing fiction from not making sense. It’s just people making stuff up.

The "assume everyone, ever, is an idiot, thus cleaning up 20% of plot holes" does explain the entirety of the Megaman Battle Network series. And Metal Gear Solid. And all of those other games you liked to play when you were kids.

As long as the baby is eating, sleeping, growing and filling diapers, they are doing their duty as a baby. Therefore, their death would be honorable by default.

Besides, I really can't see Hel trying to set up an eternal daycare.

Short term soul power, not efficient, also she doesn't seem to enjoy inflicting pain for the sake of the pain. She does it for a purpose, though aforementioned purpose is bound to her ever-shifting whims.

[Dion]

The "assume everyone, ever, is an idiot, thus cleaning up 20% of plot holes"...

To be fair, I wasn’t trying to imply that The Giant is an idiot, and I apologize if I offended anyone who took it that way.

But D&D cosmology never made a bit of sense, and I don’t think The Giant’s goal was ever to untangle that snarl.

What I was trying to say was “have fun thinking about this as a thought exercise, but if you find yourself in actual distress worrying about the fate of dwarven babies, try to let it go...”

[Squire Doodad]

To be fair, I wasn’t trying to imply that The Giant is an idiot, and I apologize if I offended anyone who took it that way.

But D&D cosmology never made a bit of sense, and I don’t think it was The Giant’s goal was ever to untangle that snarl.

What I was trying to say was “have fun thinking about this as a thought exercise, but if you find yourself in actual distress worrying about the fate of dwarven babies, try to let it go...”

No, I meant in the link. I mean "assume everyone in the works is an idiot", not the creators.

[Dion]

No, I meant in the link. I mean "assume everyone in the works is an idiot", not the creators.

Oh yeah, that does help.

It helps in real life too. Have you ever asked yourself a question like, “Why does this international airport in one of the richest cities in the world look like a rundown municipal shopping mall?” Because everyone is an idiots.

[Peelee]

But D&D cosmology never made a bit of sense, and I don’t think The Giant’s goal was ever to untangle that snarl.

I'm tempted to agree.

I am not going to spend time researching the history of D&D's treatment of dead souls. If you want to learn more about it, you're on your own. It's all inconsistent anyway, so even if you find a book that contradicts what I said, that doesn't mean there's not another one out there that agrees with me. And frankly, even if I'm remembering wrong and not a single book corroborates what I'm saying, so what? How does it matter to the story at all?

[Ruck]

Oh yeah, that does help.

It helps in real life too. Have you ever asked yourself a question like, “Why does this international airport in one of the richest cities in the world look like a rundown municipal shopping mall?” Because everyone is an idiots.

I'm more concerned as to why my international airport looks so much like a frightening death cult operates out of a secret nuclear blast-proof shelter in the basement.

[Emanick]

This is Tolkien's actual headstone. Three guesses who his actual self-insert is, and the first don't count.

Grey Wolf

My guess is Faramir.

As far as any character is 'like me' it is
Faramir – except that I lack what all my characters possess (let the psychoanalysts note!) Courage.

He even gave Faramir the same recurring dream that he had throughout his life (a towering wave destroying Atlantis Númenor.

The Beren and Lúthien romance was certainly inspired by his own love for his wife Edith. But Beren himself bears no special resemblance to Tolkien himself, as far as I can tell. Certainly he lacks the detailed worldview that Faramir has, which is basically copied-and-pasted from Tolkien's own preferences.

[Dion]

This is Tolkien's actual headstone

Wow, that’s really sweet.

[hroþila]

You're all wrong. The real Tolkien self-insert is Professor John Jethro Rashbold from The Notion Club Papers.

[KorvinStarmast]

My guess is Faramir.

Yes, that's Toliken on his best days as an insert.

Although in a different story, Niggle in Tree and Leaf was an obvilous self insert.

The Beren and Luthien love story/tombstone is IMO a bit deeper. For one thing, it symbolizes their eternal love. But to a different extent, that's a fair candidate for the Tolkien self insert that reflects his deep feelings about what passing through the shadow does and how it influences people.

For Tolkien, the parallel for Beren's journey before he met Luthien was World War I, Western Front.

And FWIW, it is my belief that Sam Gamgee is a tribute to every private soldier who Tolkien met on the Western Front. One of the things that Peter Jackson got right, in the films, was "the stubborn courage of the common man" as reflected in Sam.

[danielxcutter]

Short term soul power, not efficient, also she doesn't seem to enjoy inflicting pain for the sake of the pain. She does it for a purpose, though aforementioned purpose is bound to her ever-shifting whims.

Yeah, it's easy to overlook the fact that being Evil does not mean Evil in the same ways. That's what sets Loki apart from Fenrir, or say, Xykon.

[Worldsong]

I'll join the faction of people thinking Hel doesn't have much interest in keeping the souls of dwarven infants.

If only because she got tired of Thor running into her domain and yelling about how each and every infant died honourably as they fought for survival in such challenging conditions (namely, being an infant) and just started handing the little things to him so he'd shut up.

[Squire Doodad]

You're all wrong. The real Tolkien self-insert is Professor John Jethro Rashbold from The Notion Club Papers.

It's actually Beorn, not sure how everyone misses that.

[Keltest]

It's actually Beorn, not sure how everyone misses that.

Tolkien was, of course, well known for transforming into a bear and prowling around at night.

[woweedd]

I'll join the faction of people thinking Hel doesn't have much interest in keeping the souls of dwarven infants.

If only because she got tired of Thor running into her domain and yelling about how each and every infant died honourably as they fought for survival in such challenging conditions (namely, being an infant) and just started handing the little things to him so he'd shut up.

Obligatory SMBC link.
(Caution: Somewhat NSFW).

[Peelee]

Tolkien was, of course, well known for transforming into a bear and prowling around at night.

That was one of his best recurring pranks at Oxford. He inherited this playful streak from his parents, who themselves began pranking him immediately after he was born by naming him Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien.

[D.One]

That was one of his best recurring pranks at Oxford. He inherited this playful streak from his parents, who themselves began pranking him immediately after he was born by naming him Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien.

He took that as tolkien of their comedy talent...

[Skull the Troll]

Just saying that, this time, it's not at all unusual a decision.

What stops her from doing the plane shift when she sees (if) the battle is lost? Why is that worse than going off somewhere and hoping that she'll get enough warning to cast plane shift? I agree with you that if the world is getting eaten by the snarl that a plane shift is worth trying, even though we as the readers know it will not work. She doesn't know that. What I'm saying is that her not even trying to save the world is what makes her evil. I hope that if it was all creation, vs my infant son (I have had 2) I'd pick the world, at least until there was no hope. Never minding everything else shes done, her leaving the fight here is an unrevokably evil act. My hope is that Sigdi has taken steps to make sure she cant go pick up Kudzu without the others.

[Skull the Troll]

Pretty much my thought as well. Every waking moment is a struggle for survival for an infant. Kudzu cant even walk on his own (probably) so the standards for what counts as an honorable fight for him are pretty low.

Also, Hel is almost certainly not interested in infant spirits. No energy, no value as a slave, they whine all the time and don't understand her when she yells at them to be quiet... why would she want that?

They are souls, and souls are power. Its unpleasant to think about but I think she probably just puts them somewhere and leaves them to squirm. It is Hel after all. I'd like to think that the people saying that the baby fighting to grow probably counts though. If Alcoholism, or attacking a tree, is an honorable death, struggling out of a dirty diaper probably is too.