Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

[Douglas]

which I don’t see why we wouldn’t since we count clank-Lucrezia as Lucrezia

Mostly because we're taking the characters' word for it, but also because there's a significant difference in how their origins are described.

Everyone, including Lucrezia herself, considers every copy of her to actually be Lucrezia. Lucrezia even considers copies of herself to be other parts of herself rather than separate entities, and has internalized that concept to the point that each copy is willing to risk herself, or even kill herself if necessary, to help her other copies.

Only one person ever knew that Anevka's clank was not being piloted by a still-living organic Anevka, and that was Tarvek. As the only person with that knowledge, and as the creator of the clank, he is in a uniquely authoritative position on the subject, and he believes that the clank is not Anevka.

Every copy of Lucrezia was intentionally made by transferring or copying her mind. Clank-Anevka started as a remote controlled puppet, and became an independent being through gradual development over time. Her personality was undoubtedly very similar to Anevka's, but I don't think that happened through an explicit copying mechanism. It sounded to me more like learning from and being shaped by the experiences of the puppeted actions.

[Fyraltari]

Mostly because we're taking the characters' word for it, but also because there's a significant difference in how their origins are described.

Everyone, including Lucrezia herself, considers every copy of her to actually be Lucrezia. Lucrezia even considers copies of herself to be other parts of herself rather than separate entities, and has internalized that concept to the point that each copy is willing to risk herself, or even kill herself if necessary, to help her other copies.

Only one person ever knew that Anevka's clank was not being piloted by a still-living organic Anevka, and that was Tarvek. As the only person with that knowledge, and as the creator of the clank, he is in a uniquely authoritative position on the subject, and he believes that the clank is not Anevka.

Every copy of Lucrezia was intentionally made by transferring or copying her mind. Clank-Anevka started as a remote controlled puppet, and became an independent being through gradual development over time. Her personality was undoubtedly very similar to Anevka's, but I don't think that happened through an explicit copying mechanism. It sounded to me more like learning from and being shaped by the experiences of the puppeted actions.

So?

The clank that has the same memories and personality as Anevka is not the same as Anevka because the copying process wasn’t the same? Why would that matter? Also bear in mind that Tarvek was killing her at the time, I think he was rationalizing.

[factotum]

Only one person ever knew that Anevka's clank was not being piloted by a still-living organic Anevka, and that was Tarvek.

Even the clank itself was not aware of the distinction--it thought it was still being puppeted by Anevka, even though the cables between itself and the casket containing her had been severed.

[Vinyadan]

I think that there is a distinction between the Other and Clankevka. We don't really know what the Other is.

Yes, sure, it's a conscious mind, that of Lucrezia. But where was it stored? Was it in the Machine in Sturmhalten? Or was it in a different dimension? And is that really Lucrezia, anyway? Or is it Lucrezia fused with someone else? The thing is, is there a qualitative difference with other minds? Albia says that Lucrezia's mind is unusual when she kills the queens.

Second, more importantly, the clank driven by Annevka was more than a puppet, as Tarvek says. But what was it, then? Hard to tell, since he never explains it. Maybe it contained an AI that worked as a crutch for Annevka's declining faculties, and was not self conscious. Having direct access to Annevka's memories, she could have made a copy into her own system, used them exclusively, and later ended up identifying into them. We don't really know if their minds ever were identical, however. Only their memories.
The Other, instead, is installed on a clean slate.

Third, the most important of all: the Other is a problem of survival, while Annevka is just a matter of identity. It's the same if the various Others are actually different people or not really the Other, because they are still all bad, powerful, and bent on world domination. So they all must be destroyed/contained/what have you.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To muddy the waters further, we don't know that the clank has more than a fraction of Anevka's memories. There's a reason for the trope where you trip up a doppelganger with trivia.

[Willie the Duck]

It's entirely possible that "Anevka" is the head that was removed, and now we simply have a clank body which has command backdoors built into it that respond to, "Anevka, _______."

[Fyraltari]

It's entirely possible that "Anevka" is the head that was removed, and now we simply have a clank body which has command backdoors built into it that respond to, "Anevka, _______."

Was that in question?

[Grim Portent]

Personally I'd say that even if the clank isn't a direct copy of the original Anevka it is in most, if not all, the ways that matter, an Anevka in itself. By all indications it was self aware, had it's own desires, it's own feelings and it's own identity as a person to the point it could have an identity crisis upon being told the original had died.

[geoduck]

Having a powerful metal body and knowing she could electrocute people at a touch probably didn't do much to encourage the better angels of her nature.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since when do Sparks and their families have better angels in their nature?

[tonberrian]

It's a matter of degree. One shoulder devil says to kill them, kill them all! while the other says to save some for experimentation.

[Agi Hammerthief]

while the sparky boys are busy rebuilting the extractor engine, it would be really smart to do away with the need to but the subjects head under a hood.
Just make it point and shoot thing.

[HandofShadows]

Spoiler

Show

So Lu actually DID try to learn to fight at some point. But it doesn't look like her training was that good. I bet her attitude "I should WIN!" is at least part of the problem.

[Traab]

There are multiple possibilities here. This could be an example of, "Nobody dares strike the king so he wins all spars and thinks he is an invincible warrior god until he faces an enemy" or it could be that lu is drawing off what she knows about zeetha while forgetting she has had two YEARS to train and get even better with a jaeger general boyfriend likely helping out whenever possible. A third option is violetta is poisoning lugatha very carefully. Slowing reaction times until she can barely handle this fight.

[geoduck]

Another option- LuAgatha is about to keel over from Tweedle-poisoning.

[Alias]

Whichever it is, I hope it resolves soon. The Lucrezia in Agatha plot has become tiresome.

[Rodin]

There are multiple possibilities here. This could be an example of, "Nobody dares strike the king so he wins all spars and thinks he is an invincible warrior god until he faces an enemy" or it could be that lu is drawing off what she knows about zeetha while forgetting she has had two YEARS to train and get even better with a jaeger general boyfriend likely helping out whenever possible. A third option is violetta is poisoning lugatha very carefully. Slowing reaction times until she can barely handle this fight.

Another possibilty is that we've never seen Lucrezia fight with swords before. She's also the first non-Skifandrian that we know went there - she had to know where it was to dump the Baron there in the first place.

The way I read this is that Lucrezia spent some time in Skifander and learned their fighting style. She thinks she's pretty good, but Zeetha was the daughter of the queen and one of the best at fighting with those swords. Unlike other times we've seen Zeetha get beaten, she isn't facing someone superhuman, and she has her swords. She knows the fighting style and she knows Agatha's physical capabilities. And as noted, she's spent the last couple years training with Higgs.

[HandofShadows]

And as noted, she's spent the last couple years training with Higgs.

You call that "training"?

While Lu does know of Skiflander, we don't know how much time she spent there. Or when she got her work in with the sword.

[DavidSh]

It's also plausible that training only carries over partially from body to body. Agatha has a different arrangement of muscle, bone, and fat from the original Lucrezia. Some maneuvers won't work the same way. But you think Lucrezia would be aware of this.

[Rodin]

It's also plausible that training only carries over partially from body to body. Agatha has a different arrangement of muscle, bone, and fat from the original Lucrezia. Some maneuvers won't work the same way. But you think Lucrezia would be aware of this.

Maybe she just doesn't know how to do Kaio-ken.

[Vinyadan]

We also don't know in which era she even trained. Maybe it was 2300 years ago, and now she finds out that the old techniques have been surpassed.

Or maybe she's being thrown off by the lack of muscle memory.

Or maybe Albia can interact with the swords.

I get the feeling that this is the second time in a row that the comic has to explain a confusing situation, first "how is Lugatha free?", and then "why is Lu so good with swords?".

[Fyraltari]

Her wording (calling Zeetha a child, especially) seems to imply she's had more time to train with the swords than a regular human lifespan, though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm suddenly reminded of Tom Hiddleston's expression when Loki tried to dominate Stark in the first Avengers movie. "This usually works."

[factotum]

Her wording (calling Zeetha a child, especially) seems to imply she's had more time to train with the swords than a regular human lifespan, though.

Not necessarily? Zeetha is only, what, early 20s? Even without any time travel shenanigans Lucrezia would be considerably older than that, and it's entirely in keeping for someone in their high 40s/50s to refer to someone in their early 20s as a "child".

[Rodin]

Not necessarily? Zeetha is only, what, early 20s? Even without any time travel shenanigans Lucrezia would be considerably older than that, and it's entirely in keeping for someone in their high 40s/50s to refer to someone in their early 20s as a "child".

It's easy to forget that Lucrezia is the same generation as Baron Wulfenbach. We only see her either in flashbacks or embodied in someone young. It doesn't help that Klaus has never looked young.

[halfeye]

It's easy to forget that Lucrezia is the same generation as Baron Wulfenbach.

That was before she went travelling thousands of years into the past. "The other" is millenia old.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So "It's not the years, it's the eons"?

[geoduck]

That was before she went travelling thousands of years into the past. "The other" is millenia old.

She's briefly popped up in various places all over history, but that doesn't automatically mean she's thousands of years old.

[Narkis]

She's briefly popped up in various places all over history, but that doesn't automatically mean she's thousands of years old.

She's spent centuries imprisoned by Van Rijn, so she's at least hundred of years old.

[Traab]

She's spent centuries imprisoned by Van Rijn, so she's at least hundred of years old.

Or at least one aspect of her was. Lady is split so much its going to take one hell of an exposition dump to wrap it all together. Keep in mind we have at LEAST three aspects of her in present time. Lugatha, clankcrezia, and zolcrezia. We have no idea if "the muse of time" is another aspect entirely, or one of the current ones going through a time loop of some sort. We dont know if they somehow share memories, need periodic info dumps when they bump into each other, etc. We have so little information on how any of this is happening.