Heat Metal on a Crossbow Bolt?

[Damon_Tor]

So if I shoot a monster with a crossbow bolt then cast Heat Metal on the bolt lodged in it, would you rule that this is a viable way to apply Heat Metal to a creature that isn't wearing armor? What sort of action would you require for the creature to remove the bolt? What if the creature can't reach the bolt at all (or has no hands to remove it with)?

Second, if three different spellcasters each cast Heat Metal on a different crossbow bolt lodged in a creature, will the creature take damage from all three spells assuming each caster continues to use their bonus actions to repeat the damage? This seems like a way around the "a creature cannot be effected by the same spell multiple times" rule: the creature isn't the target, the bolts are.

Third, consider the possibility that the spells are cast by Tiny Servants using an artificer's Spell Storage Item, effectively making this a one-man tactic, albeit high level.

[ImproperJustice]

The answers to most of the above will be answered by your GM.

Then you also need to decide what kind of game it is that you guys are playing.

[Tanarii]

No, because there is no way to determine that a bolt is lodged in a creature other than DM Fiat. Doing HP damage doesn't make it so, because hit points aren't meat.

Also if DM fiat ruled that a crossbow bolt is actually stuck in a creature for any reason, still No, because you can't see the bolt head after it is lodged in a creature, and you must be able to see the target. You could cast it before but you risk blowing a spell slot on the attack missing, plus the DM fiat ruling being that the attack didn't lodge in the creature even though it did hp damage.

[Damon_Tor]

The answers to most of the above will be answered by your GM.

Of course; assume you are the DM and one of your players is doing this.

[stoutstien]

Of course; assume you are the DM and one of your players is doing this.

From the hip.

Yes to heat metal on one bolt. Npc could easily remove it without much effort. Wrapping a target in a chain or using a hunter trap is a better idea.

No to multi casting on one Target. Period. Goes against a core game principal of allowing same spells to stack.

Tiny servant I would allow but only one of them.

[Damon_Tor]

No, because there is no way to determine that a bolt is lodged in a creature other than DM Fiat. Doing HP damage doesn't make it so, because hit points aren't meat.

So how would you adjudicate this? If you are a DM and your player casts Heat Metal on a Crossbow Bolt and shoots it at a monster and hits, what do you do?

[Tanarii]

So how would you adjudicate this? If you are a DM and your player casts Heat Metal on a Crossbow Bolt and shoots it at a monster and hits, what do you do?

Nothing. They wasted the spell.

Edit: Also, I'd certainly object to the process as a player when the DM had a enemy caster shoot a heat metal crossbow Bolt at me, do 3 pts of damage to my 100 hp character, then tell me the bolt is lodged and I was taking X per round.

If necessary I'd point it out to a player complaining to me, what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is one of those situations where how likely your DM is to rule that a bolt could be stuck in you this way is how they rule HP.
In the rules, your physical wellbeing is only one aspect of many involved in HP, that crossbow dealing 8 damage to you can be ruled as anything from "shook your resolve with how close it came to taking your eye despite missing" to "The bolt lodges squarely in your thigh".

Like Tanarii says, there's no reason for it to be assumed that the bolt is lodged inside to make this strategy work and I as a player would probably take issue with the DM making such a claim against my character just to make this combo function. This also assumes that your crossbow bolts are entirely made of metal, since you need to see the metal object you're targeting.

[Imbalance]

Is there RAW about recovering ammunition? When I asked, the DM allowed it based on a die roll (ie. approximate how many ranged attacks were successful, roll the next smallest die, result is how many are retrieved along with loot).

I ask in case it serves as a basis to say that an average number of bolts that land actually stick in the target to be recovered, then to figure if any are actually visible to the caster. You might give the caster a perception check with disadvantage to locate the target or even give the creature advantage on the con save to remove the bolt.

On the other hand, casting Heat Metal before the bolt is fired seems more workable mechanically. Nobody takes damage from it on the round that it is cast, and if the crossbow attack misses it's probably a complete waste. But as long as the caster can see it and maintain concentration, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I imagine this being a great way to boil a gelatinous cube from the inside out, though I can also imagine someone coming along to tell me why I'm wrong.

Whether it succeeds or not, if the players definitely want to attempt this tactic, assure them that it will be used against them later.

[Aett_Thorn]

Is there RAW about recovering ammunition? When I asked, the DM allowed it based on a die roll (ie. approximate how many ranged attacks were successful, roll the next smallest die, result is how many are retrieved along with loot).

I ask in case it serves as a basis to say that an average number of bolts that land actually stick in the target to be recovered, then to figure if any are actually visible to the caster. You might give the caster a perception check with disadvantage to locate the target or even give the creature advantage on the con save to remove the bolt.

On the other hand, casting Heat Metal before the bolt is fired seems more workable mechanically. Nobody takes damage from it on the round that it is cast, and if the crossbow attack misses it's probably a complete waste. But as long as the caster can see it and maintain concentration, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I imagine this being a great way to boil a gelatinous cube from the inside out, though I can also imagine someone coming along to tell me why I'm wrong.

Whether it succeeds or not, if the players definitely want to attempt this tactic, assure them that it will be used against them later.

RAW on recovering ammo is that you get half back. Remember that even if you hit the target, that doesn't mean you don't break the bolk when you try to take it out. Many medieval bolts were designed such that trying to take them out was both painful and dangerous.

[Damon_Tor]

This is one of those situations where how likely your DM is to rule that a bolt could be stuck in you this way is how they rule HP.
In the rules, your physical wellbeing is only one aspect of many involved in HP, that crossbow dealing 8 damage to you can be ruled as anything from "shook your resolve with how close it came to taking your eye despite missing" to "The bolt lodges squarely in your thigh".

How do those DMs handle poisoned arrows?

[JackPhoenix]

How do those DMs handle poisoned arrows?

The same way as normal arrow. You been extra lucky/more shaken while avoiding more serious threat. Or you may not have been fast enough and still recieved some surface wound, if the arrow has effect other than pure damage.

[Damon_Tor]

Nothing. They wasted the spell.

Edit: Also, I'd certainly object to the process as a player when the DM had a enemy caster shoot a heat metal crossbow Bolt at me, do 3 pts of damage to my 100 hp character, then tell me the bolt is lodged and I was taking X per round.

If necessary I'd point it out to a player complaining to me, what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

Are you implying that NPCs don't already use Heat Metal on PCs? And I'll note that normally it comes in with no attack roll and no save, you just start taking damage and there's nothing you can do about it because there's no good way to doff armor in combat. But as a player you would complain to your DM for taking this spell, making it take two actions instead of one, and requiring a hit vs AC? I'm legitimately confused to what possible objection you would have here.

I would note that there are game mechanics that directly correlate dealing damage to "hitting meat". Poison is the one that springs to mind: someone dips their arrow in poison and deals 3 points of damage to your 100 hp PC, that poison will be effecting you as if it's in you. There's no good way to explain that away if you like to fluff non-fatal HP damage as "near misses".

There's plenty here I agree with: there's not currently a way to determine if a projectile embeds itself in a target and if so, how far. Even assuming HP = Meat, a bolt might just nick someone and still "hit" or on the opposite end of the spectrum, it might go all the way through and come out the other side. I'm looking for a fair way to simulate this using dice.

I also agree it isn't fair to make the embedded arrow unremovable. It's why I'm looking for opinions on how that should be done I figure an item interaction (free 1/turn, needs an action beyond that) paired with a medicine DC equal to the damage dealt by the initial attack would be simple and fair. So if the arrow lands and deals just 5 points of damage, it should just be able to pop it out no problem. But if the attack was a sharpshooter hit with hunters mark that did 17 points of damage, well that's in there pretty deep.

[Aimeryan]

Are you implying that NPCs don't already use Heat Metal on PCs? And I'll note that normally it comes in with no attack roll and no save, you just start taking damage and there's nothing you can do about it because there's no good way to doff armor in combat. But as a player you would complain to your DM for taking this spell, making it take two actions instead of one, and requiring a hit vs AC? I'm legitimately confused to what possible objection you would have here.

I would note that there are game mechanics that directly correlate dealing damage to "hitting meat". Poison is the one that springs to mind: someone dips their arrow in poison and deals 3 points of damage to your 100 hp PC, that poison will be effecting you as if it's in you. There's no good way to explain that away if you like to fluff non-fatal HP damage as "near misses".

There's plenty here I agree with: there's not currently a way to determine if a projectile embeds itself in a target and if so, how far. Even assuming HP = Meat, a bolt might just nick someone and still "hit" or on the opposite end of the spectrum, it might go all the way through and come out the other side. I'm looking for a fair way to simulate this using dice.

I also agree it isn't fair to make the embedded arrow unremovable. It's why I'm looking for opinions on how that should be done I figure an item interaction (free 1/turn, needs an action beyond that) paired with a medicine DC equal to the damage dealt by the initial attack would be simple and fair. So if the arrow lands and deals just 5 points of damage, it should just be able to pop it out no problem. But if the attack was a sharpshooter hit with hunters mark that did 17 points of damage, well that's in there pretty deep.

I agree with this.

As for the depth, perhaps a free item interaction with a Strength DC check equal to the damage the bolt dealt? If unsuccessful, the check is reduced next time by the amount achieved previously (cumulative).

[Vogie]

I'd rule you can do that after it hits. I mean, you could before, but if that arrow misses it's gone.

The Swords Bard in my WDH game purposefully bought our Rogue extra daggers and metal blowdarts specifically so they could pull this maneuver. I give the targets a low DC Strength or Dexterity check to take it out unless it's in the target's back (we use a flanking variant based on facing), where the DC is higher.

[Misterwhisper]

Not only is it a hard no, but also just flimsy powergaming.

It is the same level of powergaming as sneaking up and putting a helmet on a mage and then claiming they can’t cast because they are not proficient.

[Damon_Tor]

Not only is it a hard no, but also just flimsy powergaming.

It is the same level of powergaming as sneaking up and putting a helmet on a mage and then claiming they can’t cast because they are not proficient.

I don't get it. The spell works perfectly on anything with metal armor. No attack roll, no save, one action. So making it take two actions and an attack roll to work on other targets is powergaming?

[BarneyBent]

I think it’s creative and worth finding a way to make it work without being abusable.

If the spell is cast before firing the bolt, I’d say is does an extra 2d8 on a hit. I’d then roll a d20 to see if the bolt is lodged, based on a combination of size and fleshiness. If the spell is cast after firing the bolt, you’d have to check if the bolt was lodged AND visible to cast the spell, raising the DC for the D20 roll but potentially avoiding wasting the spell on a bolt that misses.

For example, tiny creatures are much more likely to have a bolt pass straight through than gargantuan creatures, who are much more likely to have the bolt stick. Skeletons are much more likely to have the bolt pass through than zombies.

Off the top of my head I’m thinking something like three categories of fleshiness (no flesh, some flesh, super fleshy), and the standard size categories. The size categories start with an 18 to lodge in a Tiny creature of moderate fleshiness, the DC going down by 3 as the size category goes up. Similarly, the DC goes up by 3 as fleshiness decreases, and down by 3 as fleshiness increases.

It’s a straight D20 roll done by the DM, pure luck related. It’s impossible to lodge in a Tiny skeleton as the DC is 21. A tiny, super fat rat however might have a DC of just 15, so you’ll lodge 25% of the time.

A Tarrasque is gargantuan and super fleshy (note that external armor is already accounted for by AC so this is fleshiness on a hit, I.e assuming armor has been pierced) and would have a DC of just 1 - i.e. it’s impossible for the bolt not to become lodged.

This is just an example and you could tweak it a bit - maybe start with 20 for tiny skeletal things and reduce by 2 instead of three with each factor, or 2 for size but 4 for fleshiness. But it would give a rough probability that each arrow/bolt would lodge.

This would have usefulness well beyond heat metal too. Casting Darkness on an arrow-tip, for example.

[Tanarii]

Are you implying that NPCs don't already use Heat Metal on PCs? And I'll note that normally it comes in with no attack roll and no save, you just start taking damage and there's nothing you can do about it because there's no good way to doff armor in combat. But as a player you would complain to your DM for taking this spell, making it take two actions instead of one, and requiring a hit vs AC? I'm legitimately confused to what possible objection you would have here.

I assume we were talking about a way to get the effect of "wearing metal armor" on a creature that's not wearing metal armor. Otherwise this is a pointless exercise.

I would note that there are game mechanics that directly correlate dealing damage to "hitting meat". Poison is the one that springs to mind: someone dips their arrow in poison and deals 3 points of damage to your 100 hp PC, that poison will be effecting you as if it's in you. There's no good way to explain that away if you like to fluff non-fatal HP damage as "near misses".

I'm not a fan of near misses personally, but that's a far cry from a crossbow bolt sticking in something.

There's plenty here I agree with: there's not currently a way to determine if a projectile embeds itself in a target and if so, how far. Even assuming HP = Meat, a bolt might just nick someone and still "hit" or on the opposite end of the spectrum, it might go all the way through and come out the other side. I'm looking for a fair way to simulate this using dice.

I also agree it isn't fair to make the embedded arrow unremovable. It's why I'm looking for opinions on how that should be done I figure an item interaction (free 1/turn, needs an action beyond that) paired with a medicine DC equal to the damage dealt by the initial attack would be simple and fair. So if the arrow lands and deals just 5 points of damage, it should just be able to pop it out no problem. But if the attack was a sharpshooter hit with hunters mark that did 17 points of damage, well that's in there pretty deep.

okay, let's make some assumptions and see how it works out.

Assumption 1: First, you as the DM have to rule it's a creature that can take a hit from a crossbow bolt that might stick into it and stay there, without it being close to immediately fatal. That probably means a Large creature, with either a significant number of hit points coming from a high constitution, or is pretty heavily armored. Dragons especially come to mind as a target players might want to try this kind of thing on.

Next, the spell would have to be cast on the bolt in advance, so it can be seen.

Now let's pick some numbers for a chance of the bolt sticking. How about either/or the attack is a critical hit, or the first damage die is an 8+. That'd be a 5% chance of a crit without advantage or a 9.75% of a critical with advantage, and failing that a 12.5% of 8 damage for a light crossbow or 30% for 8+ with a heavy.

Without advantage: 17% with a light crossbow and 33.5% with a heavy.

With advantage: 21% with a light crossbow and a whopping 37% with a heavy crossbow.

Would that feel balanced to you?

[stoutstien]

Not only is it a hard no, but also just flimsy powergaming.

It is the same level of powergaming as sneaking up and putting a helmet on a mage and then claiming they can’t cast because they are not proficient.

Ehh, it's a far cry from clone shenanigans. it takes concentration of one of your casters and it can easily be removed. It's fire damage which is the worst damage and yes it's automatic and there's no save but it's not a lot of damage.
it's nothing more than a cool party trick the fun for a couple levels then it falls off.

[Damon_Tor]

Assumption 1: First, you as the DM have to rule it's a creature that can take a hit from a crossbow bolt that might stick into it and stay there, without it being close to immediately fatal. That probably means a Large creature, with either a significant number of hit points coming from a high constitution, or is pretty heavily armored.

I shot a deer with a crossbow a few days ago. Solidly medium creature. The arrow went high and lodged right under the spine. Missed the lungs. I chased that deer for half an hour with that arrow sticking out of it before it jumped over a fence onto a neighbor's property and vanished into the woods. As far as I know the arrow is still in it.

So I disagree with your assumptions.

Next, the spell would have to be cast on the bolt in advance, so it can be seen.

That's fair.

Now let's pick some numbers for a chance of the bolt sticking. How about either/or the attack is a critical hit, or the first damage die is an 8+. That'd be a 5% chance of a crit without advantage or a 9.75% of a critical with advantage, and failing that a 12.5% of 8 damage for a light crossbow or 30% for 8+ with a heavy.

Without advantage: 17% with a light crossbow and 33.5% with a heavy.

With advantage: 21% with a light crossbow and a whopping 37% with a heavy crossbow.

Would that feel balanced to you?

Seems complicated.

I prefer what Vogie suggested, the bolt always "sticks" to a degree based on the damage dealt. Removing it is an item interaction with a check equal to that damage, so no action required. So most of the time the enemy will be able to knock the bolt out before taking any damage at all.

[Misterwhisper]

Ehh, it's a far cry from clone shenanigans. it takes concentration of one of your casters and it can easily be removed. It's fire damage which is the worst damage and yes it's automatic and there's no save but it's not a lot of damage.
it's nothing more than a cool party trick the fun for a couple levels then it falls off.

It is just a stepping stone before someone wants to cast heat metal on their axe head and wants to add 2d6 fire damage.

[stoutstien]

It is just a stepping stone before someone wants to cast heat metal on their axe head and wants to add 2d6 fire damage.

Hmm if it also did the damage to one using the axe I could be a good risk/reward spell then

[BarneyBent]

It is just a stepping stone before someone wants to cast heat metal on their axe head and wants to add 2d6 fire damage.

Well firstly, they’d take the damage themselves as well. Secondly, for a 1 minute duration concentration effect it’s not that unbalanced. Compare to Elemental Weapon which has a lower damage die (1d4), but also makes the weapon a +1 weapon, you choose your damage type and lasts for an hour, as a 3rd level spell.

If a player wants to cast Heat Metal on their axe and take damage (I’d handwave the disadvantage - you chose to do this and are mentally prepared for the pain) in order to also do extra damage to an enemy then power to them. Would be super flavourful on a Tiefling, Fire Genasi or Forge Cleric.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Well firstly, they’d take the damage themselves as well. Secondly, for a 1 minute duration concentration effect it’s not that unbalanced. Compare to Elemental Weapon which has a lower damage die (1d4), but also makes the weapon a +1 weapon, you choose your damage type and lasts for an hour, as a 3rd level spell.

If a player wants to cast Heat Metal on their axe and take damage (I’d handwave the disadvantage - you chose to do this and are mentally prepared for the pain) in order to also do extra damage to an enemy then power to them. Would be super flavourful on a Tiefling, Fire Genasi or Forge Cleric.

No. Axes hafts are wood. Not metal. Their wouldn't be enough heat transference to the welder to matter.


What I don't remember in 5e is if objects ignore x amount of damage due to hardness.....like they did in 3.

[Chronos]

Even aside from the silly rule that HP don't represent actual corporeal damage (which is unrealistic and flies against all the underlying assumptions of the game), there's still no guarantee that a hit that does damage results in the bolt being embedded in the target. It could have grazed the target (and maybe even still did significant damage, depending on where it grazed), or it could have gone right through, or it could have penetrated in slightly but then fallen out, etc. And it'd take too much rules overhead to decide whether it was embedded or not.

Also, a bolt head is a very small amount of metal compared to the things the spell usually targets.

As for multiple casters using it on multiple metal items wielded by the same creature, though, that's not a matter of effects not stacking. It's a matter of damage, and damage always stacks (the game wouldn't work at all if that weren't true).

[Damon_Tor]

It is just a stepping stone before someone wants to cast heat metal on their axe head and wants to add 2d6 fire damage.

The timing issue means you couldn't use this as a damage multiplier on top of multiple attack rolls: Heat Metal deals damage only when the spell is cast and when the caster uses a bonus action to repeat it. It doesn't trigger on contact.

And even if a player were trying to make it work that way: oh no, a level 2 spell that adds 2d6 damage to a damage roll. How will the game possibly recover?

[NaughtyTiger]

The timing issue means you couldn't use this as a damage multiplier on top of multiple attack rolls: Heat Metal deals damage only when the spell is cast and when the caster uses a bonus action to repeat it. It doesn't trigger on contact.

ha, a druid could use it on his scimitar... use the bonus action, when he hits... and it would do 2 more points of damage than flame blade... poor flame blade.

[Demonslayer666]

As a DM and having a player ask me if they could target an embedded crossbow bolt with Heat Metal, I would say no. It's not metal, only the tip is made of metal. And it's not a weapon, it's ammunition for a weapon. And it's certainly not armor. So it's not eligible as a target for the spell.

Now I am thinking of an alchemist concoction of liquid metal, or metal flakes/dust/shavings in it that would make this work...