OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[OracleofWuffing]

I feel like killing the vampires and then finding a cleric who's prepared make whole or waiting a day so someone can is a lot simpler and gets the question settled, temporarily.

Well, if the allegations regarding vampire domination are coincidentally resolved in the meantime, that's a plus, too.

[CandidKid]

It's part of Durkon's character growth to become better at seeing the value of others' perspective. This is him acknowledging Elan's worldview and doing something primarily for the dramatic effect.

I'm not sure Durkon would be willing to risk the world ending just to show that he now values drama due to Elan. Seeing other viewpoints as valid is laudable, risking the lives of an entire planet to demonstrate that you do is not so much.

Because SCIENCE
He was probably hoping to take out the Exarch via light rays, but knew that even if it didn't then smashing the table is another side effect.

Going straight to smashing the table still seems like the more logical move. The point is to prevent the vote, not kill the Vampire-Formerly-Known-as-the-Exarch.

Because he would only be able to whack the table once before being petrified for property damage. Note that the hammer causes damage to the stone roof twice: once when he throws it and again when it returns to Durkon.

The regulations for the Council of Clans specify the table must be unbroken. If he failed to smash the table with his hammer, then it would merely be damaged, not broken.

That's possible.

Still, from a narrative perspective, the table needed to break. Durkon hitting it and breaking it in one attack is pretty much indistinguishable from his "throw and return" tactic, and arguably has a higher likelihood of success. It's an enchanted hammer wielded by a high level Cleric, after all. I don't doubt one attack would have been enough, and it gives far less time for the vote to completed.

Oh, well, Giant's story, Giant's decision; I just think hitting the table directly makes more sense. Maybe it'll come up in a future strip.

[brian 333]

I want to take a moment to gloat and say, "I called it!"

When I said Durkon would win by knowing the rules better than the vampires the critics declared that pulling out some obscure, unforshadowed rule would be anticlimatic and dumb.

So, nuh-unh! Thbbbbt!

Of course, this was my one thousandth prediction, and until this one I had a perfect record; 100% wrong, so it was a good bet.

As for the table:

Durkon attacked the roof instead of the table for one reason. Stonecunning.

Dwarves don't get a racial feat which gives them an advantage vs. wood but they do gain such a bonus vs. stone and stonework.

Also, add me to the list of folks who think Sigdi is trying to provoke Gonetor. Whether he gets stoned by the blue barrier or whether he is distracted while Durkon reanimates, it's a win for Team Thundershield.

[CandidKid]

I want to take a moment to gloat and say, "I called it!"

When I said Durkon would win by knowing the rules better than the vampires the critics declared that pulling out some obscure, unforshadowed rule would be anticlimatic and dumb.

So, nuh-unh! Thbbbbt!

Of course, this was my one thousandth prediction, and until this one I had a perfect record; 100% wrong, so it was a good bet.

Nice one!

As for the table:

Durkon attacked the roof instead of the table for one reason. Stonecunning.

Dwarves don't get a racial feat which gives them an advantage vs. wood but they do gain such a bonus vs. stone and stonework.

Given the Dwarvish hatred for trees (even the corpse of one), I'd say they'd get a bonus to attack and damage anyway!

[Cavenskull]

I'm not sure Durkon would be willing to risk the world ending just to show that he now values drama due to Elan. Seeing other viewpoints as valid is laudable, risking the lives of an entire planet to demonstrate that you do is not so much.



Going straight to smashin the table still seems like the more logical move. The point is to prevent the vote, not kill the Vampire-Formerly-Known-as-the-Exarch.



That's possible.

Still, from a narrative perspective, the table needed to break. Durkon hitting it and breaking it in one attack is pretty much indistinguishable from his "throw and return" tactic, and arguably has a higher likelihood of succeed. It's an enchanted hammer wielded by a high level Cleric, after all. I don't doubt one attack would have been enough, and it gives far less time for the vote to complete.

Oh, well, Giant's story, Giant's decision; I just think hitting the table directly makes more sense. Maybe it'll come it in a future strip.

I think you're missing the part where Sigdi is basically crediting Thor for guiding the hammer. I'd say the outcome isn't nearly as random as you're making it out to be.

And while it does seem likely that Durkon could have broken the table, he didn't have a good shot from where he was. He can't get airborne the way Belkar can, so he'd have to push some dwarves out of his way to get at the table. Depending on just how thorough the laws are, interfering with the meeting might get Durkon turned to stone before he ever got a clear shot at the table. Even if that wasn't a concern, the vampires don't have to attack Durkon to interfere with him. Merely standing in the way would be enough.

[GrayDeath]

Beautiful, funny and with perfect attention to detail.

Thank you once again, Rich!

[warmachine]

That is smart. Imagine the following conversation.

Hel: You interfered! You manipulated that hammer to break the table!
Thor: So? It didn't block any action or undo any effect. They could have just carried on as if nothing happened but they chose to follow their own rules. We create these kind of messages all the time, especially when our clerics are involved. If you want to manipulate objects with your holy symbol on it to break mortal's furniture, go right ahead.

[warmachine]

I love that the rules refer to the corpse of a tree. Essentially, the dwarves insist council votes are made on the preserved remains of what they regard as a vanquished, large enemy.

[Schroeswald]

Because SCIENCE
He was probably hoping to take out the Exarch via light rays, but knew that even if it didn't then smashing the table is another side effect.

I think he might also have been trying to collapse much of the roof (like his father did), but was prepared for Plan B .

[StarStorm]

You see, this is the difference between a rules lawyer and a rules master. The Lawyer knows which rules they need to follow, and how. The master knows which rules they need to break, and how.

[Skull the Troll]

Why would a hammer have such a cure? And also, the hammer has already returned. It-s lying a couple of feet from Durkon.

Grey Wolf

Because it might very well have been created for this explicit purpose by a god. That said, theres tons of other ways it could happen, Haley still has like 5 Chekhov's wands, They could run down Hilgya, etc.

[chiefwaha]

Reason Durkon didn't attack the table directly... Wood has a hardness of 5, and 10 HP per inch of thickness... You'd be looking at doing 65 HP or so with one strike. No way he'd be able to break it with a single attack.

I can totally imagine a player getting creative to circumvent the rules and this happening at a gaming session though.

[Sloanzilla]

Dwarves are just freaking awesome!

[gerryq]

Seems like it would have been simpler, albeit less dramatic, to just directly smash the table! Rule of cool, I guess.

[D.One]

Or... OR... Vampire kills Sigdi. Hel uses the same rules-lawyering that Thor did to claim followers ("she didn't die in combat. She wasn't technically attacking on the round she died") to claim Sigdi's soul, and sticks to her guns until the other gods let her have her. Everyone is sad, thus giving us enough melodrama for True Art(tm).

• The vampire attacks Sidgi
• Sidgi loses her axe in the Battle
• She bites the vampire
• He ceases to be a vampire and returns to life
• Sidgi opens a portal to Hel and attacks
• She frees the remaining dwarven souls there
• Hel dies with no honor, and thus Sidgi now owns her soul

[chiefwaha]

Seems like it would have been simpler, albeit less dramatic, to just directly smash the table! Rule of cool, I guess.

'Rule of cool' is rule #2, just barely behind, 'this is a game, have fun'.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seems like it would have been simpler, albeit less dramatic, to just directly smash the table! Rule of cool, I guess.

No, because (as the collected minds have determined so far in this thread; the list is therefore and perforce not exhaustive):

• By seemingly attacking the ceiling so that light flooded in, the vampires where misdirected as to what was going on really, and thus were not in a position of preventing it (by, say, deflecting the hammer)
• A table is not an easy object to break, even with a large hammer. Its HP and hardness means Durkon might have needed more than one strike, and one strike is all he knew he'd get
• There are people in the way, which Durkon might hit, or at least cause him to miss the table while trying to not hit them
• Likely others I've forgotten - I find the three above to be the most solidly plausible reasons

Problem being the dwarven soul thats stuck inside her might want something different.

If you hold out for the perfect solution, you don't get the decent one. OotS is not a story of unqualified successes: victory comes at a cost. Thor has already managed to liberate a year's worth of souls. Maybe a few more could still be liberated in the agreement, but the reality is that after a few years, souls loose their essential personality to the point where it cannot be recovered. Those souls "stuck inside her" for a couple of centuries have long been sickened into catatonia, I'm afraid, just like the CG souls have drugged themselves into mindlessness, and the ones in LE tortured into insanity.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

• The vampire attacks Sidgi
• Sidgi loses her axe in the Battle
• She bites the vampire
• He ceases to be a vampire and returns to life
• Sidgi opens a portal to Hel and attacks
• She frees the remaining dwarven souls there
• Hel dies with no honor, and thus Sidgi now owns her soul

Well that’s what one would do if you didn’t want to subvert expectations, it’s the obvious solution.

[Peelee]

Going straight to smashing the table still seems like the more logical move. The point is to prevent the vote, not kill the Vampire-Formerly-Known-as-the-Exarch.

The point is not to prevent the vote, at least as I read it. The vote is regardless, whether now or later. The point is to have the vote to in the direction of not ending the world. If Durkon were able to kill all vampires, ending the domination effect so that the majority of members voted no that would solve the problem. Delaying the vote also solves the same problem, if only temporarily, but killing the vampires would solve it permanently. Which means going for the roof was the most efficient move.

That's how I'm reading it, in any event. Could be wrong.

[danielxcutter]

Huh... it would appear Dwarves are better at writing requirements than modern tech companies!!

Elaborate plz.

1) The last few strips have been great.

2) I have rarely enjoyed seeing any villains losing more. I mean, sure Tarquin and Xykon are scum, but they do have a certain charm. The vampires have been thoroughly unlikeable in all ways.

I dunno, I thought some of the quips were funny, but yeah I'm pretty satisfied with the vampires getting their undead asses handed to them too.

No problem, they're clerics:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...%20and%20Water

Nitpick: that's a 5e source, but fortunately 3.5e has that spell too.

[Elkad]

They are a lot less dry if one does not over-mix and uses cold butter, the small globs of cold butter holding in the moisture during the quick baking process.

A lot of scones are tragically dry, and they further dry out as they go stale.

Yup, just like making pie crust. Cold fat, in tiny flat disks in the dough. Ice your butter, and it doesn't hurt to rechill the dough before working it. You get those fluffy/flaky layers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question for the thread: what is the word cut off in the second paragraph, near the end, in the sentence "permit one (1) representative of each current ext... to stand before it simultaneously"?

Given the sentences above and below (above has "sufficient" and the below has "table" or "room"), it can be a large word, but can't be several, and I'm not sure what word would slot in there and make sense. A synonym of "representative", maybe?

Thanks!

Elaborate plz.

I think the idea here is that frequently, the requirements given to a developer are sorely lacking in details. Honestly, these rules aren't that great. Witness the discussion over what they meant by "unbroken" in the thread so far. There is also a lack of detail on how closely you can pack the representatives.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Question for the thread: what is the word cut off in the second paragraph, near the end, in the sentence "permit one (1) representative of each current ext... to stand before it simultaneously"?

Given the sentences above and below (above has "sufficient" and the below has "table" or "room"), it can be a large word, but can't be several, and I'm not sure what word would slot in there and make sense. A synonym of "representative", maybe?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

"extended family (AKA clan)" ? I think that's too much though. Maybe just "extended family" ? Or is that still too big?

[Quebbster]

Question for the thread: what is the word cut off in the second paragraph, near the end, in the sentence "permit one (1) representative of each current ext... to stand before it simultaneously"?

Given the sentences above and below (above has "sufficient" and the below has "table" or "room"), it can be a large word, but can't be several, and I'm not sure what word would slot in there and make sense. A synonym of "representative", maybe?

Thanks!

My wild guess: "extant clan" - as in, the rules covers that you don't need to consider clans that have gone extinct.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"extended family (AKA clan)" ?

Feels too long.

OK, lets go for the OCD approach:

Meetings of the Council of Clans shall take place in a hall expressly constructed for
such purpose. The hall shall be located no more than one thousand feet above
sea level. It shall be protected with such mystical defenses as decided previously by
the Council, except for the first such meeting during which such defences will be
determined by majority vote.

Votes shall take place at a table fashioned from the corpse of a

tree. The table shall be of one (1) piece, unbroken and bearing sufficient
circumference to permit one (1) representative of each currently ext???
to stand before it simultaneously. No vote shall be complete in any that
fail to meet these requirements.

Now, the cut-off part is skewed, so the top lines should be able to hold more information, and because of that I can't see "extended family" being what is missing.

Grey Wolf

[Quercus_Arbor]

A scone is a type of pastry. I find them to be a bit dry myself.

That's OK in this case, because the rules provide for ample beer to counteract the dryness.

[Worldsong]

My wild guess: "extant clan" - as in, the rules covers that you don't need to consider clans that have gone extinct.

Seconding this. It fits and it'd probably cover at least one possible loophole (back when these meetings were still important) of someone trying to gain additional votes by claiming membership of a clan which has disappeared over the years.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My wild guess: "extant clan" - as in, the rules covers that you don't need to consider clans that have gone extinct.

Seconding this. It fits and it'd probably cover at least one possible loophole (back when these meetings were still important) of someone trying to gain additional votes by claiming membership of a clan which has disappeared over the years.

(moving this to its own post, since I suspect it was missed)

"Extant" and "current" are redundant, though. I'll accept that that is no impediment to this kind of document, but feels off. Besides, the document itself doesn't seem to have any other redundancies, so even though it'd fit the trope, it doesn't seem to be employing it.

Grey Wolf

[Jay R]

Still, from a narrative perspective, the table needed to break. Durkon hitting it and breaking it in one attack is pretty much indistinguishable from his "throw and return" tactic, and arguably has a higher likelihood of success. It's an enchanted hammer wielded by a high level Cleric, after all. I don't doubt one attack would have been enough, and it gives far less time for the vote to completed.

Oh, well, Giant's story, Giant's decision; I just think hitting the table directly makes more sense. Maybe it'll come it in a future strip.

Your idea is certainly a very clever way to reduce the suspense in the story, by eliminating the tension created when Durkon turned to stone.

Players try to win in the quickest, simplest way possible. But authors try to create the most suspense.

[Peelee]

Well, a quick and dirty search shows fewer than 700 words beginning with ext, and we can jump to the bottom and work our way up.

Frankly, I'm a fan of "extern clan". Any clan not involved directly in government is still allowed in the Council of Clans. "But Peelee, that's a pretty big stretch," you say? Why, I totally agree, but I just learned that word and I'm running with it!

Also, I propose a small change in your otherwise stellar analysis, highlighted in blue:

Meetings of the Council of Clans shall take plauce in a hall explicitly built for
such purpose. The hall shall be located no more than one thousand feet above
sea level. It shall be protected with such mystical defenses as decided previously by
the Council, except for the first such meeting during which such defences will be
determined by majority vote.
Votes shall take place at a table fashioned from the corpse of an oak
tree. The table shall be of one (1) piece, unbroken and bearing sufficient
circumference to permit one (1) representative of each currently ext???
to stand before it simultaneously. No vote shall be complete in any that
fail to meet these requirements.