how hel could have won

[Wizard_Lizard]

Why didn't Hel just make her afterlife more appealing than valhalla? that wy all the dwarves wouldn't care about honour, because te other option was nice too?
I get that she's evil and alll, but if she won legitamitly, watwould Thor think?
because you can't sell a resort by making the tourists do all of the chores for no pay.

[Shinizak]

Judging by how worshipers have affected Odin, it seems like the gods don't have much say in their own nature. they're beings made thoughts. if it's Hel's nature to have a terrifying afterlife than there's probably not much of a say she can have when it comes to diverging from that afterlife.

I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but that's kind of what's implied.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Judging by how worshipers have affected Odin, it seems like the gods don't have much say in their own nature. they're beings made thoughts. if it's Hel's nature to have a terrifying afterlife than there's probably not much of a say she can have when it comes to diverging from that afterlife.

I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but that's kind of what's implied.

I guess...

[Shinizak]

I guess...

I know, I'm in the same boat dude.

[Squire Doodad]

What someone could have done is different from what they will do. A different perspective, even from the same person, is often very useful.

Hel could have made her afterlife appealing, and created a massive Vampire church that has hordes of reasonably pleasant some of the time thinking undead that worship her, and with going to her domain being seen as the reward and becoming undead (and thus qualifying for Clerichood) the tip you give to the doorman.

Unfortunately, Hel appears to be a sadist and extremely begrudging of everything and everyone (possibly scaled to account for normal situations). She would rather watch everyone else suffer a thousand times over before she would try another person's route, especially the "sounds kinda Good" route.

[a_flemish_guy]

I actually suspect this was the lesson that loki wanted to learn to hel when the bet was proposed

previously hel didn't have any shortage in any of the 3 worship groups simply by merit of her portfolio, combined with her personality this resulted in her never really caring for any of her followers and instead taking out any frustrations on the souls who came into her domain
you don't apreciate what's given for free and all that

so I guess originally the plan was to get her to appreciate her followers by depriving her of them for a short while
of course, clearly this hasn't worked and actually made things worse

[Rrmcklin]

It seems incredibly strange to me to ask why an evil god wouldn't make their domain a paradise. Like, that's the kind of thing that should be obvious on its face.

Honestly, what is with this constant stream of threads dedicated to going "Hel should have done this/why didn't Hel do this/Hel's big mistake was this" etc?

[Schroeswald]

It seems incredibly strange to me to ask why an evil god wouldn't make their domain a paradise. Like, that's the kind of thing that should be obvious on its face.

Honestly, what is with this constant stream of threads dedicated to going "Hel should have done this/why didn't Hel do this/Hel's big mistake was this" etc?

Hey! It also includes Greg’s mistakes.

[Squire Doodad]

Hey! It also includes Greg’s mistakes.

And the Exarch. Sometimes.

[deuterio12]

It seems incredibly strange to me to ask why an evil god wouldn't make their domain a paradise. Like, that's the kind of thing that should be obvious on its face.

On the contrary, in the very same comic we've got the Evil Rat god that sends his fallen followers to an heavenly paradise.

Even the Dark One rallies his dead in a massive army where they can keep fighting which is Valhalla by any other name.

The black dragon mommy reported being happilly reunited with her beloved son after death so seems like Tiamat's afterlife isn't too shabby either.

The frost giant's "hell" for those who die dishonorably is a springlike land.

[factotum]

The problem here is simple: without clerics to spread her word, dwarves don't *know* what Hel's afterlife is actually like. We know it's a pretty dismal place to go because we can see behind the curtain, as it were, but I suspect part of how Thor has made Dwarven society as honour-bound as it is was to tell them "You die without honour, you go to Hel and suffer eternally". Even if Hel's kingdom were full of fluffy bunnies and free candyfloss machines, that would be exactly what Thor would tell them, and she'd have no way to counter that lie.

[Quebbster]

The problem here is simple: without clerics to spread her word, dwarves don't *know* what Hel's afterlife is actually like. We know it's a pretty dismal place to go because we can see behind the curtain, as it were, but I suspect part of how Thor has made Dwarven society as honour-bound as it is was to tell them "You die without honour, you go to Hel and suffer eternally". Even if Hel's kingdom were full of fluffy bunnies and free candyfloss machines, that would be exactly what Thor would tell them, and she'd have no way to counter that lie.

There's resurrections and plane shifts. It's possible to get hard facts about the afterlife in OotS-world.

[RatElemental]

Even the Dark One rallies his dead in a massive army where they can keep fighting which is Valhalla by any other name.

Acheron (where the Dark One's afterlife is) is pretty similar to Valhalla, yes, except you fight for goals you don't know because you either can't comprehend them or they don't exist and instead of just getting back up at the end of the day to go drink booze with your mates if you die you just stay dead. Which is to say it's like Valhalla but not fun.

It's also the border plane between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil so it's not just and evil afterlife. (Valhalla (actually called Ysgard in the SRD) is the exact opposite in alignment as well, it's the border plane between CG and CN)

[deuterio12]

Acheron (where the Dark One's afterlife is) is pretty similar to Valhalla, yes, except you fight for goals you don't know because you either can't comprehend them or they don't exist and instead of just getting back up at the end of the day to go drink booze with your mates if you die you just stay dead. Which is to say it's like Valhalla but not fun.

It's also the border plane between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil so it's not just and evil afterlife. (Valhalla (actually called Ysgard in the SRD) is the exact opposite in alignment as well, it's the border plane between CG and CN)

It's never specified the Dark one's afterlife is in Acheron (or even if there's an Acheron in ootsverse). Ysgard isn't Valhalla either even if there may be similarities just like comic Thor is more based in popular media Thor rather than D&D Thor.

What is however specified in the comic is that the goblinoid souls get rewarded with eternal battle, which means they don't need to worry about dying again. And I've yet to meet an army with no booze available, and since it needs to last an eternity, the Dark One's afterlife army by definition has an infinity of spirits.

[hamishspence]

It's never specified the Dark one's afterlife is in Acheron (or even if there's an Acheron in ootsverse). Ysgard isn't Valhalla either even if there may be similarities just like comic Thor is more based in popular media Thor rather than D&D Thor.

Its pretty clear that, from the number of afterlives being the same as in the Great Wheel, and generally being described in similar ways - that they are "Great Wheel afterlives with the serial numbers filed off"

From Jirix's "iron plateau" description, we can deduce that it is Acheron's equivalent.

[RatElemental]

It's never specified the Dark one's afterlife is in Acheron (or even if there's an Acheron in ootsverse). Ysgard isn't Valhalla either even if there may be similarities just like comic Thor is more based in popular media Thor rather than D&D Thor.

What is however specified in the comic is that the goblinoid souls get rewarded with eternal battle, which means they don't need to worry about dying again. And I've yet to meet an army with no booze available, and since it needs to last an eternity, the Dark One's afterlife army by definition has an infinity of spirits.

We see the great wheel, one of the spokes of which is Acheron. And while it was in crayon, both the illustration and Jirix's description fit that of Acheron.

[deuterio12]

We see the great wheel, one of the spokes of which is Acheron. And while it was in crayon, both the illustration and Jirix's description fit that of Acheron.

On the contrary, Jirix says the goblinoid souls get rewarded with eternal battle, thus it cannot be D&D Acheron's where you only get an extra bit of time, not eternity.

D&D's regular cosmology was already thrown off the window with the whole zillion world cycles and quiddity and Snarl and 3 well defined pantheons anyway.

[hamishspence]

A petitioner can be killed on Acheron, but if they don't get killed, they last for eternity. However, they will eventually become identical to all other petitioners.

[Forikroder]

thats assuming she had a choice, assuming anyone living would know and assuming it didnt start that way

she might have treated those in her domain well at first but as the centuries went on got increasing angry for a host of reasons and the dwarf souls, being a representation of exactly why shes suffering, just being easy targets to let her stress out on

[deuterio12]

A petitioner can be killed on Acheron, but if they don't get killed, they last for eternity. However, they will eventually become identical to all other petitioners.

People die when they're killed, that doesn't make us eternal by any definition of the word. Eternity means just that, no loopholes or backdoors, just fight forever regardless of what happens, that's the Dark One's promise, and "if you get stabbed in the afterlife you lose your eternal reward" isn't mentioned anywhere in the comic.

[hamishspence]

Just because Jirix says something, doesn't mean he's completely right - he doesn't know everything about the afterlife, after all.

And just because The Dark One has made a promise, doesn't guarantee "no loopholes".



Or, alternatively, it may simply be a case of "This is Acheron modified to have the minor positive-dominant trait Ysgard has"

[deuterio12]

Just because Jirix says something, doesn't mean he's completely right - he doesn't know everything about the afterlife, after all.

And just because The Dark One has made a promise, doesn't guarantee "no loopholes".

And just like absolutely nobody in the comic calls it Acheron, doesn't guarantee that it must be 100% 3.5 Acheron.

Or, alternatively, it may simply be a case of "This is Acheron modified to have the minor positive-dominant trait Ysgard has"

More like "this is loosely based in Acheron, but all bets are off just like there's no Pelor and the comic Thor has multiple differences from D&D Thor plus the comic gods have overseen a zillion worlds before including multiple cyberpunk ones also they need to combine this special resource called quiddity that's different between pantheons to make new life when in regular 3.5 D&D even a 21+ level non-god spellcaster can do it on their own".

But bigger point is that Jirix was happy with the prospect of the Dark One's afterlife. The goblinoids see it as paradise, not as punishment.

[woweedd]

OK, in general, the Evil afterlives are ‘t punishment, so much as the logical end result of a world where everyone is Evil: a dog eat dog nightmare, where the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must, the way most Evil people already think the world should work. As for why Hel doesn’t change her afterlife to be nicer...because she’s a sadist. Simple as that. She enjoys torturing people and isn’t the best at delaying gratification.

[The Pilgrim]

The problem here is simple: without clerics to spread her word, dwarves don't *know* what Hel's afterlife is actually like. We know it's a pretty dismal place to go because we can see behind the curtain, as it were, but I suspect part of how Thor has made Dwarven society as honour-bound as it is was to tell them "You die without honour, you go to Hel and suffer eternally". Even if Hel's kingdom were full of fluffy bunnies and free candyfloss machines, that would be exactly what Thor would tell them, and she'd have no way to counter that lie.

This, basically.

There's resurrections and plane shifts. It's possible to get hard facts about the afterlife in OotS-world.

Minrah didn't know the basic facts about the Astral Plane. And she was a Cleric. Very little people have the means to explore the Outer Planes. And most of them would be clerics of competing Gods.

Resurrections aren't an information source on the afterlifes because resurrected souls don't remember their time in the Afterlife (source: Roy Greenhilt). You only remember the clouds before the Afterlife, but not the Afterlife itself.

Just because Jirix says something, doesn't mean he's completely right - he doesn't know everything about the afterlife, after all.

In fact, Jirix's accounting was in Crayons. And we already know by now that crayon panels aren't exactly incontrovertible information in this Comic.

[HorizonWalker]

Jirix was also only there for a grand total of fifteen minutes. A not insignificant portion of which was spent putting on armor, and then being interrupted and lectured by his god.

He probably got at least one detail wrong.

[deuterio12]

That's fifteen minutes more in the Dark One's afterlife than anybody else in the comic, Jirix is the ultimate expert on the matter right now, even more than Redcloak himself that's only been on this side of the veil.

And again Jirix was happy. The goblinoids in the afterlife army were happy too. Whetever the specifics, the goblinoids are clearly satisfied with the Dark One's afterlife plan.

If it was a bleak place of despair, fifteen minutes would've been more than enough for Jirix to notice it and warn the new Gobotopia "Hey guys if we keep serving the Dark One all that awaits us is painful torment, we should start looking to alternatives!" just like all dwarves will do their best to escape Hel.

[Schroeswald]

That's fifteen minutes more in the Dark One's afterlife than anybody else in the comic, Jirix is the ultimate expert on the matter right now, even more than Redcloak himself that's only been on this side of the veil.

And again Jirix was happy. The goblinoids in the afterlife army were happy too. Whetever the specifics, the goblinoids are clearly satisfied with the Dark One's afterlife plan.

If it was a bleak place of despair, fifteen minutes would've been more than enough for Jirix to notice it and warn the new Gobotopia "Hey guys if we keep serving the Dark One all that awaits us is painful torment, we should start looking to alternatives!"

He's been there twice, because he was that cleric Miko killed during the Azure City invasion (his head was kicked off and used as a percussive force against another hobgoblin soldier), so he would have some time more than 15 minutes to know it.

[Razade]

We see the great wheel, one of the spokes of which is Acheron. And while it was in crayon, both the illustration and Jirix's description fit that of Acheron.

Firstly. That's not the Great Wheel. Those are color pools in the Astral Plane, which isn't even close to The Great Wheel. We don't know if OoTS even has a Great Wheel to see. Second of all, none of those is Acheron. We can presume it is but none of them are labeled as such and it's just an assumption on yours and anyone's part that want to argue that it is.

We also get Jirix's illustration of what it was like for him in the brief time he was there and not at all a full picture of the plane or anything else.

[hroþila]

Firstly. That's not the Great Wheel. Those are color pools in the Astral Plane, which isn't even close to The Great Wheel. We don't know if OoTS even has a Great Wheel to see.

In Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark, Vaarsuvius refers to the "sixteen unique planes of existence [that] form a great wheel around the central axis of reality". How canonical we should consider that is open to debate.

[Schroeswald]

In Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark, Vaarsuvius refers to the "sixteen unique planes of existence [that] form a great wheel around the central axis of reality". How canonical we should consider that is open to debate.

Wait, what? Where is that from? Did Rich write more than 1 extra stories with the characters in Shakespeare?