OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[The Shadow]

(most of them up till Gravid and then quite a few since),

Wait. Wait wait wait. I'm not very up on Star Wars lore, so please forgive my ignorance, but...

...There was a Dark Lord of the Sith named GRAVID?! And this person was MALE?!

His master *really* didn't like him much, did he? Or maybe he had the same theory as the father of the Boy Named Sue? "He'll HAVE to be strong, with a name like that!"

Or maybe the idea was his enemies would be too busy laughing to defend themselves properly?

I mean, really. It's not exactly a name to strike terror into the galaxy, now is it?

[Squire Doodad]

Wait. Wait wait wait. I'm not very up on Star Wars lore, so please forgive my ignorance, but...

...There was a Dark Lord of the Sith named GRAVID?! And this person was MALE?!

His master *really* didn't like him much, did he? Or maybe he had the same theory as the father of the Boy Named Sue? "He'll HAVE to be strong, with a name like that!"

Or maybe the idea was his enemies would be too busy laughing to defend themselves properly?

I mean, really. It's not exactly a name to strike terror into the galaxy, now is it?

It was supposed to be pronounced "Gravas", sort of like saying "crevasse" in a needlessly drawn out and melodramatic way.
But then it kinda slipped into vernacular because the name is from some obscure Outer Rim language you've probably never heard of.

[Particle_Man]

The thing is the Sith and Jedi both come from the same original rebellions against Illithids. After they overthrew the latter they split into the Sith-Yanki and Sith-Zerai, the latter becoming the Sith-Jedi and then just Jedi. The Sith-Yanki then shortened their name to Sith.

A big jump came when they replaced Silver Swords with Light-sabres. A pity about losing the Red Dragons though.

[Fyraltari]

an Evil Marty Stu (if such a thing is possible).

It has been heard of before.

Wait. Wait wait wait. I'm not very up on Star Wars lore, so please forgive my ignorance, but...

...There was a Dark Lord of the Sith named GRAVID?! And this person was MALE?!

His master *really* didn't like him much, did he? Or maybe he had the same theory as the father of the Boy Named Sue? "He'll HAVE to be strong, with a name like that!"

Or maybe the idea was his enemies would be too busy laughing to defend themselves properly?

I mean, really. It's not exactly a name to strike terror into the galaxy, now is it?

I guess you have never heard of Darth Bandon?

Edit: Even my autocorrect thinks his name is ‘‘Brandon’’.

EDIT2: There is also Darth Rivan who is a guy trying to cash in on Darth Revan’s fame in-universe. Which I find hilarious.

[Peelee]

It has been heard of before.

I guess you have never heard of Darth Bandon?

Edit: Even my autocorrect thinks his name is ‘‘Brandon’’.

EDIT2: There is also Darth Rivan who is a guy trying to cash in on Darth Revan’s fame in-universe. Which I find hilarious.

Spoiler: I honestly don't know if these aren't worse than some of the canon ones...

Show

[Wizard_Lizard]

It has been heard of before.

I guess you have never heard of Darth Bandon?

Edit: Even my autocorrect thinks his name is ‘‘Brandon’’.

EDIT2: There is also Darth Rivan who is a guy trying to cash in on Darth Revan’s fame in-universe. Which I find hilarious.

But no-one canwithstand the might of... ...jedi bob....

[Fyraltari]

But no-one canwithstand the might of... ...jedi bob....

Not even Sha’a Gi?

No, I am still not over that.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Not even Sha’a Gi?

No, I am still not over that.

not even......

[Schroeswald]

I have no knowledge of Darth Zannah. I heard bits of EU material, and I never had any interest in wasting any time on any of those books. Even if some do receive some praise. To me, SW is limited to the movies. Though I guess I should go ahead and watch Clone Wars, one day. Not a huge fan of animated content, though, especially since the quality of the animations is underwhelming.

One can dislike a character without disliking their characterization, though. Content vs container thing. I have a hard time getting emotions for what I'd feel about Rey as a fictional person, because my immersion is completely broken almost every time we see her, pulling some new stunt that contrasts so much with the 6 previous films.

Miko has none of these issues. More like a love to hate kind of thing. So, overall, positive, I never thought she hindered the story, and indeed, quite the opposite. Same with Celia, and Hilgya, who are handy tools to make fun of various D&D tropes (alignment systems, murderhoboism, racial cultural tropes, etc.). I love to hate characters like that, when our GMs bring them at our table. And gender has really nothing to do with it, the characters I've hated with most passion tended to be male (curse you, friendly and helpful magical gnome that pops in to help once it doesn't matter anymore! I'LL KILL YA!). Bandana and Andi aren't really amusing or interesting all that much, but there's nothing wrong with punctual support characters to help make the setting a bit more dynamic, project a bit of lore about the world the heroes evolve in. I'd rather have spent a bit less time on them, but that's not something I feel strongly about.

I am not actually talking about you specifically there, but even the Giant noticed that for some strange reason whenever he adds female characters nearby the party, they often keep getting insane hatred (in this book only Minrah Elle Shaleshoe, Grand Protector of Temples, Slayer of Nameless Vampires, She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions is free of it, and before only Kazumi), which must have nothing to do with their gender of course (of course everyone of them has their defenders, and usually these characters split the forum).

Wait. Wait wait wait. I'm not very up on Star Wars lore, so please forgive my ignorance, but...

...There was a Dark Lord of the Sith named GRAVID?! And this person was MALE?!

His master *really* didn't like him much, did he? Or maybe he had the same theory as the father of the Boy Named Sue? "He'll HAVE to be strong, with a name like that!"

Or maybe the idea was his enemies would be too busy laughing to defend themselves properly?

I mean, really. It's not exactly a name to strike terror into the galaxy, now is it?

The best thing about him, is that he thought the Sith should be light side users and mix the teachings of Jedi and Sith, and then he went bonkers and his apprentice killed him.

Not even Sha’a Gi?

No, I am still not over that.

I prefer Ima-Gun Di (pronounced I’m a gun dai).

[deuterio12]

I am not actually talking about you specifically there, but even the Giant noticed that for some strange reason whenever he adds female characters nearby the party, they often keep getting insane hatred

It's not a strange reason when you add a character that's perfect at everything and every other character loves them and their only supposed flaw doesn't actually hinder them in any way. Textbook Mary Sue.

Then there's the highest priestess of Loki who's a teamkiller that also ruined her own family just because they were devout followers of Thor's honor teachings and then literally Hel as the secret biggest bad trying to rush the world's destruction and also the only god that we've seen actively mistreating their own souls just for the evulz.

[Riftwolf]

Not even Sha’a Gi?

No, I am still not over that.

Did they deliberately make that guy look like Shaggy from Scooby Doo? When I clicked the link I thought someone had vandalised the wiki.

[Dion]

It's not a strange reason when you add a character that's perfect at everything and every other character loves them and their only supposed flaw doesn't actually hinder them in any way. Textbook Mary Sue..

Are you talking about Roy or Durkon?

[Fyraltari]

Did they deliberately make that guy look like Shaggy from Scooby Doo? When I clicked the link I thought someone had vandalised the wiki.

Yes, they did. They needed a one-scene padawan who would panicky and try to run away so they put Shaggy from Scooby-Doo in Star Wars. And, yes, they got Shaggy’s voice actor.

[Schroeswald]

<snipped cause Dion said it well enough>

Then there's the highest priestess of Loki who's a teamkiller that also ruined her own family just because they were devout followers of Thor's honor teachings and then literally Hel as the secret biggest bad trying to rush the world's destruction and also the only god that we've seen actively mistreating their own souls just for the evulz.

Hilgya and Hel (who I wasn’t even talking about but I’ll gladly add her to the list) are in fact evil, I have never denied that, but that doesn’t mean they’re written bad. Also we have seen the afterlives of two gods, Hel and TDO, the fact that this one specific god doesn’t mistreat his worshippers doesn’t mean it’s the norm among evil gods (also, none of the dwarves worship Hel, she’s evil, why bother treating them well).

[Cazero]

Are you talking about Roy or Durkon?

Probably Durkon.
Roy's character flaws have driven several arcs by being major obstacles, and them being corrected in a snap after an epiphany doesn't invalidate their prior existence disqualifying him from the coveted title of Mary Sue.

[Dion]

Are all the Rocky movies after the first one just a Mary Sue?

[KorvinStarmast]

I completely ignored that no one really insults Haley,

Other than Crystal and Celia ...

[Peelee]

Yes, they did. They needed a one-scene padawan who would panicky and try to run away so they put Shaggy from Scooby-Doo in Star Wars. And, yes, they got Shaggy’s voice actor.

John Dimaggio voiced Shaggy?

[Dion]

You know who really Mary Sued a movie so bad?

Jar Jar.

[KorvinStarmast]

And Belkar.

Hmm, he insults everyone. Fair point.

And Nale.

Hmm, I need to find where he insults Haley. But I will not bet against.

And Sabine.

Yes. Of course.

And Tarquin.

He seems quite taken with Haley's perky eyes, so I'd need to check out where he insults her.

And V.

Wait .... when? I thought V was always nice to Haley.

[Schroeswald]

Other than Crystal and Celia ...

You recognize I just meant forum people right?

And to help Dion out I’ll give another Mary Sue, Sherlock Holmes, we never learn why he’s so smart and so good of a detective.

[Fyraltari]

John Dimaggio voiced Shaggy?

I should have checked before writing that.

It is possible that the French dub used the same voice actor though, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I was probably thinking of something else.

[KorvinStarmast]

You recognize I just meant forum people right?

To be quite frank, I think that one of my early posts on the GiTP OoTS forums was me remarking on how annoying of a character Haley is, particularly during her emo arc. And that's kind of odd since I played rogue/thief more than any other PC class in D&D since I started playing.

And to help Dion out I’ll give another Mary Sue, Sherlock Holmes, we never learn why he’s so smart and so good of a detective.

He shows up already developed. Is that what a mary sue/marty stu character is? One who has no character development, or no need for character development?

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process.

To me, the term has become a throwaway perjorative where the whomever is using it is being too lazy to spell out what they object to in an assessment. I feel that TV-Tropes got this one right.

[Peelee]

I should have checked before writing that.

It is possible that the French dub used the same voice actor though, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I was probably thinking of something else.

You were probably thinking of the episode with the haunted kabuki theater outside the basketball stadium. I do enjoy a well-buttered floor.

[Goblin_Priest]

I am not actually talking about you specifically there, but even the Giant noticed that for some strange reason whenever he adds female characters nearby the party, they often keep getting insane hatred (in this book only Minrah Elle Shaleshoe, Grand Protector of Temples, Slayer of Nameless Vampires, She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions is free of it, and before only Kazumi), which must have nothing to do with their gender of course (of course everyone of them has their defenders, and usually these characters split the forum).

The best thing about him, is that he thought the Sith should be light side users and mix the teachings of Jedi and Sith, and then he went bonkers and his apprentice killed him.

I prefer Ima-Gun Di (pronounced I’m a gun dai).

Well, I mean, a lot of them are dislikable. Some might have argued that Miko was some sort of Vilain Sue, but I wouldn't even agree there. To me, being a Mary Sue requires capacities breaking the known rules of the setting. She's just a high level character displaying no higher prowess than one would expect from a high level character. And indeed, with many crippling flaws. She also held back the protagonists for a good part of the story, and visibly many readers display impatience towards "side-quests" and "side-arcs", and tend to complain when we haven't seen Team Evil in a while. Not really warranted, imo, but still independant of Miko's gender. Many readers also crave humor from this comic, and I don't recall Miko being all that funny.

And honestly, I think that last point is pretty critical. How many of the Giant's female characters are actually funny? Because the only one's that coming to mind is the only one that's universally liked: Haley.

Minrah does seem appreciated, though, and she did pull a few good lines, though her being of such low power makes her feel somewhat irrelevant, thus less appealing. I've got the impression that character appreciation is dependant on two key metrics: 1) how funny is this character, and 2) how relevant is this character to the overall plot.

Miko, Hilgya, and Tsukiko are not particularly funny, in fact one could argue they were written specifically to be dislikable. But they play important roles in the story.

Andi is basically a Miko lite, though. A "good guy" that hinders the party's efforts but ultimately fixes itself. Miko's actions at least had important ramifications. Andi's... not so much, so that arc wasn't really funny, nor really meaningful, and I could see why some would feel she was a waste of time. Bandana largely falls into the same boat, with the added issue of what many felt was virtue signaling, with that whole exchange not really adding anything in terms of story or humor, and felt like an awkward display of "my world is progressive y'all!".

In a way it's somewhat ironic. Rich has good intents, and wants to fix some things he considered flaws in his earlier works. One such example is recurring to what was basically a Smurfette (Haley being the only girl, and being pretty much only characterized by feminine [and rogue] tropes), and there being overall few female characters. Which wasn't his intent, but just came off naturally. Now he tries to "do better" by forcing better representation, but, well, it's forced. And that's absolutely a great part of why his female characters don't tend to be liked a lot.

How many male characters does Rich introduce that hog up many panels and speech bubbles, without contributing to the story (such as exposition or being antagonists) or serving to deliver humor? Not a whole lot, I'd say. And it does feel like Rich is stuck with a legacy of meaningful characters that tended to be overwhelmingly male, and now tries to up female representation, but it's too late to introduce too many more major characters, so he largely tries to compensate with female minor characters, while overusing them to improve the overall female screen time. Besides, many male characters that do contribute to the story also get hate. Tarquin, Nale, Kabuto, Zzditiri (however those are spelled), and so on, are also disliked by a number of people.

It's not a strange reason when you add a character that's perfect at everything and every other character loves them and their only supposed flaw doesn't actually hinder them in any way. Textbook Mary Sue.

Then there's the highest priestess of Loki who's a teamkiller that also ruined her own family just because they were devout followers of Thor's honor teachings and then literally Hel as the secret biggest bad trying to rush the world's destruction and also the only god that we've seen actively mistreating their own souls just for the evulz.

None of them are Mary Sues, imo, but many of them have patently offensive personalities. They are arrogant, obnoxious, egoists, and hinder the party. If we were meant to like Hilgya, then why show us trying to poison her nice husband and trick Durkon into betraying his morals? As for Miko, she also revolves around the highly flammable topic of alignment and the paladin code. On that note, there was also a lot of talk about the other (including male) paladins' actions in Start of Darkness.

Not even Sha’a Gi?

No, I am still not over that.

That's hilarious.

[Fyraltari]

He shows up already developed. Is that what a mary sue/marty stu character is? One who has no character development, or no need for character development?

It is not. I think Schroeswald is being sarcastic here.

[KorvinStarmast]

My "reply with quote" function isn't working.

Did I accidentally click something I should not have?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My "reply with quote" function isn't working.

Did I accidentally click something I should not have?

What happens when you hover over the reply with quote link? Does the browser show an address? Have you tried another browser? Also, obligatory: did you try turning it off and on again?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

My "reply with quote" function isn't working.

Did I accidentally click something I should not have?

What happens if you hit Multiquote, then Reply to Thread?

[Schroeswald]

It's not a strange reason when you add a character that's perfect at everything and every other character loves them and their only supposed flaw doesn't actually hinder them in any way. Textbook Mary Sue.

Then there's the highest priestess of Loki who's a teamkiller that also ruined her own family just because they were devout followers of Thor's honor teachings and then literally Hel as the secret biggest bad trying to rush the world's destruction and also the only god that we've seen actively mistreating their own souls just for the evulz.

Okay, you know what, I need to know who you’re talking about as a textbook Mary Sue, because if your talking about Durkon, I completely ignored him due to his male gender and only you hating him, is it Sigdi? Are you calling Sigdi the Mary Sue? Because none of the characters I mentioned are loved by everyone, in fact most of them have clear people who hate them, and of them only Andi hating Bandana is actually shown as wrong (most of the rest are shown as right).