OOTS #1179 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

That's not just graphics, though. That's actual changes in gameplay. Poor visibility and right-hand/elevation advantage completely alter the experience of an FPS.

I was talking more about immersion than graphics at that point, but yes. At the same time, those weren't yet drastically different from their 2D counterparts. In particular: Doom didn't support looking up or down, all the weapons traveled in straight lines, and firing down a vertical plane containing an enemy would automatically account for any elevation difference. While certainly not identical to 2D top-down games that track elevation (Chaos Engine comes to mind, where projectiles are blocked by higher elevations but not lower), it doesn't seem quite different enough to be foremost on "why was this game so critically acclaimed?" lists. (Or at the very least, elevation appeared to be incidental during the initial widespread transition to 3D engines, as far as I could tell at the time; height advantage remained important in genres where it was already important, and it was just kind of along for the ride elsewhere).

[hroþila]

it's still just way too full of cut scenes (not to mention stuff that take a lot longer than it feels like it should). If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a movie. I play games when I want to play games.

I feel you would simply dismiss Life Is Strange with this attitude and that is sad.

[The Pilgrim]

If you want a good example of how War Never Changes, there was aggressive backlash against this change because my God a female character doing something powerful. In some quarters they called it "madwoman's chess."

Well, the new rule expanded quickly nonetheless. After all, if men of the era had not wanted a "female character" to do "something powerful", they wouldn't have had a "female character" in chess to begin with. The piece originally represented the king's vizier, not a queen. It were the medieval europeans who changed the piece into the Queen, introducing a female character into the game. In India, Persia or the arabic world, it remained as the vizier, and was never "upgraded".

It was after changing the piece into a Female Queen, when the europeans began to feel that the piece lacked proper "power". There are a lot of theories about why the change was made, but fact is that the oldest surviving chess book depicting the upgraded queen comes from Spain, published during the reign of Queen Isabella I of Castile. So the political implications of upgrading the power of the Queen in chess seem obvious to me.

Chess was also game widely played by aristocratic women, and considered a proper game for women to play. So maybe the change was also an early example of a marketing maneuver to make the product more appealing for female audiences.

[factotum]

While certainly not identical to 2D top-down games that track elevation (Chaos Engine comes to mind, where projectiles are blocked by higher elevations but not lower), it doesn't seem quite different enough to be foremost on "why was this game so critically acclaimed?" lists.

Out of interest, were you around and playing games in 1993? I was, and I remember Doom's launch. It was considered such a significant title that the PC gaming magazine I regularly bought in those days said something like this in the first paragraph of their review of the game:

"What?" I can hear you say. "Why is this game here in the main review section, rather than at the back with the other shareware dross?" I'll tell you why: because this is probably the best game that's come out this year.

It's difficult to remember now just how significant a change the move to 3D was back then. This is three years before 3Dfx released the first Voodoo Graphics chip and two years before the Playstation was the first home console with significant 3D capabilities. Primitive as they were, the 3D graphics in Doom dialled up the immersion compared to top-down 2D. They were also significantly improved over Wolfenstein 3D--it wasn't just the ability to have different vertical levels, it was the ability to have angled walls (Wolfenstein was laid out on a square grid, it really wasn't much more advanced than the 3D maze games from the 80s) that made for much more impressive level designs.

[Jasdoif]

Out of interest, were you around and playing games in 1993?

Yes, though we wouldn't have an IBM-compatible PC (replacing the Atari ST) until a couple years later.

Primitive as they were, the 3D graphics in Doom dialled up the immersion compared to top-down 2D. They were also significantly improved over Wolfenstein 3D--it wasn't just the ability to have different vertical levels, it was the ability to have angled walls (Wolfenstein was laid out on a square grid, it really wasn't much more advanced than the 3D maze games from the 80s) that made for much more impressive level designs.

This sounds rather like what I said about Doom in the first place, except with the focus on Doom itself rather than what I was responding to when I brought it up...namely, that the short period of "graphics over gameplay" Ruck was talking about, looked to me like a lot of game companies saw Doom had fancy 3D* and did incredibly well, and went for 3D on what they were already planning on without quite understanding why Doom did so well with it.

* By which I mean textured 3D, primarily; games with solid-colored polygons had been around for quite a while, and wireframes even longer. 1983's Star Wars comes to mind; as do Elite, Mercenary, Battlezone....Hey, Battlezone is a few months older than I am, if I didn't answer your earlier question to your satisfaction

[Mad Humanist]

So now every time somebody talks about whole foods or organic food or getting back to nature or whatever I am going to think about the High Priest of Fenrir. It totally changes how I see it.

[factotum]

* By which I mean textured 3D, primarily; games with solid-colored polygons had been around for quite a while, and wireframes even longer. 1983's Star Wars comes to mind; as do Elite, Mercenary, Battlezone....Hey, Battlezone is a few months older than I am, if I didn't answer your earlier question to your satisfaction

Bah, young whippersnapper, get off my lawn! (Battlezone came out in 1980, so I got 10 years on you ). Textured 3D wasn't unknown before Doom--the PC version of Frontier: Elite 2 in 1992 had textured polygons, although it had the unfortunate effect of making it look like somebody had tacked carpet onto the hulls of the ships. I think personally that you're crediting the wrong thing for the explosion of 3D games in the 90s, though--it was really the introduction of proper hardware 3D acceleration in the mid-90s that led to world+dog changing their games to use it. All that Doom led to was a rash of first person shooter copycats, and even then there were some darned fine games in that category, like Duke Nukem 3D and Star Wars: Dark Forces.

[Themrys]

Because we've run out of things to say about the comic by now and I feel like talking about Harry Potter right now. I'm aware of what you were doing, I just don't care enough to not "fall for it." I'm gonna talk about Harry Potter now and nobody can stop me.

Neville's greatest fear in 3rd year was Snape and that was a Red Flipping Flag, folks.

The real question here is: Why is Neville's worst fear the teacher who says nasty things to him and once threatened to kill his toad, and not the uncle, who repeatedly put him in life-threatening situations on purpose and once (more or less accidentally, I would say rather less) dropped him from a window so high Neville would have died or at least been badly injured if he actually was a squib?

Just saying. The fact that said uncle was (and still is) allowed to visit after doing all those things to Neville isn't just a red flag, it's a communist parade.

[Jasdoif]

So now every time somebody talks about whole foods or organic food or getting back to nature or whatever I am going to think about the High Priest of Fenrir. It totally changes how I see it.

Brings a whole new meaning to "free range", doesn't it?

Textured 3D wasn't unknown before Doom--the PC version of Frontier: Elite 2 in 1992 had textured polygons, although it had the unfortunate effect of making it look like somebody had tacked carpet onto the hulls of the ships. I think personally that you're crediting the wrong thing for the explosion of 3D games in the 90s, though--it was really the introduction of proper hardware 3D acceleration in the mid-90s that led to world+dog changing their games to use it. All that Doom led to was a rash of first person shooter copycats, and even then there were some darned fine games in that category, like Duke Nukem 3D and Star Wars: Dark Forces.

Hmm...while that does make sense, the timing overlap makes me wonder just how much the wildly popular 3D game motivated the development of dedicated 3D hardware.

Like you mentioned, it's not like it was a brand-new capability at the time; my memory's a little fuzzy on the details here, but I believe that Wolfenstein 3D's textured walls were inspired by Ultima Underworld's full-textured-3D, with John Carmack coming up with a way to do the texturing without the big performance hit (and corresponding system requirements) Ultima Underworld had...I say as I remember the demo for Frontier: Elite 2 running under 10 frames-per-second on the Atari ST's 8MHz processor. Anyway, there's nearly always something provoking a demand for starting in a new direction...and by golly, Doom looks to fit the bill.

(Ultima Underworld's engine would, of course, be behind System Shock less than a year after Doom...but we could be here forever talking about one of my favorite games of all time )

[Sir_Galliant]

Old games? I do know of a few. I also don't believe forums here have ever derailed for Enix, Square, of Square Enix games in the time I've been here....

So, Dragon Warrior was a great game, and the codifier which started bringing RPGs to the attention of the masses.

[Gnoman]

Brings a whole new meaning to "free range", doesn't it?

Hmm...while that does make sense, the timing overlap makes me wonder just how much the wildly popular 3D game motivated the development of dedicated 3D hardware.

Like you mentioned, it's not like it was a brand-new capability at the time; my memory's a little fuzzy on the details here, but I believe that Wolfenstein 3D's textured walls were inspired by Ultima Underworld's full-textured-3D, with John Carmack coming up with a way to do the texturing without the big performance hit (and corresponding system requirements) Ultima Underworld had...I say as I remember the demo for Frontier: Elite 2 running under 10 frames-per-second on the Atari ST's 8MHz processor. Anyway, there's nearly always something provoking a demand for starting in a new direction...and by golly, Doom looks to fit the bill.

(Ultima Underworld's engine would, of course, be behind System Shock less than a year after Doom...but we could be here forever talking about one of my favorite games of all time )

Sort of. Carmack already had a crude 3D engine (used in the game Hovertank 3D) when he heard about the texture-mapping in the in-development UU, and upgraded the engine to include it in Catacomb 3D. Romero then suggested that a mechanically simple run-and-gun action game would be the best way to sell this engine (because most first-person games on the market were fairly slow-paced affairs), and pitched a remake of Castle Wolfenstein.

[GrayGriffin]

The real question here is: Why is Neville's worst fear the teacher who says nasty things to him and once threatened to kill his toad, and not the uncle, who repeatedly put him in life-threatening situations on purpose and once (more or less accidentally, I would say rather less) dropped him from a window so high Neville would have died or at least been badly injured if he actually was a squib?

Just saying. The fact that said uncle was (and still is) allowed to visit after doing all those things to Neville isn't just a red flag, it's a communist parade.

I mean, the one time he talks about it he actually recounts it with some pride, because it turned out he was magic after all. On the other hand, Snape constantly berates and insults Neville, and I think you're underestimating the damage that "saying nasty things" can do to someone, especially from someone with as much power over you as a teacher.

[Ruck]

Old games? I do know of a few. I also don't believe forums here have ever derailed for Enix, Square, of Square Enix games in the time I've been here....

So, Dragon Warrior was a great game, and the codifier which started bringing RPGs to the attention of the masses.

heh, the Dragon Warrior games might be even more responsible for my love of JRPGs than the Final Fantasy games. (I still remember for Christmas 1992 asking for a copy of Dragon Warrior III and instead getting Dragon Warrior IV, a game I didn't even know had been made and released yet.)

[factotum]

I say as I remember the demo for Frontier: Elite 2 running under 10 frames-per-second on the Atari ST's 8MHz processor.

Atari ST and Amiga versions of Frontier didn't have the textured polygons, they were just not very good at 3D thanks to the slow CPU. (The PC I bought to replace my Amiga had a 40MHz CPU, and a much simpler video display that was far easier to use with 3D rendering).

[NNescio]

Old games? I do know of a few. I also don't believe forums here have ever derailed for Enix, Square, of Square Enix games in the time I've been here....

So, Dragon Warrior was a great game, and the codifier which started bringing RPGs to the attention of the masses.

heh, the Dragon Warrior games might be even more responsible for my love of JRPGs than the Final Fantasy games. (I still remember for Christmas 1992 asking for a copy of Dragon Warrior III and instead getting Dragon Warrior IV, a game I didn't even know had been made and released yet.)

Interestingly, Dragon Quest (renamed in the American release because of trademark issues) itself is inspired by Ultima, with elements of Wizardry thrown in. Both of these were inspired by D&D.

Final Fantasy also draws inspiration from these two sources, on top of Dragon Quest itself.

So, yes, most JRPGs can trace their ineage back to Dungeons and Dragons. (Which is why you will sometimes see monsters that are suspiciously-similar to mindflayers and beholders in JRPGs. Like the "sorcerer" from FF.)

Though, some seem to also draw inspiration more directly from AD&D (1e and 2e). In these games you will find Moorcock-ian Law/Chaos alignment systems (that don't necessarily correspond to post 3e concepts of Law and Chaos). Usually these are SRPG tactics games, or... computer RPGs... the latter of which tend to be, well, shall we say "age-restricted".

[Squire Doodad]

Interestingly, Dragon Quest (renamed in the American release because of trademark issues) itself is inspired by Ultima, with elements of Wizardry thrown in. Both of these were inspired by D&D.

Final Fantasy also draws inspiration from these two sources, on top of Dragon Quest itself.

So, yes, most JRPGs can trace their ineage back to Dungeons and Dragons. (Which is why you will sometimes see monsters that are suspiciously-similar to mindflayers and beholders in JRPGs. Like the "sorcerer" from FF.)

Though, some seem to also draw inspiration more directly from AD&D (1e and 2e). In these games you will find Moorcock-ian Law/Chaos alignment systems (that don't necessarily correspond to post 3e concepts of Law and Chaos). Usually these are SRPG tactics games, or... computer RPGs... the latter of which tend to be, well, shall we say "age-restricted".

Chaos means that you have the right to become a giant yellow demon fueled by the elemental powers of the world, right?

Of particular interest to me is the Mother series: they aren't quite as old as FF (a few years off, still NES) but they have almost no roots in DnD except in a broad sense pertaining to mechanics. One of the early cases of a proper JRPG that broke off from the pure fantasy archetype. You had plenty of games that were of quasi-medieval knights facing off against great evils, and then you had a couple of kids wandering around with highly limited adult supervision blast snakes, streetcars and UFOs with lasers.

[Ruck]

Chaos means that you have the right to become a giant yellow demon fueled by the elemental powers of the world, right?

Of particular interest to me is the Mother series: they aren't quite as old as FF (a few years off, still NES) but they have almost no roots in DnD except in a broad sense pertaining to mechanics. One of the early cases of a proper JRPG that broke off from the pure fantasy archetype. You had plenty of games that were of quasi-medieval knights facing off against great evils, and then you had a couple of kids wandering around with highly limited adult supervision blast snakes, streetcars and UFOs with lasers.

I'm reminded of some website I read ages ago that catalogued a bunch of RPG clichés. Some I remember were that "Every 8-bit RPG is about you, the hero, taking on some dark supernatural force of evil that threatens to destroy the world," "Every 16-bit RPG is about a brave band of heroes going up against an Evil Empire," and "In every RPG, without question, you are trying to save the world."

[Squire Doodad]

I'm reminded of some website I read ages ago that catalogued a bunch of RPG clichés. Some I remember were that "Every 8-bit RPG is about you, the hero, taking on some dark supernatural force of evil that threatens to destroy the world," "Every 16-bit RPG is about a brave band of heroes going up against an Evil Empire," and "In every RPG, without question, you are trying to save the world."

Hm...
Geigue is an effectively supernatural/extraterrestrial force of evil threatening to destroy the world, while in EB/Mother 3 you are a brave band of children/20 something year olds going up against an evil empire of Porky and/or Starmen.

Yep, checks out, the Mother series is just another instance in a long list of clichés.

I do imagine that the "save the world" aspect is generally true though, simply because if you allow for other scales of "world" then it is the most feasible explanation of why you are doing things. You can have the initial reason be merc work, or avenging someone's death, but 9 times out of 8 you're going to have a serious world-burning threat for the final boss (though it may just be your world, not the entire planet/solar system/galaxy).

[NNescio]

Chaos means that you have the right to become a giant yellow demon fueled by the elemental powers of the world, right?

Huh. That one was a very Moorcock-ian villain, all right. And the plot feels like Elemental Evil, and the map even sort of looks like one of those early era D&D campaign maps... hmm. Come to think of it the FF series do seem to borrow more directly from D&D then Dragon Quest ever did. At least before its chuuni edgelord* FFVII days.

(*Not intended to be disparaging.)

Square staff always seem to avoid mentioning D&D as a (direct) source of inspiration, instead pointing to DQ and Ultima and Wizardry in interviews... but now that I've given a thought, there's a lot of elements (for the earlier games) that seem borrowed directly from D&D. Even the spellcasting is Vancian! (Unlike DQ which immediately went for the MP route).

Of particular interest to me is the Mother series: they aren't quite as old as FF (a few years off, still NES) but they have almost no roots in DnD except in a broad sense pertaining to mechanics. One of the early cases of a proper JRPG that broke off from the pure fantasy archetype. You had plenty of games that were of quasi-medieval knights facing off against great evils, and then you had a couple of kids wandering around with highly limited adult supervision blast snakes, streetcars and UFOs with lasers.

Yeah, that one just borrowed the bare basics of mechanics from DQ, then junked all the fantasy and sword & sorcery tropes in favor of a... highly innovative setting inspired by contemporary Western pop culture and events. Musicians in particular, but the Onett cops boss fight was also disturbingly similar to a certain real-life news event in America (can't say more). IIRC some of the references were even more explicit in the Japanese version before they censored them for the Western release.

Hey, you know what, it was basically JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: the Game. Draws from the same source (Western pop culture), has lots of references to music artists and rock bands (which also get censored due to trademark concerns when translated), and generally filled with much wackiness.

I'm reminded of some website I read ages ago that catalogued a bunch of RPG clichés. Some I remember were that "Every 8-bit RPG is about you, the hero, taking on some dark supernatural force of evil that threatens to destroy the world," "Every 16-bit RPG is about a brave band of heroes going up against an Evil Empire," and "In every RPG, without question, you are trying to save the world."

Pokémon? Well, there's Team Rocket, but they were more like a sidequest. And utterly incompetent anyway.

(Of course later incarnations of Pokémon would have some sort of world-ending threat to up the ante. )

And I think there's a few SRPGs (not the IntSys ones) where most sides are gray (the imperial faction is usually 'darker'), except for the player who can choose to be the biggest jerk by picking the Chaos route (where you usually get to destroy or dominate the world). The Langrisser series usually has that option. Plus some JCRPGs. Though you can do it in some of the Atlus console stuff too like MegaTen.

Though yeah, being a good guy is saving the world (on some scale or other) is generally the norm for RPGs. (Same with tabletop gaming, the default assumption is that players play heroes.)

[factotum]

Though yeah, being a good guy is saving the world (on some scale or other) is generally the norm for RPGs. (Same with tabletop gaming, the default assumption is that players play heroes.)

But not *all*. For example, your basic mission in Planescape: Torment is to save *yourself*--the big bad is a part of you that was separated out when you were made immortal, and its only objective is to kill you, not destroy the world.

[Peelee]

Pokémon? Well, there's Team Rocket, but they were more like a sidequest. And utterly incompetent anyway.

Team Rocket in Red/Blue is pretty dang competent; they successfully complete takeovers of entire corporations, built a large underground complex in the middle of a large city without raising suspicion, run a successful gaming parlor, and generally succeed until they run into you, who goes from the boonies to Pokémon League Champion in a meteoric rise. These guys are like professional fighters in a pool hall when you're Muhammed Ali - of course you're going to absolutely demolish them, but that has no bearing on how competent they were.

[RatElemental]

Team Rocket in Red/Blue is pretty dang competent; they successfully complete takeovers of entire corporations, built a large underground complex in the middle of a large city without raising suspicion, run a successful gaming parlor, and generally succeed until they run into you, who goes from the boonies to Pokémon League Champion in a meteoric rise. These guys are like professional fighters in a pool hall when you're Muhammed Ali - of course you're going to absolutely demolish them, but that has no bearing on how competent they were.

Team Rocket in Gold/Silver/Crystal is the saddest villain group to ever exist though, honestly. I don't even know what their plan actually was, and wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have one and that was just disparate mid level leadership jockeying to get something done without Giovanni around.

[Peelee]

Team Rocket in Gold/Silver/Crystal is the saddest villain group to ever exist though, honestly. I don't even know what their plan actually was, and wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have one and that was just disparate mid level leadership jockeying to get something done without Giovanni around.

Yeah, but the sequels are kind of make everyone stupid (by necessity).

"There are only 150 Pokémon in the world. That's it. That's the limit."
*looks over to the neighboring region for literally the first time ever*
"Holy **** more Pokémon! OK, that's the new limit, no more than that though!"

[rinse and repeat]

[Squire Doodad]

Team Rocket in Gold/Silver/Crystal is the saddest villain group to ever exist though, honestly. I don't even know what their plan actually was, and wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have one and that was just disparate mid level leadership jockeying to get something done without Giovanni around.

HGSS does a better job with them though, and helps clear up that they were planning on getting Giovanni out of hiding. It was a far less competent job than RBY (Giovanni kept the clocks wound so to speak), but they still do...something.

Team Flare, on the other hand, had a coherent strategy but I'm kinda annoyed by the fact that they had like 10 admins and none of them were actually memorable. They could have half the amount they did, and each one would feel much more important. Plus, highly limited post game and overall a story that probably could have used a little more time in the oven (play up the backstory, not play it down; too many admins and rivals that do nothing; also Diantha didn't quite feel present).

[RatElemental]

HGSS does a better job with them though, and helps clear up that they were planning on getting Giovanni out of hiding. It was a far less competent job than RBY (Giovanni kept the clocks wound so to speak), but they still do...something.

Team Flare, on the other hand, had a coherent strategy but I'm kinda annoyed by the fact that they had like 10 admins and none of them were actually memorable. They could have half the amount they did, and each one would feel much more important. Plus, highly limited post game and overall a story that probably could have used a little more time in the oven (play up the backstory, not play it down; too many admins and rivals that do nothing; also Diantha didn't quite feel present).

Over all I think Gen 5 is my favorite. The team had an interesting goal, especially since they were in the dark about what Ghetsis was actually planning, N had a few good points, and you get to meet an ex Team rocket member in the post game.

Oh, and they friggin' invaded the pokemon league using a castle.

[Squire Doodad]

Over all I think Gen 5 is my favorite. The team had an interesting goal, especially since they were in the dark about what Ghetsis was actually planning, N had a few good points, and you get to meet an ex Team rocket member in the post game.

Oh, and they friggin' invaded the pokemon league using a castle.

Unova was the best gen ^-^
Alola was pretty good (at least in Ultra, SuMo felt lacking...something, not sure what), but Kalos paled in comparison to Unova.

[RatElemental]

Unova was the best gen ^-^
Alola was pretty good (at least in Ultra, SuMo felt lacking...something, not sure what), but Kalos paled in comparison to Unova.

Well over all Gen 3 is my favorite generation, Gen 5 just had the best villains. Gen 5 as a whole is a close second though.

[Squire Doodad]

Well over all Gen 3 is my favorite generation, Gen 5 just had the best villains. Gen 5 as a whole is a close second though.

Personally, I feel as though while Gen 3 had a strong story and had some of the early signs of Overly Complex Gameplay (tm), Gen 5 had an actually compelling story (on the FF level, well beyond anything one would expect or find in Pokemon usually) and had all of the best components of the gameplay we have now, barring the addition of Destiny Knots/IV Chart (as opposed to the Judge) to make breeding easier. I personally would rank it as being the first "modern" Pokemon generation, and definitely in my top list.
My first games were Gen 4, but that was quite a while ago (fun fact: HGSS turned 10 in Japan last Tuesday. It won't be the same for the US until March 2020 though. Also, DP and earlier all came out closer to the release of RBY than to today.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hilgya was last seen looking at the escaping vampire, so it's possible the two will interact in some way.
Still thinking that one vampire will escape and plague the Dwarven Lands with a long term vampiric infestation.
We haven't had any resolution on Kudzu's situation yet. No way Hilgya is gone right now. Now, that the immediate danger has passed settling that would be Durkon's first priority and, I supsect, the subject of the upcoming strip(s).

I personally do think Hilgya hasn’t interacted with the vampire yet, since I feel like otherwise we would have just seen it on-panel. So, I think she most likely escaped. I don’t think know how much of a threat she’ll actually pose, however. As for Kuzdu, you’re right that Durkon probably does want to settle that soon. But will it be a priority before dealing with the Snarl?

I for one find it implausible that Hilgya did absolutely nothing to capture or destroy the vampire that she noticed wafting right by her in mist form. Maybe it'll be revealed that she caught or smoked her offscreen. Or maybe it's a mark of how little Loki actually wants to thwart Hel's plan for domination were it not for the opportunity to end the threat of the Snarl.

Again, I feel that if Hilgya had done something, it would have just been shown on panel, instead of teasing us. The only reason not to do so is to build tension, but I think most readers view it as such a low-stakes thing that will get resolved somehow that it’s not worth building said tension. The latter option I find more plausible, especially framed as Loki trying to help Hel our a little bit.

(Though I do agree it would be funny if everyone things the vampires are a threat when Hilgya dealt with them, you can still show us the reader and add to the humor with a bit of dramatic irony)

She.

"That" is valid assuming its antecedent is the escape and not the vampire.

Yes, I got here late enough that this is the only relevant comment I have.

But then my joke makes no sense! Escapes cannot bite people!

Sorry, i think the double entendre was already in the original joke.

I didn’t quite expect my post to generate this much commentary, but yes, “that” was referring to the fact of the vampire’s escape, not the vampire itself, and the use of bite was me attempting (and failing) to be clever.

And mangoes in syrup.

We done oranges, apples, grapefruits — whole and segments — pomegranates, greengages, ...

Fresh fruit not good enough for you, eh? Well, when you’re walking ’ome tonight and some great ’omicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch o loganberries, don’t come crying to me!

Hmm. Comedy in many forms (sketch, standup, sitcom, underrated films of the last 25 years). The TV series The Shield. Indie rock of the early 2000s. Classic Metroidvanias and JRPGs. Football. This comic. The post-punk era. Cocktails, tequila, whiskey, and beer. Performance endeavors. Cooking. Other things which might violate some of the board's discussion rules.

Those interests do sound like a nice break from the forum’s usual off-topics. I’m curious if you have any recommendations of indie rock from the early 2000s; I’ve been looking to expand my tastes in rock for a bit. Ditto for whiskey recommendations.

All this talk of video games makes me feel young! I do love learning about older games though, so I’m certainly enjoying it.

[Squire Doodad]

All this talk of video games makes me feel young! I do love learning about older games though, so I’m certainly enjoying it.

Back in my day, vidja gamames were played on systems big an' heavy enough you could knock someone out with them!

You fancy punk youngsters with your PS9 that's just a stand and a hard light projector have no idea what moving back in the '10s was like!