A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

[jaappleton]

As far as I can tell, it's the least of the subclass's problems, and I don't think anyone's been complaining about it all that much in comparison to other things. If they have, it's probably because it allows you to do things that in general, you just can't do, much less for one minute per long rest as a bonus action. Auto-succeeding on saving throws is, as far as I'm aware, entirely unique to this subclass. The closest equivalent is like, Diviners substituting their own saves. The only thing I can remember that matches the auto-hit is the Swashbuckler's lvl. 17 ability and Stroke of Luck at Rogue 20. And at least in theory, you can get a lot more free saves/auto-hits per long rest with Living Myth. Again, I agree with you, it's not all that much, and I think most people feel the same way, but if I'm wrong about the second thing, that's probably why, in addition to what Dork_Forge said. It's just one more great thing on top of a bunch more great things.

Yeah you turn a miss into a hit, which rules. But Paladins only get two attacks.

Even with a Scimitar of Speed, PAM, etc, that's still only 3 attacks in your turn.

[Sigreid]

I'm curious what you mean by this. Is it a concern this kind of build might encourage DMs not to let non-magic calming or persuasive attempts succeed when another party member has the subclass? Or that it might encourage players to leave it all to the one with the magic power for it? ... Something else?

More the first really. There's already a tendency among some to only let things be accomplished via magic. You see 8t a lot on this board when the caster superiority discussions pop up.

[Cybren]

Does no one else think that some of the eloquence mechanics are like, substantially more fiddly than 5e usually is? As a bonus action you get to force a save to give them disadvantage on the save? Free uses of bardic inspiration but you have a separate resource pool to use it? Odd.

The Oath of Heroism’s actual Oath totally blows, though.

[diplomancer]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

I think you are ignoring a lot of different ways of getting advantage, which is what makes this feature so good (and, in my opinion, better than the Oath of Vengeance channel divinity); you can shove your enemies, you can be invisible (D&D is a group game, after all), you can have the mounted combatant feat (Paladins get the most mileage out of it already), you can get a Familiar to give you the Help action, (but that is a considerable cost), and probably a ton of other ways I can't think of right now

[Dork_Forge]

snip

Undeniable Logic gives actual hp not temp.

[HappyDaze]

10 minute duration on the OaHeroism capstone is going to be weird. I can see some players trying to rush from encounter to encounter to maximize the 100 combat turns.

[diplomancer]

Undeniable Logic gives actual hp not temp.

Yes, I mixed it up with the Mighty Deed of the Paladin and then, realizing my mistake, deleted that part. My bad.

[nickl_2000]

I think you are ignoring a lot of different ways of getting advantage, which is what makes this feature so good (and, in my opinion, better than the Oath of Vengeance channel divinity); you can shove your enemies, you can be invisible (D&D is a group game, after all), you can have the mounted combatant feat (Paladins get the most mileage out of it already), you can get a Familiar to give you the Help action, (but that is a considerable cost), and probably a ton of other ways I can't think of right now

Fairie Fire, Help Action from allies, attacking someone prone, attacking someone asleep, attacking someone held, Guiding Bolt, one of the Battlemaster Maneuvers, frankly advantage isn't all that hard to get.

[diplomancer]

Before Xanathar's Hexblade, some people recommended getting 3 champion levels as a Paladin for the expanded crit range. THAT'S how powerful the Channel Divinity is; if I'm playing a Hero I will push for short rests almost as much as a warlock, and probably more than a monk.

[VonKaiserstein]

To me, this oath has the potential for the most ironic paladins out there. Brave Sir Robin, and Sir Lancelot from Monty Python's quest for the holy grail would be right at home here. Slaying their way into a peaceful village because they heard someone crying out for help, then waiting to escape until they could do it in a way that fit their particular heroic ... idiom.

The Tick could also easily be played this way, so self concerned with being a hero that they're almost as good as they think they are.

Or at their very best RP potential, they were the last survivor of a battle that resulted in a dead monster, and thus became a hero- now they're trying to stay one step ahead of the legend, although they really don't want anything to do with it. Think Ciaphas Caine from Warhammer 40k. Playing someone who has to be heroic so they can continue to be thought of as heroic is delightful! You'll buy the bar a merry round, roaring out a ribald ballad through your awful hangover. You'll publicly present the image of the party hard everyday I'm in town, until evil next raises its head while privately feeling like Slurms McKenzie, trapped by your reputation.

[Willie the Duck]

First, disappointed in myself for missing Oath of the Crown and Second, I was clear that the Aura idea was a very opinionated point of view of mine. I'd still say that 5/7 having an aura effect at 7th level is setting a bit of a precedent.

All those precedents seem to be pretty loose. One Ranger subclass and one fighter subclass get proficiency in Wisdom saves at 7th level where otherwise there might have been a ribbon ability. To me, at least, it seems clear that the designers are perfectly willing to inflate or deflate a at-given-level feature in order to make the overall archetype appropriately powered (in their mind).

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that.

They have an ability which gives advantage on grapple checks. Off the top of my head, the thing to do with this is make a half-elven paladin and grab shield master, prodigy (athletics), and elven accuracy and lobby your DM to rule that you get to make your slam check before you attack with your shield master ability. Rather specific and iffy, but then again this is UA, a place to experiment.

[LudicSavant]

Before Xanathar's Hexblade, some people recommended getting 3 champion levels as a Paladin for the expanded crit range. THAT'S how powerful the Channel Divinity is; if I'm playing a Hero I will push for short rests almost as much as a warlock, and probably more than a monk.

Over a 3 round fight with Extra Attack, the Channel Divinity will (on average) give you somewhere around 1/3rd to 2/3rds of an extra crit depending on your variables (e.g. whether you have Advantage, whether you have a bonus action attack, etc). At the cost of your bonus action. Once per short rest.

As such I'm rather curious what the cause for caps lock is. Care to elaborate?

They have an ability which gives advantage on grapple checks. Off the top of my head, the thing to do with this is make a half-elven paladin and grab shield master, prodigy (athletics), and elven accuracy and lobby your DM to rule that you get to make your slam check before you attack with your shield master ability. Rather specific and iffy, but then again this is UA, a place to experiment.

You can either get the expanded crit range, or the Advantage on shove/grapple. You can't get both at the same time.

[Willie the Duck]

You can either get the expanded crit range, or the Advantage on shove/grapple. You can't get both at the same time.

Hmm. Hadn't noticed that. Perhaps it is to prevent the setup I imagined. This makes me wonder if WotC doesn't think a warrior type giving itself advantage and then also having a great way to capitalize upon it has been that great. I certainly imagine that no few amount of people have given them feedback telling them that vengeance paladins and hexblades are OP.

[diplomancer]

Over a 3 round fight with Extra Attack, the Channel Divinity will (on average) give you somewhere around 1/3rd to 2/3rds of an extra crit depending on your variables (e.g. whether you have Advantage, whether you have a bonus action attack, etc). At the cost of your bonus action. Once per short rest.

As such I'm rather curious what the cause for caps lock is. Care to elaborate?

Caps lock is to point out that, if multi-classing to 3 levels of champion is a reasonable option (not necessarily the best option, but a good one nonetheless), getting that for the cost of a bonus action is very good. Contrast all the many different ways there are to get Advantage (the Oath of Vengeance CD) to how few ways there are to get an expanded crit-range.

I will always disagree with this whole "3 round fight" thing. In my experience 3 rounds is the bare minimum a combat where you would want to use your resources will last. I understand that this whole "3 rounds idea" comes not from experience but from the expected number of rounds 1 monster can last., though I'm willing to be corrected there.

If you have a 6 encounter days with 2 SR, you are expected to use this ability in half the combats, which you would save for the most difficult ones. It's very good, better than all the channel divinities of the PHB oaths (I do not have enough experience with the Xanathar oaths to contrast it to). So, for half of the day and for the cost of 1 bonus action per combat, you will have what would take you 3 levels of Champion otherwise.

[Protolisk]

Heroism Paladins also get Haste, freeing up their allied Wizards or Sorcerers to use their concentrations on something else instead. That means more attacks per turn and higher AC. Vengeance paladins get it, too, though.

Vengeance also gets their Channel Divinity to target a single target for free advantage on a single target(to stack crits), while Heroism paladins get this 19-20 range (to stack crits). Each in a vacuum provide fairly similar crit chances (Advantage means about 9.75 chance per hit to crit, 19-20 is a flat 10% chance per hit to crit). Vengeance is also more about chasing down a single target so it can't escape at level 7, Heroism paladins are all about dealing killing blows or criting anyway. In order to get reliable kills this way, you'd need to be targeting the close to dead, or just outright weak enemies.

Heroism feels more about slaying the masses instead of going for the big guy, but they are still a Paladin, so big guys aren't that difficult either. Conjure Volley only increases the "I need to kill many enemies really fast" idea they seem to be going for. Lots of speed and movement boosting spells.

They also both get an easy reaction at level 15, but Vengeance is easier to obtain, as it is whenever their target makes an attack, the paladin gets a free reaction attack. Heroism still needs their enemies to attack the paladin themselves, and needs to miss even with the charisma based "shield" effect to attack back. It's more restrictive in a different way.

To me, it looks like really similar to Vengeance, but without the whole "vengeance" thing.

[LudicSavant]

Caps lock is to point out that, if multi-classing to 3 levels of champion is a reasonable option (not necessarily the best option, but a good one nonetheless), getting that for the cost of a bonus action is very good.

You say that almost like you're taking those 3 levels just for Improved Critical.

You get more than an expanded crit range (all day, with no action cost) from 3 levels in Champion. You also get +1 AC (fighting style), Second Wind, and Action Surge.

It's very good, better than all the channel divinities of the PHB oaths

Vow of Enmity not only improves your crit rate (having Advantage nearly doubles it, or triples with Elven Accuracy), it also makes you much more likely to hit. And it too is a bonus action.

[hellgrammite]

Reskinning the Paladin one slightly from Heroism to Oath of Egomania. Should work nicely for a Templar for an upcoming Dark Sun campaign.

[Spiritchaser]

On its own, I don’t think the CD is necessarily better than Vow of enmity, but there are many ways to create advantage. There are relatively few ways to expand crit range.

The potential issue with the expanded crit range is that it further strengthens builds which are already relatively strong.

Most of those do come online later, and it might be ok, but it certainly does need some thought.

[diplomancer]

You say that almost like you're taking those 3 levels just for Improved Critical.

You get more than an expanded crit range (all day, with no action cost) from 3 levels in Champion. You also get +1 AC (fighting style), Second Wind, and Action Surge.

If you take 3 levels of Champion you are doing it for the expanded crit range. You get other good things on the way, true, but you are doing it for that, since that's all you get at level 3 Champion.

I agree that it is not as powerful as the Champion ability, but it is worth at least 1.5 levels of multi-classing (half of the combats- maybe more depending on how many short rests you can squeeze in, one bonus action per combat cost).

Let's try to think of this another way; what spell level would it be to have a bonus action, non-concentration spell that gives you an expanded crit range? How good would a feat be?

If I remember correctly, there are two magic items that give you an expanded crit-range; one is legendary, the other is an artifact.

On its own, I don’t think the CD is necessarily better than Vow of enmity, but there are many ways to create advantage. There are relatively few ways to expand crit range.

The potential issue with the expanded crit range is that it further strengthens builds which are already relatively strong.

Most of those do come online later, and it might be ok, but it certainly does need some thought.

Yes, that's my point. Getting advantage is easy. Getting an extended crit-range is very hard and costly (though now that Xanathar is out, far less costly... still -some DMs ban hexblade, some players find hexblade cheesy and don't like to get it, and some of those who find hexblade ok still don't like the fluff of mixing warlock and paladin). Vow of Enmity also only applies to one enemy.

[strangebloke]

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.

Ah I missed that.

But yeah, we're getting to the point where there's almost too many means of getting tHP. A glamor bard, heroism paladin, fighter with inspiring leader, and tempest barb are going to be really struggling with how much overlap they have. And that's ignoring 'selfish' tHp generators like Warlocks.

Anybody else thinking that a Heroism Pally and a Wolf Totem Barb are possible the best melee buddy cops ever? Paladin boosts barb saves, grants tHp, which the barb effectively doubles. Barb grants advantage and has higher baseline damage but paladin deals with crowds better and can nuke single targets.

[LudicSavant]

I will always disagree with this whole "3 round fight" thing. In my experience 3 rounds is the bare minimum

My experience differs, with even Deadly++ encounters with multiple creatures frequently going down in 3 rounds or less to veteran players.

My experience is also that even when they go longer, the first few rounds tend to be the most important. There is a reason why optimizers emphasize the importance of initiative so much.

Let's try to think of this another way; what spell level would it be to have a bonus action, non-concentration spell that gives you an expanded crit range? How good would a feat be?

A feat that gave you 1/SR expanded crit range for a minute for a bonus action would not be a very good feat.

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way: Make a Paladin of Heroism build that you feel is too powerful, then we can see how it compares to other builds competing for its job and determine whether it's better, worse, or comparable.

[diplomancer]

My experience differs, with even Deadly++ encounters
with multiple creatures frequently going down in 3 rounds or less to veteran players.

My experience is also that even when they go longer, the first few rounds tend to be the most important. There is a reason why optimizers emphasize the importance of initiative so much.



A feat that gave you 1/SR expanded crit range for a minute for a bonus action would not be a very good feat.

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way, and you actually show us a build with what you consider to be overpowered damage output for a Paladin using this CD, then compare it to other builds competing for the same job?

I think the difference in our perspectives is that you are thinking of the mathematics of improved crit range in the abstract (which I agree are not that impressive on it's own), while I am considering it for a Paladin (who loves crits more than anyone else except high level rogues, who have less chances of getting them anyway) that optimizes for it by using one of the numerous ways of getting advantage.

Also, it is not my position that this is massively overpowered. It is my position that it is better than the other channel divinities, once you factor in how relatively easy it is to get advantage as the game progresses.

[Willie the Duck]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

[jaappleton]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

A VERY good point. Its why despite Vengeance being so good, I never pick it: Sure I go HAM on one enemy, then what? Its why I prefer Devotion's CD > Vengeance, but Devotions is an action to activate (Which seriously sucks for action economy).

This? There's a decent chance it doesn't proc at all during a fight... which sucks. It does.
But if it does? Oooooh, you really laid the hurt on somebody.

[diplomancer]

Getting Advantage is easy. Getting an extended crit-range is not. So, a channel divinity that grants you advantage against one enemy is worse than a channel divinity that gives you an extended crit-range. That is the extent of my argument in this thread (i.e, that having advantage AND an extended crit-range- easy to get with this Paladin- is better than just having advantage... yes, it's obvious, but still), and I see no need of developing a build to prove that.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Wow, I need my DM to let me change from Glamour to Eloquence.

I worked hard to get the same abilities the Eloquence gives for my Glamour bard.



He agreed, not to write is as Homebrew in D&D Beyond :)

[LudicSavant]

I think the difference in our perspectives is that you are thinking of the mathematics of improved crit range in the abstract (which I agree are not that impressive on it's own), while I am considering it for a Paladin (who loves crits more than anyone else except high level rogues, who have less chances of getting them anyway) that optimizes for it by using one of the numerous ways of getting advantage.

Considering it for a Paladin that optimizes for it is exactly what I've been asking you to do.

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way: Make a Paladin of Heroism build that you feel is too powerful, then we can see how it compares to other builds competing for its job and determine whether it's better, worse, or comparable.

[Spiritchaser]

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way, and you actually show us a build with what you consider to be overpowered damage output for a Paladin using this CD, then compare it to other builds competing for the same job?

I’ll jump in here with two builds, though given that the intangibles may be more important than the numbers, I’m not sure what it’ll prove.

Half Elven Dex Sorcadin with EA and running shadow blade. Level 20 vs AC 20

Vengence/Divine Soul vs. Heroism/Divine Soul (I like DS for this because thaumaturgy and shadow blade go rather well together)

I’ve done this with Paladin 12/8, though 8/12 would be great as well.

5th level spell for shadow blade, dim light or darkness, with the legendary strike up. Quickened GFB or BB.

The vengence sorcadin gets 101.4 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 37% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (the crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)
The Heroism sorcadin gets 111.8 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 61% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (The crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)

A 10% damage bonus is a pretty big deal on its own, about the same as adding Elven accuracy to a build like this...and that extra opportunity for crit smites is likely worth more than that, however:

It takes an extra round to fully come on line, a round where that vengence sorcadin can be murdering something with a quickened GFB

It eliminates the backup option to generate advantage that the vengence sorcadin has through vow of enmity if you’re fighting outside during the day.

I really think that the 10%, plus extra crits, while very strong, aren’t worth the price of admission on their own.

Now: add in the control from mighty deed and this starts to look a whole lot less ambiguous. You’ll be doing so much damage, and gritting so much, that you’ll likely proc fear on most rounds.

[Protolisk]

A VERY good point. Its why despite Vengeance being so good, I never pick it: Sure I go HAM on one enemy, then what? Its why I prefer Devotion's CD > Vengeance, but Devotions is an action to activate (Which seriously sucks for action economy).

This? There's a decent chance it doesn't proc at all during a fight... which sucks. It does.
But if it does? Oooooh, you really laid the hurt on somebody.

Between this issue (multi-target) and the fact at advantage is easy to get (many spells, making an enemy go prone, even Vengeance could just use Hold Person instead of their own vow) the Heroism CD looks a lot better.

[strangebloke]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

You can precast it, it lasts for the whole fight, it doesn't compete with spells like hunter's mark (which is a big thing for vPally's) and its much easier for a heroism paladin to get advantage than it is for the vengeance pally to get increased crit range.

I see it as more generally robust ability. Obviously the vPally has higher white-room damage but with the support of the party that difference will be less. For example from levels 3-4 the wizard can grant advantage on functionally all attacks.

Hah. For a brutal low-level campaign, try a a vHuman hPaladin with GWM, working with a wizard.