The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Aug 2016

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    The RAW is clear that you need a free hand to hold a focus and that that hand can also be used to do somatic components while being used. The reason it needs to clarify you need a free hand is to specify you need to be holding the focus rather than just have it on your person. I don't agree that the Sage Advice contradicts RAW at all so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Also your concern about the specific wording. The SAC goes on to give an example for a mace and shield wielding cleric. If casting a spell with a somatic and material component they can cast while keeping hold of both ('If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand' - note no mention of spending three turns doffing, casting then donning again). If a spell with only a somatic component they need to put away either mace or shield as they can no longer channel the somatic through their focus. I really don't see there's any room for argument about the intention here.
    Last edited by Contrast; 2019-09-21 at 06:24 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

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    Feb 2019

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Referring to Sage Advice for RAI is like hunting a skeletal horse for a prime steak: It's just not going to work.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    The RAW is clear that you need a free hand to hold a focus and that that hand can also be used to do somatic components while being used. The reason it needs to clarify you need a free hand is to specify you need to be holding the focus rather than just have it on your person. I don't agree that the Sage Advice contradicts RAW at all so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Also your concern about the specific wording. The SAC goes on to give an example for a mace and shield wielding cleric. If casting a spell with a somatic and material component they can cast while keeping hold of both ('If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand' - note no mention of spending three turns doffing, casting then donning again). If a spell with only a somatic component they need to put away either mace or shield as they can no longer channel the somatic through their focus. I really don't see there's any room for argument about the intention here.
    I agree.

    @JeremyECrawford
    A hand with a material component, including a spellcasting focus, can perform somatic components (PH, 203).

    This makes sense for warcaster as well.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    And the reason why it's counterintuitive that you can't cast S-no-M spells while holding a couple of wands is that, ordinarily, casting SM spells restricts you more than casting S spells. Nobody would expect that adding a component would ever make it easier to cast a spell.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Indeed. My group doesn't stress that detail. While we adhere to most rules, we tweak things occasionally in favor of story and coolness.

    But I know some people are more interested in the mechanical details.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And the reason why it's counterintuitive that you can't cast S-no-M spells while holding a couple of wands is that, ordinarily, casting SM spells restricts you more than casting S spells. Nobody would expect that adding a component would ever make it easier to cast a spell.
    The 'fluff justification' (AKA handwave) is that SM spells involve simple manipulation of the focus or mat components, while S-only spells require intricate hand movements like finger waggling or other complicated hand gestures.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

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    Feb 2019

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Slight off-topic, since the OP was looking for what is, but at our table we just take the required components to be a minimum.
    So if you want you can add a M component to a S only spell (which would let you use a foci), or a V component to any spell you want to shout, but if it's got a listed component you need at least that.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    The 'fluff justification' (AKA handwave) is that SM spells involve simple manipulation of the focus or mat components, while S-only spells require intricate hand movements like finger waggling or other complicated hand gestures.
    If it were just a simple manipulation it would just be a VM spell, like Suggestion, instead of VSM. The S implies some amount of gesturing in addition to just accessing the component.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    If it were just a simple manipulation it would just be a VM spell, like Suggestion, instead of VSM. The S implies some amount of gesturing in addition to just accessing the component.
    So you have to wave the component around instead of just holding it... that doesn't change much.

    M-only spell is holding your phone in your hand, SM spell is writting a text on a phone with single hand, and S-only spell is trying to communicate with someone using sign language... impossible to do while holding a phone at the same time.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Sep 2015

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    So you have to wave the component around instead of just holding it... that doesn't change much.

    M-only spell is holding your phone in your hand, SM spell is writting a text on a phone with single hand, and S-only spell is trying to communicate with someone using sign language... impossible to do while holding a phone at the same time.
    and of course all S/M spells have different S components, waving the fingers instead of waving a focus, when you use a Metrial component instead of a focus.


    S components are abstract, but it seems weird logic that every caster learns two S-casting version of any spell with an M component.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Mar 2011

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    and of course all S/M spells have different S components, waving the fingers instead of waving a focus, when you use a Metrial component instead of a focus.


    S components are abstract, but it seems weird logic that every caster learns two S-casting version of any spell with an M component.
    You learn the waving-around-the-actual-material-component version (or flicking/pointing/raising-to-the-sky/whatever). Having the Spellcasting Focus class feature means you can substitute an appropriate focus for the mat component (provided it has an unlisted cost, isn't consumed during the casting, etc. etc.), which is likely done by waving (etc.) said focus around using similar motions.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2019-09-22 at 03:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Nov 2018

    Default Re: How does war caster work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Sleet Storm can break concentration without any damage involved.

    Yes, there are other ways to provoke OAs. Polearm Master feat and cavalier fighter's Hold the Line, for example.
    I believe Eathquake can also force concentration checks as well, although with more collateral damage. Keep sleet storm in mind against Wizards and Liches who like to cast Invulnerability.

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