OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

I'm partial to Thor's Nuts and Troll Spit myself.

Thar names sound disgustin', but thar better tha' human beer any day.

On the other hand, it would be remiss to disregard the famous packaged foods of Dwarven culture.

Thor's aching funyuns!

[Jasdoif]

I bet those who don’t worship Thor have different drinks (they still drink beer of course, lots of it, it’s only different types and names), the Odinites drink One-Eyed Raven’s Stonecold beer, I don’t know what the Friggers and Freyrites drink, any suggestions?

Freya worshippers probably have Burmecian Brandy, actually.

[Squire Doodad]

Thanks, because despite the fact that these names should be ridiculous I can’t imagine the dwarves have their beers have ridiculously long names.

I bet those who don’t worship Thor have different drinks (they still drink beer of course, lots of it, it’s only different types and names), the Odinites drink One-Eyed Raven’s Stonecold beer, I don’t know what the Friggers and Freyrites drink, any suggestions?

Keep in mind it's a rule of thumb and not set in stone, things are really more based on how the rhythm works. If you have a sentence for the title but it's an actual sentence and doesn't take forever to say, that's probably fine too.

Depending on how thematic vs punny you want to be, I'd say Frigg's people drink either Beau Blitzer or The Best Unspeakable Brew. Freya and Frey are prosperity and love and all that, right? I'd imagine it's a harvest season based name then. Like Pumpkin Noir or something, though that might be a wine.

Of course, you could say that they just drink a strong hard beer, which would probably be more stone based. Like Amethyst Gleam, or Stibnite Whiskey (disclaimer: I know nothing about alcohol types). (But not Tungsten Merlot. That's a bad idea.)

Also, I'm putting a link to this whole convo in my extended sig XD

[bunsen_h]

That's not how it works for the original scene, though. There we were shown scenes that contradicted what Hilgya was saying. Hence, it is clear that the panels themselves are true, while Hilgya's narration is not trustworthy. Hilgya's a priori untrustworthy words about a forced marriage were confirmed by the panel clearly depicting an unhappy Hilgya marrying at crossbow point.

Given the gross inconsistency between the images and her words -- and given my experience of real-life people who have that kind of inconsistency between fact and description -- I frankly don't have any faith in what she's said about things. She's an extremely unreliable narrator. And we also don't know how accurate those images are: are they a faithful rendering of events, or are they what she remembers? I've seen someone who has flipped from "you're wonderful" to "you're responsible for everything wrong" assert that really, they never liked/loved that person. And, after the fact, that was an accurate description of what they remembered. I wouldn't be surprised if other people who were witnesses to those events were to unanimously declare that Hilgya was doing everything she could to cause the wedding to happen, and that the "forced" aspect was pure revisionism.

[The_Weirdo]

Given the gross inconsistency between the images and her words -- and given my experience of real-life people who have that kind of inconsistency between fact and description -- I frankly don't have any faith in what she's said about things. She's an extremely unreliable narrator. And we also don't know how accurate those images are: are they a faithful rendering of events, or are they what she remembers? I've seen someone who has flipped from "you're wonderful" to "you're responsible for everything wrong" assert that really, they never liked/loved that person. And, after the fact, that was an accurate description of what they remembered. I wouldn't be surprised if other people who were witnesses to those events were to unanimously declare that Hilgya was doing everything she could to cause the wedding to happen, and that the "forced" aspect was pure revisionism.

By that logic, there may also never have been a wedding. And she may also have given a lot of riches to her clan, after thanking them for being so kind to her and for allowing her to go be an adventurer on their dime. Or Hilgya may be a Polymorphed tree that wants to destroy the dwarves because they are genocidal towards trees. Or a myriad of other things. Maybe Kudzu is actually a polyed thi, redheaded lab assistant that can usually only say "meep".

[Squire Doodad]

By that logic, there may also never have been a wedding. And she may also have given a lot of riches to her clan, after thanking them for being so kind to her and for allowing her to go be an adventurer on their dime. Or Hilgya may be a Polymorphed tree that wants to destroy the dwarves because they are genocidal towards trees. Or a myriad of other things. Maybe Kudzu is actually a polyed thi, redheaded lab assistant that can usually only say "meep".

I think you are extrapolating too much here.

[The_Weirdo]

I think you are extrapolating too much here.

I think I'm not extrapolating enough. Maybe Hilgya is the snarl.

[hroþila]

Given the gross inconsistency between the images and her words -- and given my experience of real-life people who have that kind of inconsistency between fact and description -- I frankly don't have any faith in what she's said about things. She's an extremely unreliable narrator. And we also don't know how accurate those images are: are they a faithful rendering of events, or are they what she remembers? I've seen someone who has flipped from "you're wonderful" to "you're responsible for everything wrong" assert that really, they never liked/loved that person. And, after the fact, that was an accurate description of what they remembered. I wouldn't be surprised if other people who were witnesses to those events were to unanimously declare that Hilgya was doing everything she could to cause the wedding to happen, and that the "forced" aspect was pure revisionism.

You're not supposed to trust her words in that comic - that's the joke. But it only works if the pictures themselves are accurate. Otherwise there's no joke.

They're not mere memories, they're flashbacks to the actual thing.

[The_Weirdo]

You're not supposed to trust her words in that comic - that's the joke. But it only works if the pictures themselves are accurate. Otherwise there's no joke.

They're not mere memories, they're flashbacks to the actual thing.

Not only "otherwise there's no joke", otherwise a huge chunk of her entire history is completely unknowable.

[Squire Doodad]

You're not supposed to trust her words in that comic - that's the joke. But it only works if the pictures themselves are accurate. Otherwise there's no joke.

They're not mere memories, they're flashbacks to the actual thing.

I'd pretty much go with that: Hilgya's words are completely inaccurate and biased. The flashbacks are only showing small scenes of what happened, but for what they do show they are reasonably accurate.

[Rrmcklin]

You're not supposed to trust her words in that comic - that's the joke. But it only works if the pictures themselves are accurate. Otherwise there's no joke.

They're not mere memories, they're flashbacks to the actual thing.

My interpretation as well. Hilgya was, in fact, forced into marriage at crossbow point, and that's terrible. She also attempted to kill a man who was too stupid/nice to understand that was happening instead of just leaving like she could, and that's also terrible.

Hilgya is both a victim of something terrible that shouldn't happen to anyone and also a terrible person herself. These facts do not contradict one another.

[F.Harr]

Oh, that is the absolute best. And I liked Kudzu's lines. "Gwoo." "Gla!" Perfect. :)

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think I'm not extrapolating enough. Maybe Hilgya is the snarl.

no tht's silly.
Hilgya is redcloaks neice!

[Liquor Box]

My interpretation as well. Hilgya was, in fact, forced into marriage at crossbow point, and that's terrible. She also attempted to kill a man who was too stupid/nice to understand that was happening instead of just leaving like she could, and that's also terrible.

Hilgya is both a victim of something terrible that shouldn't happen to anyone and also a terrible person herself. These facts do not contradict one another.

Agreed. I think this probably applies to most people who are evil in the comic and out, something bad in their past made them that way. Didn't the Giant say that the reason he didn't say more about Belkar's backstory was that he didn't want people going through contortions to justify his actions (like they do for Hilgya)?

[The_Weirdo]

no tht's silly.
Hilgya is redcloaks neice!

Redcloak is Hilgya's niece!

[Kantaki]

no tht's silly.
Hilgya is redcloaks neice!

But Wrongeye's niece is the Snarl.

[Teasenitryn]

Ok, so I am not certain that this topic is the one to delurk and jump in with both feet on after some fifteen years reading both comic and forums but eh, rogue.

So my views over the last however long condensed so if any of you want to lynch me, you at least know what for ;), the dwarves are stuck with a bum deal that one of their gods gave them a way around that may not even have started that restrictive but eh, like trees it gets that way. Ivan *probably* didn't deserve being poisoned (though no context, I would bet I can write a story around everything we saw him saying that puts those panels in a negative light), his clan *probably* deserved to lose everything at the races (sorry, crossbow marriage, if I believe what Ivan said to her I believe Hilgya married under crossbow point) but were at least left with expensive looking armour so they could sell it or slay a dragon (Valhalla if they die so win/win) or whatever else. Meanwhile the first person she let herself think she might like trampled all over her heart then tried to marry her because BABY!

Bear in mind also that Rich has views about 'always evil' and characters being more complex than that.

With that all in mind, I delurked because of this whole custody and 'Hilgya is evil and will do who knows what to the kid' thing. I feel, quite strongly, that people extrapolating that there is no evidence that she hasn't harmed Kudzu and won't in the future for whatever reason are being, to be honest, quite disrespectful to Rich's storytelling. In my view there is plenty of evidence that Hilgya has been a good mother whatever you think of her as a person outside of this and it is in everything that people have pointed out about Kudzu's interactions and reactions in general. He is young, but babies are not that old when they become aware of those who look after them and those they are fearful of and I am not seeing anything that suggests anything is amiss.

Kudzu generally is very in tune with Hilgya's emotions, he is smiling when she is neutral, frowny when she is tense, at ease with people that she gives him to and trusts to (Sigdi earlier, this page, Durkon), definitely not at ease when there was something wrong with his mother. ok so this is a stick story but it is a stick story that his actions have had effort and thought put into and everything that we have seen tells me there is a good bond between them, Durkon has also been around them and does not feel there is anything amiss other than he will want contact (something that may not be the case had Kudzu been in any way fearful and not wanting to go back to Hilya when someone else held him). It is possible that Hilgya is a terrible person, personally I believe she was stuck in a screwed up situation that was not her fault and overreacted in a way that in our own world is very excessive (bearing in mind our world had neither liches nor creatures whose sole purpose is for the real people to level up) but there is no evidence for, and I believe quite a bit against, any notion that she has or plans to harm that child or bring him up in any way that would put his afterlife at risk to the best of her knowledge and world view.

[The_Weirdo]

Snip.

To be sure, it was Hilgya's clan, not Ivan's, that got (deservedly) bankrupted. Aside from that, I very much agree with you.

[Teasenitryn]

To be sure, it was Hilgya's clan, not Ivan's, that got (deservedly) bankrupted. Aside from that, I very much agree with you.

Ah fair enough, knew there was something I needed to check this side of a night shift, and yeah that money pretty much came from the crossbow marriage, I can see a justification there in all honesty.

[The_Weirdo]

Ah fair enough, knew there was something I needed to check this side of a night shift, and yeah that money pretty much came from the crossbow marriage, I can see a justification there in all honesty.

It's more likely that the Firehelms go into the marriage (by which I mean, of course, force an innocent into a marriage at crossbow point) with the money and Ivan's clan does so with status.

[Dr.Zero]

instead of just leaving like she could, and that's also terrible.

This too was discussed for ages. "Just leaving like she could". Sure, she could ran away, being destitute, in a foreign country, where foreign, dangerous, species and random encounters are all over the place, shunned by her own people.
Not so long ago, IRL many women tolerated abusive behaviours from their husbands just because, you know, the alternative was exactly that, minus the foreign species and random encounters (ok, maybe the dangerous random encounters were there, too)

But, without talking about RL, just give a look to D's memories: he was already a cleric of Thor[1], and being kicked out of his land was the worst day of his life.

The "just leaving as she could", makes things too easy. Sure, if you're an animal and are trapped in a bear trap, you could gnaw off your leg to get free[2], nonetheless that is not "just leaving", it is a terrible proof of how bad is your situation.

But, hey, we debated that in all ways, even talking about slavery and the right of slaves to rebel using violence which might involve even the "innocents". Still we didn't find an agreement, so instead of debate it to no end, just cut off the "just leaving like she could" and substitute it with "accepting to lose everything and start from scratch in a foreign place, between foreign people, maybe endangering herself, like she could", would you?

Because I'm perfectly fine in admitting that a Good character should have done that, and that proves she is not Good, as long as you can admit it was not "just leaving", and it is a damn great self sacrifice.

[1] If I got it right, H became a cleric of Loki after she went in human lands.
[2] Some animals do that for real, usually it doesn't end well for them, nonetheless, if they are trapped and starving, that is their last desperate try to get free. As you can read for example here

[Wizard_Lizard]

But Wrongeye's niece is the Snarl.

no.
Wrongeye s the snarl's neice.
Hilgya is redcloas neice
Kudzu is the mitd
an the mitd is xykons uncle.
Nad Xykon is the snarls half brother.

Also Australia is flat the moon does not exist and the earth landing was fake.

[Liquor Box]

This too was discussed for ages. "Just leaving like she could". Sure, she could ran away, being destitute, in a foreign country, where foreign, dangerous, species and random encounters are all over the place, shunned by her own people.
Not so long ago, IRL many women tolerated abusive behaviours from their husbands just because, you know, the alternative was exactly that, minus the foreign species and random encounters (ok, maybe the dangerous random encounters were there, too)

But, without talking about RL, just give a look to D's memories: he was already a cleric of Thor[1], and being kicked out of his land was the worst day of his life.

The "just leaving as she could", makes things too easy. Sure, if you're an animal and are trapped in a bear trap, you could gnaw off your leg to get free[2], nonetheless that is not "just leaving", it is a terrible proof of how bad is your situation.

But, hey, we debated that in all ways, even talking about slavery and the right of slaves to rebel using violence which might involve even the "innocents". Still we didn't find an agreement, so instead of debate it to no end, just cut off the "just leaving like she could" and substitute it with "accepting to lose everything and start from scratch in a foreign place, between foreign people, maybe endangering herself, like she could", would you?

Because I'm perfectly fine in admitting that a Good character should have done that, and that proves she is not Good, as long as you can admit it was not "just leaving", and it is a damn great self sacrifice.

[1] If I got it right, H became a cleric of Loki after she went in human lands.
[2] Some animals do that for real, usually it doesn't end well for them, nonetheless, if they are trapped and starving, that is their last desperate try to get free. As you can read for example here

It's not clear how much of a burden 'just leaving' would have been, but I think you are exaggerating it here. As a relatively high level character, I doubt she would have been at much risk in human lands, and I doubt she would have been destitute. She would have had to leave Dwarven lands, but given that it is the dwarves who endorse shotgun marriages perhaps that would be pleasing for her.

Anyway, no matter how much of a burden it was, it does not justify seeking to kill your husband (unless, perhaps, he were the actual captor).

[hroþila]

It doesn't justify murder, but people tend to talk about exile like it's nothing. There's a very good reason why it was used as judicial punishment in many societies, after all.

[diplomancer]

In my experience, good mothers don't want to kill a kid's father, much less actually kill them. YMMV, I suppose.

[Dr.Zero]

As a relatively high level character

As I stated above, AFAIU, she became a cleric of Loki in human lands (technically she could be a cleric of Loki without grasping his wisdom? Or changed god? Maybe, but it seems a stretch to me)
But these, anyway, are more recent informations, even without them I don't see a high level cleric being forced in a marriage, leaving aside needing to poison food, if really willing to kill someone, when there are more effective ways for a high, or medium, or even mid-to-low level cleric to kill people. By the way, ways more subtle than one that can be detected by a level 0 cleric spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok, so I am not certain that this topic is the one to delurk and jump in with both feet on after some fifteen years reading both comic and forums but eh, rogue.

Welcome! Nice first post! :)

It doesn't justify murder, but people tend to talk about exile like it's nothing. There's a very good reason why it was used as judicial punishment in many societies, after all.

Yes, and as we later learn, Durkon's exile wasn't just from his homeland; it was also severence from a loving and caring extended family. Hilgya's exile seems to have been from a less loving and less caring family.

[Petrocorus]

It's not clear how much of a burden 'just leaving' would have been, but I think you are exaggerating it here. As a relatively high level character, I doubt she would have been at much risk in human lands, and I doubt she would have been destitute. She would have had to leave Dwarven lands, but given that it is the dwarves who endorse shotgun marriages perhaps that would be pleasing for her.

Anyway, no matter how much of a burden it was, it does not justify seeking to kill your husband (unless, perhaps, he were the actual captor).

The point of several people, from what i gather, is that she finally left the exact same way and about the same time she would have if she hadn't try to kill her husband.

Trying to kill her husband end up being useless and didn't improve her situation or her ability to leave.
It would have if it had worked, she could have pretend it was a disease or something. But the success or the failure doesn't change the morality of the attempt.

[diplomancer]

I believe Hilgya's evil actions attract more criticism than other characters' evil actions (like the aforementioned V and Belkar torture of the kobold) is that her evil actions are more "realistic". People who use mind-control to force others to do their bidding, or who kill hundreds of thousands of individuals with one action, are far less common than abusive mothers/fathers/partners. V's horrible actions of genocide and mind-control do not strike as close as someone who uses violence to deal with their interpersonal relationships.

So, people's fully justified moral indignation towards Hilgya is a tribute to the giant's ability to create a fully believable, not-over-the-top evil character.

[Peelee]

It's more likely that the Firehelms go into the marriage (by which I mean, of course, force an innocent into a marriage at crossbow point) with the money and Ivan's clan does so with status.

Hilgya specifically mentions that Ivan was part of a highborn clan, so it looks like the implication is the Firehelms are beneath Ivan's clan and the arranged marriage was for money and/or status for them. And, given what we know of Ivan, it's not hard to imagine that they paid another clan to take him.