Wu jen Jade Phoenix Mage Body Outside Body build help

[Elves]

Edit: see post #53 for thread summary

I need to make a high level Jade Phoenix Mage NPC. Because I want them to have an interesting shtick, I really like this build idea for a wu jen gish who uses persistent Body Outside Body with White Raven Tactics. Archmage's SLA ability plus Supernatural Transformation feat from SS gives an infinite shadow clone army.

The character is supposed to be the most powerful of the current 12 Jade Phoenix Mages in the Nine Swords implied setting (which will be getting more detail in the project in my sig).

He should also be able to use the other wu jen JPM trick of Transcend Mortality>Emerald Immolation, which mandates 10 levels of JPM, leaving us with the build stub wu jen 5/warblade 1/JPM10/Archmage 1/other+3.

The build needs a way of getting Persistent Spell onto Body Outside Body (cast from a normal slot to initiate the combo, since SLA/Su abilities can't be metamagicked). There must a better way of doing this than spending four whole feats on metamagic reduction feats just to get it down to a 9th level slot. The normal gish workaround of Arcane Disciple for Divine Power doesn't work due to not applying to the clone army.


So here's the order: for this build, with 3 free levels, arbitrary wealth, and around 4-6 feats to spend, how would you most effectively go about persisting Body Outside Body while still maintaining 2/3 BAB and 3/3 arcane casting?

It would be great but far from essential to also be able to persist Transcend Mortality.


General build advice also welcome. Thanks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Naenhoon illumian, probably? Do you need your JPM to be any specific race?

[Elves]

I considered that but I don't think you can use nightsticks without actually having Turn Undead since it says four more uses.

Is there a way of getting Turn Undead without spending a level, or a class with Turn Undead and arcane CL at 1st level? If so, naenhoon in a heartbeat.

Race can be any. My ideal flavor choice is lesser air genasi, but any race is fine.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is there a way of getting Turn Undead without spending a level, or a class with Turn Undead and arcane CL at 1st level? If so, naenhoon in a heartbeat.

Sacred Exorcist gives Turn Undead at level one, and advances arcane casting. Significant skill requirements, but dismissal is on the Wu Jen list, so that's pretty doable.


Edit: The other way to get persistomancy is Spelldancer, which grants way too much metamagic for a one-level dip, but is hard to enter, due to the high feat requirements (Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility).


Edit two: WRT is a third-level maneuver, so you need IL 5 to take it, which means eight levels of non-initiating classes before crusader 1. Since you're also taking ten levels of JPM and a level of Archmage, you're essentially taking twelve levels after 8th level. You'd be locked into wu jen 5-6/ruathar 1-2/sacred exorcist 1/crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 10/archmage 1, which gets you +16 base attack, but only with fractional base attack bonus (the extra quarter base attack from Ruathar is crucial).

[Elves]

Edit:

WRT is a third-level maneuver, so you need IL 5 to take it, which means eight levels of non-initiating classes before crusader 1.

Ah, jeez, you're right. Martial Study (WRT) might be the simplest way then.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm a novice at building gishes, so I'll ask:

between archmage 2nd, spellsword 1st, and abjchamp 1st, all of which have the necessary BAB and CL, which would you call the first and second most beneficial for this build?

Well, see my edit, but in general, I'd rank them archmage 2 = abjurant champion 1 > spellsword 1, though AC does cost an extra feat. The free Extend is nice, the High Arcana is also nice.


Martial Study is worse than taking crusader, because you're only getting one WRT per encounter, instead of one every few rounds, and far fewer maneuvers in general. I'd definitely consider the Ruathar build.

[Elves]

I was suggesting taking Martial Study (WRT) in addition to the crusader dip, at a later level. The benefit would be getting to take archmage 2nd and spellsword 1st (or abjchamp if using spelldancer since they share prereqs) instead of ruathar. Effectively, trading one feat slot for +.5 BAB, one High Arcana, -10% ASF, and one more maneuver known, which I think is not a terrible trade.


With fractional BAB the spelldancer build could also work: WJ5/spelldancer1/ruathar2/crusader1/JPM10/archmage1.


Edit: Sacred Exorcist also opens the way for Trickery Devotion, which increases the clone fun by quite a bit.

Edit2: Speaking of feats, there's also Extend Supernatural Ability, though unfortunately it's only 1/day instead of the SLA metamagic feats which are 3/day. Wonder why that is.

[ben-zayb]

Sorry for the doublepost, but new question: is persistomancy even necessary for the Body Outside Body chain, or just convenient?

Duplicates created by duplicates using your (Su) ability don't vanish when the duplicate who summoned them does, right? Putting aside the chaining, if you simply cast Body Outside Body, your duplicates will last until the spell ends even if you die, unless I'm wrong.

If so, the longevity of the initial duplicates doesn't matter that much since they only have the Su ability 2/day whereas you can start the chain as many times per day as you have spell slots or scrolls.

Technically, the Generation 2 clone/s won't vanish, but you'd have to make your Gen 1 clone/s order the Gen 2 clone/s to follow you instead. Same goes for Gen X clones to Gen X+1 clones.

Since you are abusing BoB, I wholeheartedly recommend getting at least 2 Incantatrix levels so that your clones can (ab)use Cooperative Metamagic for your own Persistomancy.

[Elves]

Technically, the Generation 2 clone/s won't vanish, but you'd have to make your Gen 1 clone/s order the Gen 2 clone/s to follow you instead. Same goes for Gen X clones to Gen X+1 clones.

Since you are abusing BoB, I wholeheartedly recommend getting at least 2 Incantatrix levels so that your clones can (ab)use Cooperative Metamagic for your own Persistomancy.

Oh wow, that's amazing and I love the synergy. It doesn't involve any actual spellcasting so it should be legal. Compared to the Naenhoon method it also saves you a swift action, which could be useful not for BOB but for other spells in-combat.

The question is, can it be used to empower a (Su) effect? I doubt it. An SLA, probably, but SLAs pretty clearly fall under the umbrella of "cannot cast spells".

So a clone could assist you when you cast it from your slots, but they couldn't persist each other or persist it when you cast from your 2/day (Su) ability -- which is not actually a loss because your first casting of BOB wouldn't have a clone to assist you anyway. Effectively, your 2/day (Su) ability is what you use to initiate the chain and then you can prepare BOB in your normal slots, expending them with clone-assisted persistomancy as needed to double/triple/etc the speed at which your clone army grows.

The only thing that would make this ideal is a way to use metamagic on (Su) abilities...

[Anthrowhale]

Metanode spell is the only feat I know which reduces metamagic cost for prepared spells by more than one/feat. A limitation is that you can only cast this in an earth node of sufficient power.

[Maryring]

So, I might be missing something, but if the question is how to persist BoB, shouldn't it be possible to just grab a Rod of Persist Metamagic? After all, he's arbitrarily wealthy.

[Elves]

That rod is from Pathfinder, there isn’t one in 3.5. Could it be homebrewed? Of course, it’s just not that classy.

I guess the only way to get (Su) metamagic is the feats from TOM. The Extend one could be worth it though 1/day is annoying.

————

I asked this in the RAW thread but I’d like to hear what you guys think as well:

"This spell creates one or more indistinguishable duplicates of you... The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting."

So if a duplicate created by this spell uses BOB, does that mean the duplicates they create will have 1/4th of their HP, ie 1/16th of yours? Or does the “you” remain fixed, referring to you, the original creature who has the (Su) ability being employed? Even if the latter, does the "at the time of casting" clause make it 1/4 anyway?

If true, it nerfs BOB chaining a bit since you quickly reach the point where the duplicates all have 1HP.

[Maryring]

Huh, you're right. It's got most metamagics, but not persistent. My fault for not reading as closely as I should've.

[Efrate]

Could you acorn of far travel from a strong enough earth node?

[Anthrowhale]

Could you acorn of far travel from a strong enough earth node?

Potentially.

With regards to BOB, I'm assuming that it's 1/4, 1/16, 1/64, etc...

[Elves]

Earth nodes are in the Underdark, I don't know how well an oak tree would grow there. Daylight can't be permanencied unfortunately...what's the simplest way of getting a tree to grow underground? I doubt the magic light from a light spell has the same nutrients as sunlight.


Buildwise, currently looking at wu jen 5/crs1/JPM10/archmage2/incantatrix2, which does require taking Martial Study (White Raven Tactics).

With fractional BAB, this alternative could work -- obviating the need for martial study (WRT) -- IF x could be a class with +1 BAB and +1 CL at 1st that doesn't require more than +3 BAB to enter. However, I haven't found anything. Ruathar's only +.75.

wu jen5/incantatrix2/x1/crs1/JPM10/archmage1

Or alternately, if wu jen 5th level could be swapped with a class that advances wu jen casting and has +.75 BAB.

[Anthrowhale]

Earth nodes are in the Underdark,

If you read close, they don't actually have to be underground, although it's fair to say that's common.

I don't know how well an oak tree would grow there. Daylight can't be permanencied unfortunately...what's the simplest way of getting a tree to grow underground? I doubt the magic light from a light spell has the same nutrients as sunlight.

Continual flame (20' radius light) and Glowing Orb (60' radius light) are permanent. Celestial Brilliance is "brighter than bright sunlight" in a 60' radius and lasts day/level.

Buildwise, currently looking at wu jen 5/crs1/JPM10/archmage2/incantatrix2, which does require taking Martial Study (White Raven Tactics).

With fractional BAB, this alternative could work -- obviating the need for martial study (WRT) -- IF x could be a class with +1 BAB and +1 CL at 1st that doesn't require more than +3 BAB to enter. However, I haven't found anything. Ruathar's only +.75.

wu jen5/incantatrix2/x1/crs1/JPM10/archmage1

Or alternately, if wu jen 5th level could be swapped with a class that advances wu jen casting and has +.75 BAB.

Tainted Spellcaster 1 from Dragon #302 works.

[Elves]

So wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster1/incantatrix2/ruathar1/crusader1/jpm10/archmage1, with fractional BAB, or the Martial Study build I mentioned above without it. That's pretty good. Thanks Anthro.


Using fractional BAB for the Martial Study build you could also dip SacEx1 instead of Archmage 2, and get both Naenhoon free metamagic AND clone-based free metamagic, but that seems unnecessary.


I'm happy with the build then, my only remaining question would be: for the build version that takes Archmage 2nd, what High Arcana would be especially good? Specifically, you could take SLA again so that each clone can create 16 copies of itself instead of 8, but that might be excessive. It also gives you 1 less slot for persisted BOB*.

*Unless Cooperative Metamagic can also be used for spells being cast from items, which I'm not sure of.

[ArtAndor]

Book of Erotic Fantasy has a serious class named Metaphysical Spellshaper

It is a 3 level class that gives you a bonus MM feat, reduces cost of all MM by 1 and allows you to spend your ability scores instead of spell levels to cast them (And it is treatable by restoration). Aside for weird flavor text and a couple of spelling errors, it is a pretty solid class and fits your original build without any issues.

[Elves]

Yeah, but it's third party and laughably OP. With third party stuff allowed I would instead just use a good homebrew PRC from here or Minmaxboards.


Now here's a question:
Is it worth going warblade over crusader for more reliable access to the White Raven Tactics loop, despite it taking more actions?

[Anthrowhale]

So wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster1/incantatrix2/ruathar1/crusader1/jpm10/archmage1, with fractional BAB, or the Martial Study build I mentioned above without it. That's pretty good. Thanks Anthro.

A funky aspect of Tainted Spellcaster is that it explicitly allows you to do nonlinear removal, which is particularly helpful for gish builds.

If a Tainted has one of his levels permanently drained or loses a level due to being raised, he can choose to have it be the highest level of the tainted class he has attained regardless of what class level was most recently gained.

Given this, you could backstory for something like this:

wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster 3/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1

Now drain/resurrect away the tainted spellcaster levels.
->wu jen 4/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1

Checking qualifications here, start by assuming that every prestige class is unqualified, implying only BAB, saves, and skills are available from prestige classes. Therefore, you have BAB+5, enabling qualification for Dragon Slayer 1. With Dragon Slayer 1, you have access to simple/martial weapons and armors to qualify for Spellsword as well as access level 3 arcane spells enabling qualification for Incantatrix. With those class features, the net effect is 8 levels of Wu-jen casting with BAB+5.

-> wu jen 4/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1/crusader 1/jpm10/archmage1

You have BAB 16.5 (or 16 without fractionals) and cast as a Wu Jen 17.

Obviously this is a bit unusual, but it seems to be both RAW and RAI while bending over backwards to check that prestige class prerequisites are always satisfied.

Minor variation: you could use Abjurant Champion 2 instead, although you have to finagle a martial weapon proficiency via feat/elf/outsider/etc...

[Elves]

Yeah, I saw your thread on that when I searched the class. It's sweet and ingenious, I'd say a little much for an NPC, although a simple backstory does occur to me: make the "fiendish" possessor be the Souldrake, the evil entity the Jade Phoenix Mages were created to contain. Early in life, before he was aware of his "true identity" as a reincarnated JPM, the Souldrake drew on the ancient pact binding them to enter his soul and try to take him over. The other Jade Phoenix Mages detected this taint and tracked him down, and using harsh negative energy "surgery" they managed to expulse the Souldrake's taint from him. They then took him into their order as a novice and he became one of them.

Not to get fluffy on ya...

What do you think of the warblade/crusader question by the way?

[Anthrowhale]

What do you think of the warblade/crusader question by the way?

I didn't understand how the WRT loop worked but reliability does sound good.

[Elves]

Body Outside Body doesn't say the clones can't use maneuvers. Of course, chronologically it couldn't, so maybe you find that iffy.

[Anthrowhale]

Body Outside Body doesn't say the clones can't use maneuvers. Of course, it couldn't chronologically, so maybe you find that iffy.

The word 'loop' is confusing me. Perhaps you have this in mind:

If you enabled Shapechange[Chronotryryn] that would enable a true loop. BOB A uses a swift action to WRT on BOB B, then uses a swift action and a standard action to recover it while using arbitrarily a standard action and 2 move actions. BOB B then does the vice versa, then BOB A, BOB B, etc... This seems to work, although a DM might look at you funny when your initiative reaches -10.

The above implies that you only need one BOB + the primary, that you really want Shapechange on both of them, and that Warblade is better than Crusader because you can immediately recover.

[Elves]

With BOB, each new group of 4 clones can immediately use (Su) BOB as a standard action. White Raven Tactics is a swift action. That's a loop isn't it?

Of course, you can do both: 2 levels of Archmage, Supernatural Transformation (BOB) at 15th and (Shapechange) at 18th. Calling the clones Bobs is great.

(But yeah, guess it needs to be warblade.)

[ArtAndor]

Yeah, but it's third party and laughably OP. With third party stuff allowed I would instead just use a good homebrew PRC from here or Minmaxboards.

My Apologies. I completely forgot that it was 3rd party at the moment of writing my comment.

[Malphegor]

I'm not sure if persist is on there, but a spellscale might be handy to consider for this anyway- be a human with dragonblood-induced scaley skin, meditate each day on a dragon god, you get a limited-use metamagic for that day.

Races of the Dragon, aka 'Gwendolyn's writing the most awesome race stuff she can' since that seems to be her calling card in books she was involved in, haha.

[Anthrowhale]

With BOB, each new group of 4 clones can immediately use (Su) BOB as a standard action. White Raven Tactics is a swift action. That's a loop isn't it?

I see.

It's slightly unclear because of rounding issues. You are supposed to round down by default but up when rolling for hit points. Is BOB invoking the general rule or the special rule? There is no rolling going on even though it's about hit points so "no"? Or is there some text elsewhere?

[Mato]

Archmage's SLA ability plus Supernatural Transformation feat from SS gives an infinite shadow clone army.

Supernatural transformation only works with innate SLAs, not the archmage's class features, and doesn't actually grant any extra uses so it's not infinite anyway.

The top methods for arcane metamagic reduction are incantatrix^{class: pgtf}, spell dancer^{class: mof}, undead battery^{feat: age of mortals}, metamagic item^{infusion: eberron}, and tainted caster^{class: UA/HoH}. You'll also find residual magic's lingering metamagic^{feat: cm} option highly applicable.