Why the hate on 5e?

[Sigreid]

There's also the fact that you need to roll 18 Intelligence to cast 9th spells as a young person, but only 16 if you wait for old age modifiers to kick in. (AFB but around age 90 you will have +2 Int, IIRC + 3 Wis, and -4ish to Con and -6 to Strength, unless you've stolen yourself a new, young body.)

AD&D magic is the best thing about D&D.

There were a lot of ways to raise your stats, if your DM was willing.

[Pex]

It is balance after a fashion; it's basically "you can get really powerful effects but at a huge potential cost" - the way magic in classical stories works. It means non-casters are balanced in that they are immensely less powerful but they can use their powers freely while casters have to pull out their world-changing abilities only if they absolutely must, since it's always risky.

I should not have to risk my character committing suicide to do what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm glad D&D has moved away from such thinking.

[Willie the Duck]

There were a lot of ways to raise your stats, if your DM was willing.

And change your age. And come back from the dead if you fail a system shock (less so if you fail a resurrection survival, IIRC). For AD&D, one of the biggest constraints is that all of these consequence-based restrictions on powerful abilities had cost-benefit analyses that were very campaign-dependent, based on how easy or hard an individual DM made it for you to counteract the negatives.

[MaxWilson]

And change your age. And come back from the dead if you fail a system shock (less so if you fail a resurrection survival, IIRC). For AD&D, one of the biggest constraints is that all of these consequence-based restrictions on powerful abilities had cost-benefit analyses that were very campaign-dependent, based on how easy or hard an individual DM made it for you to counteract the negatives.

Sorry, I didn't quite follow that. One of the biggest constraints on what, precisely, is that some campaigns make resurrection/etc. easier than others? What is being constrained, in your view?

[Willie the Duck]

Sorry, I didn't quite follow that. One of the biggest constraints on what, precisely, is that some campaigns make resurrection/etc. easier than others? What is being constrained, in your view?

Sorry, quick posts at work again. Should have clarified. I was working off Sigreid's "There were a lot of ways to raise your stats, if your DM was willing." To clarify, one of the constraints on the ability of aging hits, attribute loss, and so on to act as a constraint (so, constraint on a constraint) is that it is very campaign-dependent with regards to how severe of a hit such things are.

[MaxWilson]

Sorry, quick posts at work again. Should have clarified. I was working off Sigreid's "There were a lot of ways to raise your stats, if your DM was willing." To clarify, one of the constraints on the ability of aging hits, attribute loss, and so on to act as a constraint (so, constraint on a constraint) is that it is very campaign-dependent with regards to how severe of a hit such things are.

Oh, sure. Ditto material component requirements (in both AD&D and 5E), and adventure pace (5 minute workday or marathon? marathon mode is especially hard in AD&D because healing is far more expensive than in 5E unless you've got a Ring of Vampiric Regeneration or something) and how easy the DM makes it to find good magic items/trustworthy henchmen. DM style has a profound impact on gameplay in AD&D, and in 5E.

[Zilant]

Spoiler: Rambling Complaint

Show

My biggest contention with 5e is the quality of the books being made. I don’t know how silly this might sound but that’s a pretty big deal to me. I have 3.x edition books that are something like 15 years old and while they may be a little worn on the corners and the spine they are still intact and I still feel comfortable tossing them in a backpack and traveling with them.
The construction of the 5e books is laughably pathetic. When 5e was first release I bought two players handbooks and both have fallen out of their spine at the binding. And this happened within weeks of purchase. A recent(days ago) book I’ve bought did the same.
I can open my monster manual without the front portion from A-G falling out. I often write in my own copies of the books (notes, errata, etc.) and have been doing so since I’ve started playing. In my 5e books I went to erase some error I made and the beige background swirls as well as the printed text started coming off. I don’t like flipping through loose pages like
that.
Can I turn in 3 copies of my 5e PHB that have fallen apart for one that properly printed and bound?

That WotC (or hasbro or whoever) decided on $50 msrp is a joke. How is someone who knows the book is going to fall apart in a matter of weeks expect to support a brick and mortar by paying for a trash copy when you could purchase a (still trash) copy for $30 (from wotc direct no less haha take that brick and mortar).

Not even mentioning other, albeit minor, gripes about the content like ASK YOUR DM and trash halfling art. Which are really minor if my book wasn’t falling apart while I I’m flipping through it.

Someone, anyone, feel free to correct me

TL;DR: WotC charges an asinine amount for a books made to last as long as a roll of toilet paper.

[EggKookoo]

TL;DR: WotC charges an asinine amount for a books made to last as long as a roll of toilet paper.

FWIW, my 5e books are holding up well.

[Aelyn]

FWIW, my 5e books are holding up well.

Likewise. My group has about 10-12 books (including 2 PHB, 1 MM and 1 DMG purchased on their respective releases) and run 1 session a week, which feels like the high end of standard usage to me, and so far the only issue we've had is some of the spell pages in one of the PHBs going a little loose. All the others are absolutely fine.

[GlenSmash!]

No problems with mine, though I have known others that had a bad copy of the first PHB printing.

They contacted WotC and WotC replaced them.

[Zilant]

No problems with mine, though I have known others that had a bad copy of the first PHB printing.

They contacted WotC and WotC replaced them.

I’ll contact WotC for sure but I suppose my contention is that it shouldn’t be an issue in the first place.

[ad_hoc]

I’ll contact WotC for sure but I suppose my contention is that it shouldn’t be an issue in the first place.

It isn't their fault.

The company they used to print their books messed up.

They give out replacements no questions asked. You can't ask for anything more than that.

[MaxWilson]

It isn't their fault.

The company they used to print their books messed up.

They give out replacements no questions asked. You can't ask for anything more than that.

Note that he DID say that he's had recent books fall apart too, as well as the first printing. I haven't had that recent experience (though I did experience the bad binding issues with earlier printings) but if I had I'd feel entitled to be angry with WotC about it.

[Arkhios]

Note that he DID say that he's had recent books fall apart too, as well as the first printing. I haven't had that recent experience (though I did experience the bad binding issues with earlier printings) but if I had I'd feel entitled to be angry with WotC about it.

Still not WotC's fault. They don't print the books themselves with their own printing press, because they don't have one. It's entirely the press's fault.

As for the general condition of my books, I have my own copies of PHB, DMG, MM, SCAG, VGTM, XGTE, and GGTR, each from their first printings, and all of them are still in pristine condition, regardless of their individual ages.
Bad copies are needles in the haystack. Blaming WotC for vanishingly few bad bindings, that they don't do themselves, is petty and childish.

[stoutstien]

It isn't their fault.

The company they used to print their books messed up.

They give out replacements no questions asked. You can't ask for anything more than that.

This. I had 3 books with bad binding but all where replaced no questions.

[Zilant]

WotC (or hasbro or whoever let that slip through) is responsible for the quality control of their products.

That your books are PRISTINE is great, for you.
The PHB I bought and have owned for less than 24 hours has a defect (not even considering the erasability of printed text), albeit minor, which seems a telltale sign of WotC’s continued lack of quality control. The issue isn’t vanishing and as a consumer who purchased a product I expect to last for many years to come (at least as long as my 3rd ed books) this is a frustrating position. Especially given this book is a gift for someone I’m trying to introduce to the hobby and I have to gift it with the qualifier that they may have a book that’s going to fall apart sooner or later because of a known fault coming from the manufacturer. I hope it doesn’t. I don’t really like giving gifts that are defunct from the get-go. At least they didn’t pay for it I guess.

Perhaps if you are looking for needles in a haystack I may be your guy. Or maybe issues with the CHEAP bookbinding have some merit. From the first printing (and the 3rd or 4th run) I’ve wondered how many others have has issues and it seems I’m not the only one.

[Keravath]

Spoiler: Rambling Complaint

Show

My biggest contention with 5e is the quality of the books being made. I don’t know how silly this might sound but that’s a pretty big deal to me. I have 3.x edition books that are something like 15 years old and while they may be a little worn on the corners and the spine they are still intact and I still feel comfortable tossing them in a backpack and traveling with them.
The construction of the 5e books is laughably pathetic. When 5e was first release I bought two players handbooks and both have fallen out of their spine at the binding. And this happened within weeks of purchase. A recent(days ago) book I’ve bought did the same.
I can open my monster manual without the front portion from A-G falling out. I often write in my own copies of the books (notes, errata, etc.) and have been doing so since I’ve started playing. In my 5e books I went to erase some error I made and the beige background swirls as well as the printed text started coming off. I don’t like flipping through loose pages like
that.
Can I turn in 3 copies of my 5e PHB that have fallen apart for one that properly printed and bound?

That WotC (or hasbro or whoever) decided on $50 msrp is a joke. How is someone who knows the book is going to fall apart in a matter of weeks expect to support a brick and mortar by paying for a trash copy when you could purchase a (still trash) copy for $30 (from wotc direct no less haha take that brick and mortar).

Not even mentioning other, albeit minor, gripes about the content like ASK YOUR DM and trash halfling art. Which are really minor if my book wasn’t falling apart while I I’m flipping through it.

Someone, anyone, feel free to correct me

TL;DR: WotC charges an asinine amount for a books made to last as long as a roll of toilet paper.

Just to join the chorus but my 5e books are about 3 years old and see at least weekly use. I also flip through them looking for a reference relatively frequently and they are still in great (almost new) shape.

My 1e AD&D books are a bit more worn but they saw at least a decade's more use. (However, none of them are falling apart either). (I also have 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e books still in great shape though they have seen less use in general than either 1e or 5e).

I'd say that you either received a bad batch of books, use them much more than average or are perhaps a bit harsh on your books somehow.

[EggKookoo]

WotC (or hasbro or whoever let that slip through) is responsible for the quality control of their products.

And they own up to that responsibility by replacing faulty copies. That's what responsibility means.

[Zilant]

I'd say that you either received a bad batch of books, use them much more than average or are perhaps a bit harsh on your books somehow.

I don’t treat them so harsh as to warrant the pages falling out in clean ‘portions’ or ‘chunks’. I don’t treat them harshly at all as a matter of fact, though I do flip through them often for character building and whatnot. It seems more like the glue they use isn’t particularly effective.

It isn’t every book that ends up falling apart either. I own a few of the adventure paths and even have a PHB that is intact (the one I use because my trash copy is still on the shelf, next to the trash copy of the MM and the intact DMG).

[Arkhios]

And they own up to that responsibility by replacing faulty copies. That's what responsibility means.

Indeed. Responsibility and Guilt are not even synonymous. Legally, WotC has the responsibility to replace faulty copies to their customers, but the printing company is responsible for the quality of the actual printed product that WotC has paid for them to produce. WotC is customer to the printing company, and just like WotC is legally responsible to replace faulty products to their customers (us), the printing company is legally responsible to compensate any faulty products to their customer (WotC). The printing company is the company guilty of faulty quality, and thus, is to blame for it. Not WotC